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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    S3E21: The Die Is Cast

    Odo and Garak are reported as missing and the Cardassians say they have a ship looking for them. O'Brien is called to Ops to take a look at strange sensor readings, but when he arrives a whole fleet of Romulan ships decloaks, followed by Cardassian ones. They ignore the station and go straight into the wormhole.

    Garak and Tain are talking about old times, and Tain admits that he missed not having Garak around. He tells him that when they return back to Cardassia, he will be in a position to get revenge on anyone he wants. Though Garak is getting a bit spooked when Tain says he will have to get rid of his old housekeeper because she knows too much. Garak meets the Romulan colonel leading the Tal Shiar forces, who isn't happy about outsiders getting involved. Tain says that Garak is loyal and can be trusted, and he thinks that Garak should be interogating Odo. Odo immediately starts mocking Garak for falling in line behind Tain and thinking he isn't being used.

    On the station, Sisko and his staff are watching a message from Tain that was send to the Cardassian and Romulan governments, which explains that the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar plan to wipe out the Founders and then simply starve the Jem'Hadar to death. But in the meantime they expect the Jem'Hadar to attack the Alpha Quadrant in revenge, so they better prepare their defenses. The admiral from Intelligence says the governments are denying any involvement, but neither of them is trying to do anything to stop the fleet. And neither is Starfleet. Sisko wants to go and try to rescue Odo (how exactly?), but he is ordered to keep the Defiant to protect the station. So he decides to take the Defiant to scouting the other side of the wormhole.

    Tain and Colonel Lomak explain their plan to Garak and given their information about Jem'Hadar forces, they don't expect any reinforcement reaching the world of the Founders for seven hours after they start their attack. But they want Garak to check if Odo might know about any defenses of the planet that were not in the reports Starfleet had shared with the Romulans. Garak says it would be impossible to torture a shapeshifter, but Tain says they have a new device that should prevent him form changing his shape, which Lomak never heard of, much to his annoyance. Tain tells Garak that the Romulans can do the interrogation, but Garak insist that he will do it himself.

    On the Defiant the cloaking device is failing and Edington quickly comes forward to admit that he sabotaged it. The admiral ordered him to not let Sisko take the Defiant through the wormhole, and Sisko can't really fault him for that. He wants someone else to take Edington's post on the bridge, but Edington asks to stay at his station and promises that he won't be doing anything else to interfere with the ship, and thinks that he's the most qualified for the job. Sisko is really unhappy about the situation but sticks to his principle of not questioning the word of his crew.

    Garak goes to interrogate Odo and has the Romulans set up the machine that inhibits Odo's shapeshifting ability. Odo mocks and taunts him about trying to threaten him with torture, but when Garak explains what the device does Odo finds the effects quite disconcerning. Garak is certain that there must be things that Odo did not put into his report and he wants to know them. Unable to return to his rest state, Odo starts getting brittle and suffering severe pain, but Garak appears to be the more scared of them. Contrary of how Tain described Garak's interrogations earlier, he doesn't show cold hearted confidence and isn't enjoying himself at all. And Odo keeps stabbing back by continue to taunt him for that. But eventually he gives in and admits that he's always wishing to return to the other Changelings, even though he resents them. Garak takes that as being the best that he will get and quickly turns off the device. He tells Tain that Odo didn't tell him anything and never will. Tain wants to get rid of Odo, but Lomak wants to keep him and take him to Romulus in case some Founders survive their attack and will have to be dealt with in the future. Tain goes to the bridge, but Lomak stops Garak to ask him what his interest in Odo is, that he objected to having him killed? He will be watching Garak very closely.

    The fleet goes into position above the home of the Founders and Tain orders all ships to decloak and start firing all phasers and torpedos at them. After the initial salvo, he has a Romulan officer report the effects, but according to the scanners they didn't kill any of the lifeforms on the planet. Garak detects a false sensor signal being transmited from the planet and a fleet of 150 Jem'Hadar ship appears to attack. Lomak takes command of the fleet and orders the ships to move closer together to cover each other, as they won't survive trying to break out of the encirclement, but they are quickly suffering heavy losses. Communication on the command ship breaks down and Lomak tells Tain to take over while he goes down to engineering himself. Garak slips away in the chaos to get Odo from his cell and get to their ship. They are stopped by Lomak who hands Odo a key to get to the shuttle hangar. Because he is a Founder spy and they don't want Odo to come to any harm. Tain came up with the plan to attack the planet, and when the Founders learned about it they did everything to encourage its progress. Garak tells Odo to get the shuttle ready, but he has to go to the bridge and get Tain before they leave. But Tain is done with everything, being hugely disappointed in himself that he allowed himself to be tricked by that and not having noticed Lomak's treachery. Garak begs him to come with him, but Odo shows up and knocks Garak out to carry him to the shuttle.

