Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Ok, I really like 5e having crit expansion being a limited thing and I wanted to try and create a reasonable feat for those that just really want that extra edge. Thing is I've found some really broken, annoying, and overpowered approaches to this idea and some really lackluster ones as well. The goal is to create something that is neat and flavorful that is neither useless or trampling on the Champions toes. Heck with the benefits this gives, the champion will probably still be able to use this effectively if they want.

    Newest Attempt:
    DEADLY PRESICION
    • Choose weapon or spell attacks, attacks made with your selected option score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
    • When you score a critical hit against a creature you may immediately use your bonus action to shove the creature.
    • Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll you make and hit, you deal an additional 1d10 damage as long as both d20 rolls would hit the target. This additional damage is of the same type as the attack.


    For the second bullet I am greatly concerned with the shove mechanic. I wouldn't mind imposing a size limit to it. Additionally, if anyone finds a way to rephase any portion of this to use fewer words and still maintain its effect, I'm open to suggestions. So please lay'em on me. As always, PEACH.

    Previous 3rd bullet:
    Spoiler
    Show
    If you hit with an attack and you did not have disadvantage on the attack roll, you can use your bonus action to roll an additional weapon die of damage to the damage dealt.


    Spoiler: Old Design
    Show
    DEADLY PRESICION
    • Select four from any combination of the following: one weapon that you are proficient with, melee spell attacks, ranged spell attacks, or your unarmed strikes. Attacks with your selected options score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
    • When you score a critical hit against a creature may immediately use your bonus action to do one of the following: attempt shove the creature, grant it disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the start of your next turn, the next attack made against the creature before the start of your next turn has advantage, or reduce the creatures movement speed by 1/2 until the start of your next turn.
    • If you hit with an attack and you did not have disadvantage on the attack roll, you can use your bonus action to roll 1d8 and add it to the weapon damage dealt.
    Last edited by Gr7mm Bobb; 2019-05-30 at 08:04 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    When questioning matters of whether something in a game is "Broken", one should always consider if it is being implimented beyond its designed intent. This is in addition to looking at how mechanically healthy the questioned material is.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Crisis21's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Honestly, just the increased crit range would be enough for the Feat. Maybe add some language so it stacks with Champion's ability. If you think that alone is underpowered, add a +1 to STR or DEX onto it.
    Wind & Sound Elemental Eric Greenhilt avatar by Akrim.elf
    Bodyguard in Lix's Harem
    Ninja-Pirate of BvS's Privateer village! Come and join me!
    My Extended Signature
    My Pokemon!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crisis21 View Post
    Honestly, just the increased crit range would be enough for the Feat. Maybe add some language so it stacks with Champion's ability. If you think that alone is underpowered, add a +1 to STR or DEX onto it.
    I actually do not want it to stack with the champion or any other ability that expands the crit range, which is why it is worded the way it is. I want it to still feel cool and whatnot, but special, hence the built in limitation of how much is expanded. But I like the idea of having a niche, a potent effect that occurs only 10% of the time, and a nice flat consistent feature that feels good. The extra weapon die of the third bullet might need to get dropped to a plain d8 or even a d6 though if it proves too potent. A crit range expansion and a stat bump feels really lackluster imo and that's exact thing I'm trying to avoid.
    Last edited by Gr7mm Bobb; 2019-05-25 at 01:06 AM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    When questioning matters of whether something in a game is "Broken", one should always consider if it is being implimented beyond its designed intent. This is in addition to looking at how mechanically healthy the questioned material is.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Crisis21's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    I actually do not want it to stack with the champion or any other ability that expands the crit range, which is why it is worded the way it is. I want it to still feel cool and whatnot, but special, hence the built in limitation of how much is expanded. But I like the idea of having a niche, a potent effect that occurs only 10% of the time, and a nice flat consistent feature that feels good. The extra weapon die of the third bullet might need to get dropped to a plain d8 or even a d6 though if it proves too potent. A crit range expansion and a stat bump feels really lackluster imo and that's exact thing I'm trying to avoid.
    In that case I'd suggest the following corrections to streamline the language of the Feat and make it less complicated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    DEADLY PRESICION
    • Select four from any combination of the following: one weapon that you are proficient with, melee spell attacks, ranged spell attacks, or your unarmed strikes. Your weapon Attacks with your selected options rolls score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
    • When you score a critical hit against a creature you can may immediately use your bonus action to do your choice of: attempt to shove the creature back 5 feet or knock it prone, grant it disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the start of your next turn, the next attack made against the creature before the start of your next turn has advantage, or reduce the creatures movement speed by 1/2 until the start of your next turn.
    • If you hit with an attack and you did not have disadvantage on the attack roll, you can use your bonus action to roll an additional weapon damage die of damage to when determining the extra damage dealt for a critical hit.
    Last edited by Crisis21; 2019-05-25 at 07:49 AM.
    Wind & Sound Elemental Eric Greenhilt avatar by Akrim.elf
    Bodyguard in Lix's Harem
    Ninja-Pirate of BvS's Privateer village! Come and join me!
    My Extended Signature
    My Pokemon!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    I like the simplifications suggested by Crisis21. The feat was otherwise too fiddly and even underpowered. With those simplifications in place, even champion fighters can find this feat appealing.
    ~ Composer99