    Their shuttle keeps getting hit as they try to make it out of the battle and Garak confesses to Odo that he very much regrets what he has done and asks for his forgiveness, even if it won't mean much now. Odo tells him that he can very much understand the temptation of seeing an opportunity to return home. The Defiant arrives at the battle and destroys the Jem'Hadar ships attackinng them, and they are beamed to safety. They fight their way out and none of the other ships try to pursue them.

    On the station, Garak returns to his shop that is still in ruins and starts to clean up. Odo comes by to thank him for not mentioning the interrogation in his report to Starfleet. He also tells him that Quark is already getting in line to rent the shop for another one of his questionable expansion ideas, but Garak thinks he will rebuild it.
    "You know what the sad part of this is, Odo? I'm a very good tailor."

    --

    Destroyed Runabout #3

    This episode is completely different from the first half of this story, but they are both great and complement each other really well. In the first part, Odo and Garak had both been playing their usual acts. Odo being the slightly annoyed professional and Garak deflecting any demand for clear answers with witty and unbelievable jokes. Here things become much more personal. Odo almost always is mocking or shouting at Garak in all their conversations to not trust and work with Tain, which is of course in some part to it being his one shot at saving himself, but I also got the strong impression that he is trying to help Garak to save him from himself. Odo sees Garak as someone who is getting used by people who have power over him, and he just isn't someone who stands by when he sees someone in a vulnerable moment getting exploited. And as many times before, he displays his skill to talk to people in a way to which they will best respond. With Garak, he is constantly shoting down and illusions that Tain is giving him power and trust again. And Garak also is a former professional torturer, so probably someone who isn't very sensitive and you need to hit quite hart to get through to.

    And it work quite well. Garak is still very clearly Garak, but this episode he isn't making any jokes, and he also doesn't deny the things Odo says about him. He does maintain is cheerful expression, but he doesn't seem to have his usual unshakeable confidence that everything will go the way he plans. He actually seems quite a bit spooked most of the time. He comes across as someone who knows that he's being toyed with but he just can't get himself to give up the little bit of hope he has and call Tain out like he usually would. When everything goes south, Garak still becomes quite desparate to save Tain.

    The small clash between Sisko and Edington is also a nice little addition that actually fits the themes of the main story. Edington betrayed Sisko because Sisko betrayed their superior, and he did what he did to force Sisko to obey his duty. Morally Sisko can't fault him for that, and the ideal that everyone in Starfleet should be able to trust each other unquestioningly is very important to him. So when Edington swears that he hasn't done anything else to the ship and will follow any order the best as he can if Sisko wants to continue, Sisko feels that he has to trust and forgive him. He's still really pissed, though. And what I find really interesting is the question if he is more pissed of Edington having gone behind his back to enforce direct orders from above, or about feeling betrayed about it. Strictly speaking, Edington did not betray Sisko. Sisko is the one who did the forbidden thing. But then Edington pretended to support him in doing the forbidden thing, but actually meant to stop him. Edington did the same thing he was doing himself, but Edington actually has the legal justification while Sisko does not. Still feels like betrayal.

    That small scenes does quite a lot to put the themes of the episode into focus. It's about trust and conflicting loyalties and great ambiguity about who is betraying who and how much you can forgive it. That Tain had Garak banished and tried to assassinate him doesn't seem to bother Garak, and he seems okay with Tain saying that he can't forgive Garak's betrayal, but will try to forget it. That is something between them. But when Tain wants to kill his loyal housekeeper just because she might be a weakness used against him, Garak seems to be very disturbed. In the end, Odo is the one who never betrayed anyone and who always stood true to his moral conviction that he can not support the Founders, even though he really, really wishes he could join them and they always beg him to do it. And he also is the one who explicitly forgives the terrible things done to him by someone who couldn't resist the temptation to make the wrong choices. He knows how hard it is, and he doesn't fault anyone for failing.