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    By making the user select 4 things that get extra crit range it limits the raw power of the feat. If it is too limited, then the number of things could be increased. I don't want it to outshine the Champion who only buffs weapon attack rolls. I'm not entirely seeing why that needs to go away.
    The bonus ability from landing a critical was supposed to feel cool and rewarding, and of ALL of the options that could be selected from, the Shove one is the 1st on the chopping block before all others. There are some creatures you just can't shove and it makes the scope overly narrow.
    The 3rd bullet isn't supposed to be dependent on landing a critical hit. Which is why I brought up the idea of just making it a flat "bonus die" that can be added to the weapons damage. Mainly because heavy weapons are a thing.

    Appreciate the help. Lets see if we can hammer this thing into shape with some changes around the discussed issues.
    Last edited by Gr7mm Bobb; 2019-05-25 at 02:02 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    When questioning matters of whether something in a game is "Broken", one should always consider if it is being implimented beyond its designed intent. This is in addition to looking at how mechanically healthy the questioned material is.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    Deadly Precision
    • Select four from any combination of the following: one weapon that you are proficient with, melee spell attacks, ranged spell attacks, or your unarmed strikes. Attacks with your selected options score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    By making the user select 4 things that get extra crit range it limits the raw power of the feat. If it is too limited, then the number of things could be increased. I don't want it to outshine the Champion who only buffs weapon attack rolls. I'm not entirely seeing why that needs to go away.
    The level of specificity you're looking at would work in 3.5 or 4e, but it's far too persnickety for the 5e aesthetic. I really don't think you can justify going down to the level of individual weapons.

    If you don't want to outshine the champion, then you pretty much just have to do away with the first bullet point as is, because even with your "only four things", players who take the feat will almost always be using their chosen things, meaning they'll almost always be getting the champion feature benefit plus the other feat benefits plus all their other class features - without paying the character build cost of getting the champion feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    Deadly Precision
    • When you score a critical hit against a creature may immediately use your bonus action to do one of the following: attempt shove the creature, grant it disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the start of your next turn, the next attack made against the creature before the start of your next turn has advantage, or reduce the creatures movement speed by 1/2 until the start of your next turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    The bonus ability from landing a critical was supposed to feel cool and rewarding, and of ALL of the options that could be selected from, the Shove one is the 1st on the chopping block before all others. There are some creatures you just can't shove and it makes the scope overly narrow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    For the second bullet I am greatly concerned with the shove mechanic. I wouldn't mind imposing a size limit to it.
    Shoving is already defined in the PHB/SRD, and when other abilities let you shove (such as the Shield Master feat), they don't redefine eligible targets. So I rather doubt you need to reinvent that particular wheel.

    Shoving is also as good as or better than any one of the other effects this ability allows on average, if you knock the target prone, although it can be worse in certain circumstances. I think that's pretty cool and rewarding. Knocking a creature prone is functionally the same as reducing its speed by half until your next turn, since it has to spend half its movement to get up. The granting advantage/disadvantage effects might be a little bit more reliable, in that the affected target can't just get up from prone to negate them.

    One thing that might be a problem with this bullet point is the use of your bonus action. Except for shoving, I'm not sure any of those are worth using a bonus action for, compared to most other things characters can use their bonus actions on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    Deadly Precision

    • If you hit with an attack and you did not have disadvantage on the attack roll, you can use your bonus action to roll 1d8 and add it to the weapon damage dealt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    The 3rd bullet isn't supposed to be dependent on landing a critical hit. Which is why I brought up the idea of just making it a flat "bonus die" that can be added to the weapons damage. Mainly because heavy weapons are a thing.
    Your objective is well and good, but why would I waste a bonus action on an extra 4.5 damage? If I have a means to getting bonus action attacks, I'll do those instead, because not only am I almost certain to deal more damage, I might even score another critical hit. I mean, I guess it's okay for spellcasters, since it's harder for them to find ways to use bonus actions.