    And in light of all this, the twists at the end are fantastic. First the realization that they walked into a trap, and then the reveal that the Founders have been playing them the whole time. Founder spies do all kinds of amazing infiltrations and sabotages in the future, but I think none of those ever come anywhere close to making them seem like such incredibly devious masterminds.
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    S3E22: Explorers

    Bashir is getting hit on by an air-headed darbo girl with a stupid medical excuse. Dax spots the exact perfect moment to be worst wingman ever.

    Sisko wants to build an ancient Bajoran wooden spaceship that according to legend used solar sails to travel to Cardassia.

    Spoiler
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    The only thing that isn't historically accurate is modern artificial gravity, because of budget restraints. The thing is done and Sisko and Jake take off. Jake tells Sisko that he's dabbling in writing.

    Bashir's rival in medical school is visiting the station. He finds it very annoying that she comes and expects a confrontation, but she doesn't really notice him.

    Sisko boat gets a broken mast. Jake thinks Sisko should get a new girlfriend. The boat enters some kind of space anomaly that pulls it along at faster than light speed. Sisko tries to call the station to tug them back

    Bashir and O'Brien get drunk. Later Bashir goes to talk to her, and she's quite nice, but she never had actually met him and always only saw his name on grades list. She does mention that she thinks Bashir might actually have gotten the better job, which she thinks sounds much more interesting than her own.

    Sisko and Jake get rescued by Dukat, since the anomaly had pulled them all the way to Cardassia.

    --

    In this episode nothing happens. It's pure filler.

    I won't even start about the science here. This is the time the sci-fi hardness of Star Trek is down do 0.

    A pretty terrible episode through and through. Better than Meridian, but worse than Melora.

    Is Bashir supposed to be British? He's been drunken singing British songs with O'Brien, and I've been wondering about this before.
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
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    Is Bashir supposed to be British? He's been drunken singing British songs with O'Brien, and I've been wondering about this before.
    I seem to remember from the episode where his parents show up they both have british accents. So I think so. (Obviously Alexander Siddig lived most of his life in England)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    S3E21: The Die Is Cast
    This epsiode marks the start of the ''complcated serial" DS9 and moves away from the "story of the week, watch in any order" format. It gives you a great pay off after two and a hlaf years of buliding things up.

    The founder homeworld being, ahem, close to the Wormhole, isolated and unguarded was a HUGE red flag....even the first time I watched the epsiode way back when.

    It's a great moment, as soon as you get to the ''how many Jem Hardar ships are coming out of the Nebula?". For context, just about all of TNG and DS9 has been models up to this point. This means you saw a LOT of slow moving two dimensional battles. TNG is infamous for ''evade patter delta"....and then they would, er, tip the model to the side a bit. And TNG had a lot of Data Talk for a battle-"the ship has spun around and under us and fired(but we never SEE that happen....)''.

    Also Star Trek had an oddly small universe. We never see much more then five or so ships(aka models) on the screen at the same time. Even when they talk about a ''fleet" they only talk about like twenty ships. And along the same lines the Obsidian Order/Tal Shair attack fleet is small too.

    But then...then...the Jem'Harda come out of the nebula....with 150 ships. More ships then have ever even been mentioned in Trek. They are CGI ships, of course, but it's a great moment to say ''good bye small Trek".

    The anti changling devise is a bit odd: why did Odo not just smash it? And is not just ''normal humanoid Odo a decent threat?" At the end he knocks out Garak no problem...but does not shapeshift into a ''Tarzokian punching beast".

    And the Lovok Changeling frees Odo sure as ''Ape does not harm Ape"....but then just lets him go into a huge space batlle with a ''good luck?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Is Bashir supposed to be British? He's been drunken singing British songs with O'Brien, and I've been wondering about this before.
    It's... weird. We get to meet Dr. Bashir's parents in the episode "Dr.Bashir, I Presume?" and the accents are a mess. Bashir's father, Richard, has an East London accent whereas his mother, Amsha, is portrayed as English speaking but Indian-accented. Why Julian speaks with a clear Received Pronunciation accent isn't really explained.

    His apparent English/Indian heritage makes perfect sense, at least in the 1990's when DS9 was made. Britain still had strong links with India through the Raj and the East India Company until the end of World War 2 when India gained it's independence. After that, Indian immigrants to Britain became increasingly common, as was settling in London where housing was cheap and industry available. If I remember right, they're now one of, if not the, biggest of our integrated communities.
    In 2019, Julian Bashir would easily be a 3rd or even 4th generation descendant of an Indian immigrant. In the late 2360's when DS9 is set, after the Eugenics Wars and the huge cultural shifts that occur between the 20th and 24th centuries, it's a bit of an anachronism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    It's... weird. We get to meet Dr. Bashir's parents in the episode "Dr.Bashir, I Presume?" and the accents are a mess. Bashir's father, Richard, has an East London accent whereas his mother, Amsha, is portrayed as English speaking but Indian-accented. Why Julian speaks with a clear Received Pronunciation accent isn't really explained.

    His apparent English/Indian heritage makes perfect sense, at least in the 1990's when DS9 was made. Britain still had strong links with India through the Raj and the East India Company until the end of World War 2 when India gained it's independence. After that, Indian immigrants to Britain became increasingly common, as was settling in London where housing was cheap and industry available. If I remember right, they're now one of, if not the, biggest of our integrated communities.
    In 2019, Julian Bashir would easily be a 3rd or even 4th generation descendant of an Indian immigrant. In the late 2360's when DS9 is set, after the Eugenics Wars and the huge cultural shifts that occur between the 20th and 24th centuries, it's a bit of an anachronism.
    Im not sure why she couldnt have been a recent immigrant from india who met his father. Its not like immigration is going to just STOP one day. Just look at how eager people are to go to entirely new PLANETS and form colonies! So her family moves to england when she is a child, she has her accent, meets julians dad, they fall in love,
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    and perhaps send him to private schools in the fancier parts of england where he picks up the accent.
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    It's 400 years in the future, the Federation is a utopia, but England still hangs onto classism via regional accents.
    Now with half the calories!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The New Bruceski View Post
    It's 400 years in the future, the Federation is a utopia, but England still hangs onto classism via regional accents.
    Where was it hinted there were classism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The New Bruceski View Post
    It's 400 years in the future, the Federation is a utopia, but England still hangs onto classism via regional accents.
    It doesnt have to be classism, its just thats how everyone talked at his school so he picked it up. Or maybe there is some classism and he knew people take you more serious if you speak in a refined accent rather than asking where to find the apples and pears to reach the security office.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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    And maybe actors just talk the way they normally talk and they don't have every actor learn a made up 24th century dialect that reflects athenic developments in the next 400 years.

    This is after all an episode with a wooden space ship build with a hand saw.

    What I found much more troublesome was the racial segregation for couples. Irish O'Brien has a Japanese wife, and the alien Trill is into Klingons. But black American Sisko exclusively has interest in black women. The sample group is small, but as a European teenager I noticed and it bothered me.
    Last edited by Yora; 2019-07-29 at 02:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    It doesnt have to be classism, its just thats how everyone talked at his school so he picked it up. Or maybe there is some classism and he knew people take you more serious if you speak in a refined accent rather than asking where to find the apples and pears to reach the security office.
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    We can guess why he didn't pick up the accent in his formative school years, based on the spoiler you posted previously. Although I suppose he did intentionally reinvent himself even going so far as to change his name to Julian, so the idea of him consciously choosing a new accent to go with it isn't entirely out of the question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    And maybe actors just talk the way they normally talk and they don't have every actor learn a made up 24th century dialect that reflects athenic developments in the next 400 years.
    More to the point, why does ANYONE have an accent? Everyone is wired up to a universal translator anyway, why bother programming it to simulate English spoken with an Indian accent, or an RP accent, when "English" is the convenient choice for the audience rather than the character? (Assuming that you're watching the show in English, of course).

    For all we know, Jean Luc Picard speaks only French; from his perspective, all of his colleagues are speaking French via his preferred translation but he has deliberately configured his translator so that to anyone listening in English, *he* sounds English.

    The obvious answer, I think, is that it was just overlooked at the casting stage. Alexander Siddig was picked for the role of Bashir because they wanted someone who could portray arrogant, wet-behind-the-ears and a little bit out of his depth, which his perfect accent does wonderfully. When they reached "Dr. Bashir, I presume?" they then needed actors who looked like they could be his parents, TV being a visual medium and all, and didn't worry too much beyond that.

    So, to cut a very long story short and just answer your question, Dr. Bashir is British - primarily because Alexander Siddig is English/Sudanese and grew up in Britain, and they altered the character's background to allow him to fit.
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    They've either directly stated or heavily implied that pretty much all of humanity speaks English in Trek. Just like they universally accepted contemporary American leftists attitudes on just about everything.

    Patrick Stewart being written as not just a Frenchman but a passionately patriotic Frenchman in seasons 1-2 is bizarre. Like, I understand Roddenberry had his own ideas for who would get the role of Captain and was talked into casting Stewart at some point, but you'd think at that point they'd go in and revise the character's name and origins to reflect the actor now in the role. I'm sure there's a interview or something where that decision to go through with Picard as is got explained, but given the writing around him I'm assuming that Roddenberry became a Francophile at some point in the 80's and just really wanted that character to be that come hell or high water and like many things immediately got his way. Though it's especially weird given how sanctimonious they are on the subject of nationalism.

    Anyways, I treat Trek and most any similar work of speculative fiction like anime, the actor should capture the intended tone of their character but don't really think of what language or dialect they're actually supposed to be speaking and how that would rationally influence things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    What I found much more troublesome was the racial segregation for couples. Irish O'Brien has a Japanese wife, and the alien Trill is into Klingons. But black American Sisko exclusively has interest in black women. The sample group is small, but as a European teenager I noticed and it bothered me.
    I think the portrail is more Sisko is a one woman only family man. Unlike Kirk or Picard he does not have a long string of realationships/one night stands. He met the woman of his dreams, married her and started a family. When she died, Sisko was very tramatised...for several seasons. Jake really bends over backwards, in lots of epsiodes, to get his dad to even consider dating again. And Jakes pushing, and a couple other things, do get Sisko out of his shell. But he is still a one woman type of guy, so he focuses on Cassday.

    Really though it's a super high bar to set to say each character MUST have some interracial realtionship. After all, in the 24th century...everyone from Earth is just Human. More then just about any other Trek, all the main characters do like ''people that don't look like them". Quark, Rom and Nog like females of just about any race. Jax is very open to all races, and Bashir is slightly less so. We see plenty of Cardassian and Bajorin mixing too.

    And...oh...note that Sisko IS very much attracted to white Dax....and he DID sleep with her mirror double :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    What I found much more troublesome was the racial segregation for couples. Irish O'Brien has a Japanese wife, and the alien Trill is into Klingons. But black American Sisko exclusively has interest in black women. The sample group is small, but as a European teenager I noticed and it bothered me.
    I am not sure I by that. While it is a definite truth that Hollywood has a bias against black men dating white women, Star Trek, including DS9, has always pushed the boundaries for interracial couples, and Sisko is literally the only black character I can think of in all of trek who hasn't been in an interracial romance at some point.

    Edit: Wait, also Tuvok.
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    Deep Space Nine is peak progress. From there it's only down.
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    S3E23: Family Business

    Quark is visited by a Ferengi who introduces himself as Brunt, FCA. And slaps a seal on the door that this business is closed. He demands a full audit of Quark's finances. After several small bribes, Quark gets informed that he is investigated for failing to ensure his mother is not doing any business. He has to go to Ferenginar and get her to make a confession so he can pay the fines and open his bar again. Rom wants to come along, but Quark wants him to stay, because he'll only try to support her.

    Jake mentioned to Sisko that the captain he thinks he should meet is coming to the station again. Dax is getting super nosy and somehow already knows about it. She agrees that he should meet her, and Curzon would already be trying to get her first.

    Quark and Rom arrive at their house and invite Brunt, FCA, inside.
    "My house is my house."
    "As is all of its contents."
    Their mother comes to greet them, and she offends everyone by wearing clothes and talking to a stranger. She also immediately refuses to confess to any wrongdoings.

    Odo is unhappy with O'Brien and Bashir working on the lock of Quark's bar to get their dart board.

    Quark is arguing with his mother, Rom is happy to be back home.

    Sisko meets Captain Yates.

    Quark and Rom are fighting and their mother has to pull ears. Quark goes to the FCA where he has to pay a fee for every little thing. In the end, Quark is able to get the whole thing hidden under the rug because it's just an embarassment for all Ferengi society that a woman was making such huge amounts of money.

    --

    This is unbelievably boring. The social issue is way over the top. Nothing more to say.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    I love DS9, but I remember the Ferengi episodes as being really, really bad. Quark has some really good scenes and characterisation, but they all come when he's interacting with non-Ferengi. Once the focus shifts to Quark-plus-Random-Ferengi-of-the-week, it goes downhill fast.

    I think the problem is that the Ferengi were designated early on as the strawman/comic relief alien species and never really got any development past that point. Their culture was never developed in any depth, so any story that tries to rely on it falls apart.
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  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    These two quotes in sequence are just hilarious


    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Deep Space Nine is peak progress. From there it's only down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    S3E23: Family Business


    This is unbelievably boring. The social issue is way over the top. Nothing more to say.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    The first two Ferengi episodes were actually really good. I very much enjoyed The Nagus and Profit Motive (also The House of Quark). Prophet Motive and Family Business were dreadful.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    i think its the failed build up. The story is trying to make it important or matter about Quark's mom making money and wearing clothes, but there wasn't enough coverage beforehand to really get into the matter. There is something like one reference to females not wearing clothes when the Ferengi show up on TNG, but there is not any other mentions before this episode, from what i recall. The only real moment of ferengi women not making money was in Rules of Acquisition, that introduced the Dosi, and the Karemma, featuring Pel. Do to reasons, Pel is left off the hook. That really undersells Family Business, making it bizarre as to why it matters. If it was such a big deal, then Pel should have gotten more of a response than the Grand Nagus saying "Shame on you!"

    I don't the Ferengi ever worked as intended villains, which was the franchise's original plan. Then they dropped to comic relief, but then they don't work here either. Ferengi are a really bad cariacture of I guess how Roddenberry viewed capitalists. Nor is the Franchise really able to do anything with them. That's an issue for all of their later appearances.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    The ferengi COULD have been decent antagonists, along the small scale pirate type of thing. Basically, their giant heads could have easily been used to hold giant brains, making them physically not that imposing, but really tricky to deal with. Instead they were basically greedy goblins. And as was said earlier, when its just quark he is great, he shows off interesting aspects of how his people think that are just great. Arguing logic through a lens of capitalism with a vulcan and winning, arguing with the klingons dealing with honor and pulling it off because he knew just what buttons to press, it made you really enjoy the concept of his species and its profit above almost all attitude. It was a great alternate culture to the federation and it made sense. But the stupid stuff with women being naked and not being allowed to make profit always felt like they basically said, "Hmm, quark makes ferengi look too good, lets throw in some unjustified misogyny and make them never have a problem with other women acting differently, just their own for some reason."
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    One of the problems I always had with the Ferengi is that they aren't particularly good at the whole "relentless capitalism" thing.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Yeah, the problem with Ferengi as antagonists is that they can never be threatening because there's literally nothing they're good at.

    Their technology is worse (or at least no better) than the Federation, they're fewer in number than the Federation, they're physically smaller and weaker than the average member of the Federation, and they aren't any threat in groups since they're constantly backstabbing each other and selling each other out. The one thing that they should be good at is having a strong economy since that's the whole point of their culture, but they aren't allowed to be good at that either since in Star Trek world, a moneyless planned economy is supposed to be the ideal even though it makes no sense.

    So you can see how they ended up as comic relief. Trouble is, they're not inherently very funny, so they don't work well as that either. Quark is funny, but that's because he's Quark (and also because Armin Shimerman did a really good job with the role).
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    I actually really like the ferengi episodes.


    Apparently when they were planning to make a new series after Enterprise and the pitch was that it would take place 500 years after TNG era. In that time period, after the galaxy was more or less at fully explored and at relative peace, the ferengi rather than the federation were the dominant power in the galaxy because their practicality won out over Federation idealism. I would really have liked to have seen that, its a shame the show fell through.
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    smile Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    S3E24: Shakar

    Sisko gets called from a dart game with O'Brien because the Bajoran government has an urgent message for him. Sisko goes to Kira to deliver the bad news personally. The First Minister of Bajor has died during the night. Which didn't come completely surprising and shouldn't cause any major disruptions. But his successor is Kai Winn.

    Kira isn't happy with Winn being both Kai and First Minister, and resting on Bareil's laurels for having made peace with the Cardassians. Soon after Winn comes to the station to meet Kira. Making a wonderful entrance by asking if the memorial shrine for Bareil is for the First Minister. The reason for her visit is that the government has plans for a major food production project that can be completed in time for the next growing season, but they need heavy equipment that is currently used by a group that refuses to give it back before the end of their lease. Since the leader of those farmers is Kira's old boss from the war, Winn wants her to go and speak with him.

    Quark wants to make money with running bets on O'Brien winning at dart.

    Kira goes to visit her old boss Shakar and others of her old friends. Of course, they don't want to postpone their own plans so the government can squeeze in a big project on short notice. Shakar agrees to talk to Winn, but when Kira gives her the news, Winn isn't at all happy with it. Instead, she sends the police to arrest Shakar the next day. Kira and Shakar knock out the two officers. Shakar tells Kira she should stay out of it, but she wants to go hiding in the hills with Shakar and his people. She tells him that the police has as many former rebels in their ranks as they do and hiding won't be easy, but Shakar is confident that former rebels won't be shooting at old compatriots who are defending their homes.

    O'Brien is playing a match against a Vulcan and badly strains his shoulder, so he has to forfeit the game.

    Winn asks Sisko to come meet her to help her solve the problem with the farmers. Sisko is sympathetic, but is also blunt that the whole situation is the result of Winn managing a minor dispute terribly. Winn makes it clear that this isn't about farming equipment but about asserting her authority.

    Shakar successfully lures the militia that is hunting them into an ambush. But even with nonlethal phasers, nobody has the guts to start shooting. So Shakar and Kira and walk out to talk with the commander, who knows them both indirectly. They agree that the whole situation is insane and they need to find some kind of agreement. So in the end they all go to Winn to tell her that Shakar wants to stand in the election for the next First Minister.

    Kira returns home and put away the candle for Bareil.

    --

    We had exactly the same conflict before. The government has big plans for rebuilding Bajor's infrastructure, but they don't want to wait for another year, so some small local farmers have to make way for progress and the greater good. It's not a bad conflict for a story, but we had exactly the same thing before. And both times they send Kira to talk some sense into the farmers. The arguments on both sides are also the same. The difference is that this time it's more personal for Kira, with the government being a personal enemy and the farmers being her good friends. This is more exciting, but still feels like a reheat.
    Back in season 1, stories like this were great. This time I find it actually very boring. I don't have a heap of complaints to rate it as a bad episode, but I was bored most of the time. The part where the old rebels talk about fighting each other is quite good, but the rest is very forgetable.

    We also already had Quark trying to exploit O'Brien's sport by running bets.

    I also just realized another thing:
    S3E22: First appearance of Bashir's future girlfriend.
    S3E23: First appearance of Sisko's future girlfriend.
    S3E24: First appearance of Kira's future boyfriend.
    S4E1: First appearance of Dax' future boyfriend.

    Seriously? This is how you planned for season 4? Not that there's anything wrong with any of these, but this is what you think the series needs to go forward?
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Worf was never planned as Dax'a boyfriend.

    The writer just instantly realized the characters and across had incredible chemistry

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    We had exactly the same conflict before. The government has big plans for rebuilding Bajor's infrastructure, but they don't want to wait for another year, so some small local farmers have to make way for progress and the greater good. It's not a bad conflict for a story, but we had exactly the same thing before. And both times they send Kira to talk some sense into the farmers. The arguments on both sides are also the same. The difference is that this time it's more personal for Kira, with the government being a personal enemy and the farmers being her good friends. This is more exciting, but still feels like a reheat.
    Back in season 1, stories like this were great. This time I find it actually very boring. I don't have a heap of complaints to rate it as a bad episode, but I was bored most of the time. The part where the old rebels talk about fighting each other is quite good, but the rest is very forgetable.
    Well, to quote James T. Kirk, "missing the target"; The story isn't about Kira, its about Kai Winn, and how she acts wielding power. She does the position of First Minister now and this episode is her real bat at play. She performs, poorly.

    Winn sends Kira to talk, when that fails, Winn sends soldiers. She doesn't offer a comprise or even work to explore other options. After failure, its immediately soldiers. Winn is being shown as a terrible political leader, and why she should not be First Minister as well as Kai.

    Then, there is the fact that the entire conflict is artificial. If the equipment was needed that badly, then Bajor could have asked the Federation for more equipment. Its not likely the Federation would say no, and push comes to shove, the Federation is more than willing to give a "gift" of whatever the Bajorans might need or ask for. After all, the Federation is a major idealist power, that would willing hand off gifts. That so far has been close to how that has worked according to TNG or TOS or TAS. from what we can see or have
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Yeah, the problem with Ferengi as antagonists is that they can never be threatening because there's literally nothing they're good at.
    This was a drastic shift during DS9 that almost amounts to a full-blown retcon (and does with respect to some details.) In the episode where Quark has to rescue his mother, he mentions one guy as the "only" Ferengi who can really handle weapons. Even allowing that Quark was using hyperbole, this conflicts with the TNG characterization of Ferengi as having number of solid warriors. IIRC, the Enterprise encountered Ferengi pirates and slavers on several occasions (who were capable of fighting ship to ship and hand to hand), and the Ferengi ship commanded by Daimon Bok's son was apparently enough of a threat to a Starfleet ship that Picard was considered a hero for coming up with an unorthodox maneuver that allowed his crew to survive long enough to abandon ship.