    So... like I said, fiddly and underpowered.

    For revisions, I would suggest:
    - Finding some way to expand critical range that satisfies your requirement of not stepping on champion toes. [*]
    - Coming up with a few options of rider effects on your critical hits that you would feel comfortable with requiring neither a bonus action to apply nor some sort of usage limit.
    - In keeping with your objective of having an ability that doesn't depend on critical hits, coming up with some sort of rider effect you can apply on any attack (or damage?) roll without requiring a bonus action. Having some sort of usage limit, such as once on your turn, should be enough.

    [*] Might I suggest something like:
    When you hit with an attack and roll an 17 or higher on the d20, roll a second d20. Your attack is a critical hit if the roll on this die is also a 17 or higher.
    This gives you a critical hit probability of 8% if you're not a champion, and of 12% if you are.
    Last edited by Composer99; 2019-05-25 at 06:23 PM.
    ~ Composer99

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Crisis21's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    I agree with Composer99.

    As it stands, the first bullet point is far too limiting and requires the player to keep track of too much to really be an attractive option. Plus, it's not thematic to the concept. If you're deadly precise then it shouldn't much matter what you're deadly precise with. Proficiency is already a thing that will limit how effective certain attack options are, so there's no need to impose further limitations here.

    Right now, the second bullet point is trying too hard to give options when it really only needs the one: Shove. That's more than enough for any player. Having the extra options will either be superfluous or will bog down gameplay as players try to determine which effect to use.

    The third bullet point requiring a bonus action honestly weakens the Feat overall. Plus it conflicts with the second bullet point which also requires a bonus action. You only get one bonus action a turn. I also don't like restricting the bonus damage die to a d8. It should really be dependent on the damage die of the weapon/spell that's dealing the crit, because that's how crits work in 5e.

    Long explanation short: You're trying so hard to make your Feat a special snowflake that you're ignoring the workings of the very features you're trying to duplicate in it. You don't need to reinvent these mechanics because they already exist.
    Wind & Sound Elemental Eric Greenhilt avatar by Akrim.elf
    Bodyguard in Lix's Harem
    Ninja-Pirate of BvS's Privateer village! Come and join me!
    My Extended Signature
    My Pokemon!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    All valid points. I have an idea or 1/2 that should be able to utilize a chunk of the advice present. I do appreciate the help despite what it probably sounds like. Went over some design notes and whatnot. Changes will be in the OP.

    Changes were made with the consolidations of fiddly, complication, over-tuned, and bothersome. Hopefully the 'snowflake factor' I'd exhibited earlier is less present. I took the categorization of the Champion and ran with it. And seeing as how 5e categorizing attacks into 2 things, spell and weapon attacks, it became obvious that specifying unarmed strikes was silly as they are for mechanical purposes weapon attacks by the virtue of not being spell attacks. Over-explaining aside, I hope this helps keep the bullet from outshining the paladin.

    The second bullet has gone on a diet with the advice given. It deliberately does not read "attempt to shove", but it does retain the Bonus Action to activate because of the free success and control it provides.

    The third bullet has undergone a complete makeover because of issues with weapon damage doubling and whatnot. Instead I opted for a potent passive with a potent passive that should encourage players to use their features and situation to gain advantage when they can. Or you know, use their class features that hand that kind of thing out like candy. The damage is something I'm game to debate though. And I think it might benefit from a "once per turn" clause as well.