    but they aren't allowed to be good at that either since in Star Trek world, a moneyless planned economy is supposed to be the ideal even though it makes no sense.
    Part of this was Rodenberry's influence fading after he died, but even when he was alive, the utopian economy thing never extended beyond the Federation. In fact, everything you say pretty much supports the idea that the Ferengi are terrifying at commerce: They aren't anything special, physically or technologically, and they don't have the numbers, yet somehow they manage to put themselves in the middle of numerous important events, often as power players. Quark was, in theory, a Ferengi of little note or accomplishment, but he arguably helped shape the course of galactic events. The trade relations he helped the Ferengi Alliance establish with the Gamma Quadrant eventually yielded the first real inroads into the Dominion, something that Federation diplomacy, Romulan/Cardassian espionage, and Klingon aggression failed to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Well, to quote James T. Kirk, "missing the target"; The story isn't about Kira, its about Kai Winn, and how she acts wielding power. She does the position of First Minister now and this episode is her real bat at play. She performs, poorly.
    I agree completely. It hasn't been the first time I had that thought reading these reviews. But I suppose that's the point: The way Yora evaluates these episodes sometimes misses things that I find blindingly obvious, but then sometimes maybe what Yora sees as obvious is an insight that I completely missed.

    The fact that this conflict so closely parallels the prior episode only serves to underscore how bad Kai Winn is at her new job. Though the previous episode didn't directly involve Bajor's leadership, it did show Kira pretty much doing everything a good leader should be doing--trying to build rapport with an opponent, looking for possible compromises, seeing things from their point of view (maybe a bit too much on this bit), and ultimately acting decisively and accepting responsibility for that choice. All this, keeping in mind that Kira wasn't an elected civilian leader who would be expected to do such a tough job, but rather a soldier who was sent in to handle just one difficult job. Put in a very similar situation, the Kai, who clearly sees herself as a great leader and who in theory has the benefit of experience as a religious leader, failed to show any real leadership.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2019-07-30 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    Well, I did mention it. It just didn't strike me as something worth much elaborating on.

    But discussions on different perceptions of the episodes are very much welcome here. When someone else just watched the episode and has a different perspective to present, that's always great. That's part of the reason I thought one episode per day might be a bit too fast, but many episodes don't get any comments and then there wouldn't be any activity here for some time.

    If you got interpretations you'd want to share, always post them here. Some episodes simply bore me and I want to be done with them and move on to something fun. If you think there's interesting stuff going on to discuss, take the lead.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

    *Looks up from FE:Three Houses*

    Damn, I'm falling behind!


    E20 and E21: Not much to say here, a fantastic couple of episodes. My one critique is actually one of the worldbuilding and fallout after these episodes. Going forward, both the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar are referred to as "destroyed". Bull hockey. The leading representative for the Order is the retired spymaster who hopes to restore his career with this escapade. The top ranked Tal Shiar officer is a Colonel.

    There is no way that the incredibly paranoid Obsidian Order or the similarly paranoid Tal Shiar would hang their entire existence on a risky mission like this. Saying those organizations are humbled and have lost a ton of power? Sure. But destroyed?

    E22: I actually kinda liked this one. Yeah, it's filler, but it's good character developing filler between Sisko and Jake. That's not a relationship that gets focused on that much, and seeing them bond was pretty fun.

    [B]E23[:/B] I remembered this one being terrible when I saw it as a kid, and just straight up skipped it.

    E24: I really didn't like this one. Getting herself positioned so that she could even become Kai should require some level of political ability, and moreso for becoming First Minister. Wynn completely losing it over a couple of glorified combine harvesters seems very contrived given how adroitly she's manipulated religion to gain power for herself in the past. Beyond that, the idea that this one incident could result in civil war also seems crazy. We're not talking about a single nation here, we're talking about an entire freaking planet.

    The whole plot is just ridiculous from start to finish, and seems like an excuse to introduce a new love interest for Kira.

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