    Anyway, please let me know what you think of the second draft. Thank you again for your time.
    Last edited by Gr7mm Bobb; 2019-05-26 at 03:32 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    When questioning matters of whether something in a game is "Broken", one should always consider if it is being implimented beyond its designed intent. This is in addition to looking at how mechanically healthy the questioned material is.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Some of the wording feels a bit cumbersome to me. I would try making it simpler, something like this:
    • Choose weapon or spell attacks, attacks made with your selected options score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.. Your critical threat with the selected option is 19-20.
    • When you score a critical hit against a creature, you may immediately use your bonus action to shove the creatureit. Additionally, the creature's next attack made by the creature before the start of your next turn is made with disadvantage.
    • Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll you make and hit, you deal an additional 1d10 of damage if the lower of the two d20both rolls would also hit the target. The bonus damage from this feature is of the same type as the attack.
    Last edited by MrSandman; 2019-05-26 at 04:33 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr7mm Bobb View Post
    Newest Attempt:
    DEADLY PRESICION
    • Choose weapon or spell attacks, attacks made with your selected option score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
    • When you score a critical hit against a creature may immediately use your bonus action to shove the creature. Additionally, the next attack made by the creature before the start of your next turn is made with disadvantage.
    • Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll you make and hit, you deal an additional 1d10 of damage if the lower of the two d20 rolls would also hit the target. The bonus damage from this feature is the same type as the attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSandman View Post
    Some of the wording feels a bit cumbersome to me. I would try making it simpler, something like this:
    • Choose weapon or spell attacks, attacks made with your selected options score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.. Your critical threat with the selected option is 19-20.
    • When you score a critical hit against a creature, you may immediately use your bonus action to shove the creatureit. Additionally, the creature's next attack made by the creature before the start of your next turn is made with disadvantage.
    • Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll you make and hit, you deal an additional 1d10 of damage if the lower of the two d20both rolls would also hit the target. The bonus damage from this feature is of the same type as the attack.
    "Ciritical threat" is not a thing that is defined in 5e. I (think I) know what you mean by it, but all the same, Gr7mm Bobb's wording in the first bullet point is more precise. Indeed, "your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20" is how the champion's feature is worded, so I would not change the wording from Gr7mm Bobb's.

    If I were re-wording bullet points, I would do this for the second:
    [first sentence is fine] In addition, the target has disadvantage on the next attack it makes before your next turn.
    ... and this for the third:
    Whenever you have advantage on an attack made using your chosen option, you deal an additional 1d10 damage as long as both d20 rolls would hit the target. This additional damage is of the same type as the attack.
    I like the idea of tying this bonus damage back to whichever of weapon or spell attacks that you chose.



    Anyway, I think this version of the feat is much better. I think the last bullet point might now be a bit overtuned - perhaps tone it down to taking place once on each of your turns, and dealing 1d6 or 1d8 damage? Those aren't great if you have to use a bonus action to get them, but if you're likely to just proc this ability once a turn most turns, it's fine.

    I dare say this latest version of the feat is a solid choice for someone like a barbarian, after maxing out Strength and picking up something like GWM.
    ~ Composer99

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    You know, you could probably work some of this into Savage Attacker and kill two birds with one stone.

    Savage Attacker:
    - Once per turn when you roll damage for a melee weapon attack, you can reroll the weapon's damage die and use either total
    - When you score a critical hit against a creature the next attack roll or shove attempt made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage
    - When have advantage on a melee weapon attack and both rolls would hit you can roll one additional weapon damage die

    This way you don't double up on crit range or bonus action shoves so even say champions going for the shield master feat would be interested. Plenty of more intricate parts to play with as well for the more '3.5 minded'

    Edit: If you wanted to do the same sort of thing for spell attacks you'd probably want another feat for that. Preferably something like Spell Sniper or Warcaster that does more than one thing, feats in 5e aren't really designed to be single-item features since they are relatively rare and compete with stat increases.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-05-26 at 07:17 PM.
    Roll for it
    5e Houserules and Homebrew
    Extended Signature
    Awesome avatar by Ceika.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Ok, made some wording changes and such based on suggestions. The funky "lower of the two dice" thing from the third bullet was actually just how the Fell-Handed feat from the UA feats was worded, so it seemed appropriate. If the new wording causes issues I can revert it back, but I like being able to say rules and such as concisely as possible. It's not perfect, but I think it now safe enough for the playtesting stage of development. Thank you guys for all of your help with this. I have notes on suggestions from you all, so if changes are needed I can easily find ways of reigning in some of the power it has. I'd probably start with the 3rd bullet, limiting it to 1/turn if a solid chunk is needed to be taken out of it or just making it based on the users choice of spell or weapon rolls if only a minor limit is desired.
    Last edited by Gr7mm Bobb; 2019-05-30 at 11:01 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Trying My Hand at a Critical Feat, Lets Hope it's Not a Garbage fire.

    Nipping 2nd bullet to reign in some of the free crowd control.
    Spoiler
    Show
    When questioning matters of whether something in a game is "Broken", one should always consider if it is being implimented beyond its designed intent. This is in addition to looking at how mechanically healthy the questioned material is.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •