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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    So, I take it that your issue is that they're pretending Star Trek is cool and awesome.
    And diversified, open minded, and futuristic.

    He preferred when Star Trek was about white male heterosexual characters in 1960s cardboard stage sets.

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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    And diversified, open minded, and futuristic.

    He preferred when Star Trek was about white male heterosexual characters in 1960s cardboard stage sets.
    Nimoy and Shatner were both Jewish, and Jews were not considered White in the 1960s.

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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    The biggest thing I'm dreading is that we're going to be getting people complaining that Startrek is being taken over by SJWs. We already got some of that with Discovery, but it's probably gonna be worse here.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Nimoy and Shatner were both Jewish, and Jews were not considered White in the 1960s.
    That's not really an argument. The characters were coded white.

    And Jews' whiteness is probably the most volatile position of racist *******s.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Star Trek is the bleeding-heart leftist utopia of SF-universes. Every issue in the modern world has been settled - and settled definitively - by progressive leftist politics, rationalism, integration with alien societies, and technological advancement. The hippie feel-good math nerd Space UN squad are the undisputed heroes for multiple series and thousands of episodes, and they make it abundantly clear where their politics are and where they aren't. Even back in the original series that was the clear intent, that it was the 60's and they could only go so far with it is another thing.

    Not liking Star Trek for its general political philosophy is something I can easily understand and don't particularly care about, but unlike Click-Bait Yellow Font Youtubers scrounging viewers off the "divisive politics" of the current CBS series let's not pretend this is "against Gene's vision" or other sanctimonious twaddle about them SJW's taking over. It's the same **** as before only now it openly admits gay people are a thing outside of the mirror universe, which is not exactly trailblazing when you do it in the relative safety of the late 2010's.

    *edit, I actually said original trilogy. Star Wars discussions are warping my mind.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2019-05-28 at 01:14 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Also tho, let's admit that in some circumstances, Star Trek, the show, has fallen short of the ideals of Star Trek.

    Like it's just been said, Gays were a constant no-no under Rick Berman.
    Last edited by Cikomyr; 2019-05-28 at 09:07 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Also tho, let's admit that in some circumstances, Star Trek, the show, has fallen short of the ideals of Star Trek.

    Like it's just been said, Gays were a constant no-no under Rick Berman.
    Oh I agree with that. But some how in recent years people have convinced them selves that not only is Startrek a Right Wing franchise, but that it's always been one. And I don't understand how that's even possible. Well yeah I understand how it's more that I'm surprised it spread.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Great Modthulhu: Let's try to move this back away from real-world politics please, however germane they might be to the show's roots.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Great Modthulhu: Let's try to move this back away from real-world politics please, however germane they might be to the show's roots.
    If you pardon the pun...

    Spoiler: Germaine?!
    Show


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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    If you pardon the pun...

    Spoiler: Germaine?!
    Show

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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    If you pardon the pun...

    Spoiler: Germaine?!
    Show

    I spent at least two minutes debating over whether to post that, before ultimately deciding that I should keep my SatB references to the other thread I was making 'em in.
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    If you pardon the pun...

    Spoiler: Germaine?!
    Show

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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    In any case, if this show does focus on the destruction of Romulus, I'm curious to how they'll explain it. Because that whole thing was ridiculous. The shockwave from the Hobus star going supernova should have taken centuries to reach Romulus. Suffice to say, they would have had plenty of time to come up with a way to save the planet, or at least evacuate it.

    (Star Trek Online decided the shockwave traveled through subspace to explain the discrepancy. Maybe PIC will do the same?)

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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    In any case, if this show does focus on the destruction of Romulus, I'm curious to how they'll explain it. Because that whole thing was ridiculous. The shockwave from the Hobus star going supernova should have taken centuries to reach Romulus. Suffice to say, they would have had plenty of time to come up with a way to save the planet, or at least evacuate it.

    (Star Trek Online decided the shockwave traveled through subspace to explain the discrepancy. Maybe PIC will do the same?)
    I'm at a loss as to why they didn't just place Romulus around a supergiant star in the 2009 movie or its supplementary material. It's not as though they've ever had trouble retconning the composition of the Romulan star system. *cough*Nemesis*cough* *cough*Remus*cough*
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-05-28 at 04:08 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Remus was mentioned in the novelisation of the Balance of Terror TOS episode (Romulus/Remus star system), even if it wasn't shown on the onscreen star chart:

    Nobody had ever seen a live Romulan. It was very certain that 'Romulan' was not their name for themselves, for such fragmentary evidence as had been pieced together from wrecks, after they had erupted from the Romulus-Remus system so bloodily a good seventy-five years ago, suggested that they'd not even been native to the planet, let a lone a race that could have shared Earthly conventions of nomenclature.

    A very few bloated bodies recovered from space during that war had proved to be humanoid, but of the hawklike Vulcanite type rather than the Earthly anthropoid. The experts had guessed that the Romulans might once have settled on their adopted planet as a splinter group from some mass migration, thrown off, rejected by their less militaristic fellows as they passed to some more peaceful settling, to some less demanding kind of new world.

    Neither Romulus nor Remus, twin planets whirling around in a Trojan relationship to a white-dwarf sun, could have proved attractive to any race that did not love hardships for their own sakes. But almost all this was guesswork, unsupported either by history or by interrogation.

    The Vulcanite races who were part of the Federation claimed to know nothing of the Romulans; and the Romulans themselves had never allowed any prisoners to be taken -- suicide, apparently, was a part of their military tradition -- nor had they ever taken any. All that was known for sure was that the Romulans had come boiling out of their crazy little planetary system on no apparent provocation, in primitive, clumsy cylindrical ships that should have been clay pigeons for the Federation's navy and yet in fact took twenty-five years to drive back to their home world -- twenty-five years of increasingly merciless slaughter on both sides.
    And it's appeared in pre-Nemesis star charts on screen. Apparently a star chart in Kirk's quarters in The Undiscovered Country shows Remus, according to the Memory Alpha wiki.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-05-28 at 04:25 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    I disagree with that on the following points:
    So, again, that is not happening.
    Your points all make sense, from the prespective of a Star Trek fan. But remember the current show runners are NOT fans, must legaly make the show diffrent, but most of all are making THEIR Space Show(with a pointless Star Trek lable).

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    So, I take it that your issue is that they're pretending Star Trek is cool and awesome.
    Yes.

    ''Cool and Awesome" Sci Fi is Star Wars, not Star Trek.


    After the utter failure of Discovery....I'd love to see even an ''ok" Star Trek Show. A nice ''older Picard loosess his way and forgets who he is" and he has to ''rediscover himself". That would at least be a good Star Trek story: A POSTIVE message story. One about how you should not give up, and there is always hope. One about even the ''great" people like Picard stumble and fall.....it happens to everyone....but what makes people great is that they can get back up from that.

    But not a screen full of CGI spam ''sci-fi action" like Star Wars......
    Last edited by Inchhighguy; 2019-05-28 at 08:09 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    But remember the current show runners are NOT fans,
    You're confusing Alex Kurtzman with J.J. Abrams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    must legaly make the show diffrent
    I have never seen a primary source on this conjecture, just hearsay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    After the utter failure of Discovery...
    From CBS's standpoint, this is incorrect. Discovery's success (particularly, in helping CBS All Access reach its subscriber goals significantly ahead of schedule) is why it got renewed for a third season and three more series are in the works (including the Picard miniseries).

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    .

    ''Cool and Awesome" Sci Fi is Star Wars, not Star Trek.
    Up until today, I thought the "I hate fun guy" was just an unfair stereotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    After the utter failure of Discovery....
    Failure? What failure?

    Critically acclaimed, record breaking subscription for CBS Access, funded a third season and led to the funding of two more Star Trek series...

    What a failure this is! Let's bring more failure to TV then!

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    ''Cool and Awesome" Sci Fi is Star Wars, not Star Trek.
    Star Wars never seemed cool and awesome to me. It's escapist fantasy fiction, same as Star Trek, but the underlying theme to the work isn't as appealing to me the way that Star Trek is. Educated smart people fly around in space and solve all the problems!

    I'm sure I'm not the only one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Failure? What failure?
    I've not done anything like look up ratings reports or critical reception or the like, so I may be way off on this, but... But I'm not. Failing shows don't get additional seasons.

    I think there's a lot of people who look at those in their immediate (small) social circle and conclude whatever they're saying is de-facto reality. There also seems to be an abundance of fan outrage these days if you know where to look. It seems to me that most people who actually engage with media aren't that type of viewer.

    My social circle is plenty tiny too, I just don't extrapolate it into bizarre conclusions about the wider society around me. Everyone is an intellectual with basic human empathy, right?
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Yeah, I love this illusion that Discovery was a failure. Because that's what television studios do when a show is a huge failure--they greenlight three separate spin-offs (Picard, Below Decks and Section 31).

    I guess if you get all of your news from Youtube and Reddit, you would think the show was universally hated and a huge financial failure.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Yeah, I love this illusion that Discovery was a failure. Because that's what television studios do when a show is a huge failure--they greenlight three separate spin-offs (Picard, Below Decks and Section 31).

    I guess if you get all of your news from Youtube and Reddit, you would think the show was universally hated and a huge financial failure.
    Media journalism in general is **** nowadays. Maybe it has always been... But that's a different conversation.

    The fact is that Discovery's first season was enough of a failure that Paramount/Bad Robot had to sell their second season to Netflix for a much lower price than the first one (Netflix was so confident in Discovery's success that they pretty much funded the whole thing. Needless to say, they were justifiably pissed off when it didn't deliver). To make things worse, Discovery merchandise is a dud, while classic ST still sells like hotcakes. That's in fact the main reason CBS wanted to keep it for themselves and specifically made it so that Paramount/Bad Robot had to make their ST effectively a separate franchise that is contractually obligated to be different both in visuals and tone.

    STD didn't bring nearly as many viewers to CBS All-Access as they hoped, didn't sell nearly as many DVD sets as expected and didn't gather following anywhere near what's expected from a series with such a high budget. So yes, Discovery was indeed quite a failure.

    Let's not forget that according to Alex Kurtzman himself, at the point "Section 31" was announced, the story hadn't even begun being written and the series wasn't actually green-lit yet... And CBS All-Access remains a major failure for the most part... That tells me the only reason "Section 31" was announced was a sad attempt to generate buzz for STD... You know... Just like making Michael a never-before-mentioned adoptive sister of Spock.

    Also, "Picard" was specifically remade after investors looked at it and said it wasn't similar enough to classic ST, because they were afraid it would be the same failure as Discovery, which, again, has basically non-existent merchandise sales, which is what the makes the big bucks for ST. "Picard" isn't an spin-off... It's Bad Robot's desperate attempt to make a ST series that's actually successful.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-05-28 at 11:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    record breaking subscription for CBS Access
    What, from 2 to 4?

    For reals, though, if it's succeeding, more power to them. I'm not about to start paying for individual channels a la carte, especially for just one show.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    The fact is that Discovery's first season was enough of a failure that Paramount/Bad Robot had to sell their second season
    The same Paramount and Bad Robot that are not directly credited anywhere for producing Picard or Discovery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    STD didn't bring nearly as many viewers to CBS All-Access as they hoped,
    CBS reached their 8 million direct-to-consumer subscriptions goal (split between All Access and Showtime) almost two years ahead of schedule, by 2018 Q4. In their 2019 Q1 report, they further claim that subscriptions are up 71% over last year.

    You don't have valid sources, your understanding of the basic facts of the shows' production is demonstrably incorrect, and CBS is publicly making the exact opposite claims and movements one would expect if the show and subscription service were deemed failures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    The same Paramount and Bad Robot that are not directly credited anywhere for producing Picard or Discovery?
    Indeed. My mistake. The point still stands, however. Netflix was pissed precisely because they paid A LOT of money for STD and it was a huge flop. To the point where the second season was sold at much lower price. And gain, merchandise for the series is basically zero, and it quickly fell off "trending" in social networks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    CBS reached their 8 million direct-to-consumer subscriptions goal (split between All Access and Showtime) almost two years ahead of schedule, by 2018 Q4. In their 2019 Q1 report, they further claim that subscriptions are up 71% over last year.
    STD did pull people to CBS All-Access... It does have "Star Trek" written on its title, after all. But the pull wasn't as big as expected, and CBS has actually lost quite some value in market shares, from what I recall... But I'm not sure on that one. It's easy to see the series "earnings" and call it a success while ignoring how much it cost (to Netflix, actually, since they paid so much for the 1st season, they basically financed the whole production... From that PoV, STD 1st season was indeed a success to CBS, since they spent basically nothing, but the show was still quite a flop with audiences).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    You don't have valid sources, your understanding of the basic facts of the shows' production is demonstrably incorrect, and CBS is publicly making the exact opposite claims and movements one would expect if the show and subscription service were deemed failures.
    I don't think any company in the world would openly declare "Yes, we totally screwed up with our latest investments"... And again, "Section 31" hasn't even been green-lit yet, according to Kurtzman. Discovery and Picard were both announced when they were way farther in development. To me, that implies the announcement of "Section 31" was little more than a publicity stunt.

    And "Picard" exists precisely to cash in on Nostalgia because the new series simply didn't gather a following and don't produce any merchandise money. Not only that, but it had changes made to it mid-production explicitly so that it'd be more similar to old ST.

    But evne if all that I think about Section 31 and Picard is wrong, the fact is that STD DVD sets sold poorly (compared to the series' budget, anyway) and its merchandise, by far the biggest source of money for ST, is practically non-existent... And again, the 2nd season was sold much cheaper than the 1st one. If that says "success" to you, then your standards are much lower than mine.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-05-29 at 02:57 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    ...He preferred when Star Trek was about...

    Your experience of watching the original series doesn't match the experience of those who watched it when it was first broadcast, it was lauded for what would now be called "diversity".

    And the cardboard sets were awesome!

    Also Discovery is lame because it's not actually being broadcast and the DVD's haven't reached my local public library branch yet, thus unwatchable and bad and they should feel bad until it gets on broadcast television, or to the library.

    As for "Picard", if like "Discovery" and it exists only on message boards and not on real broadcast television then the makers are meanies.

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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Your experience of watching the original series doesn't match the experience of those who watched it when it was first broadcast, it was lauded for what would now be called "diversity".
    And yet, why do we hear claims that SJW are invading Star Trek?

    This whole topic has been discussed in details in the last 2 pages. You are welcomed to read them.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    And the cardboard sets were awesome!
    They were.

    At the time. I expect a 2019 production to be more high budget than a niche genre show of the 1970s.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Also Discovery is lame because it's not actually being broadcast and the DVD's haven't reached my local public library branch yet, thus unwatchable and bad and they should feel bad until it gets on broadcast television, or to the library.

    As for "Picard", if like "Discovery" and it exists only on message boards and not on real broadcast television then the makers are meanies.

    Cable, Netflicks, and the like are abominations!
    So.. Discovery is not lame. The method of distribution is lame.

    You have no idea how good or bad the show actually is. How can you make a judgement call as to its quality?

    I get that you protest against new ways of doing stuff - that's human nature - but don't start claiming that you can properly judge a product just because you don't like the delivery company.

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    Originally Posted by hamishspence
    Remus was mentioned in the novelisation of the Balance of Terror TOS episode (Romulus/Remus star system)….
    Remus was also mentioned in the Diane Duane novels from the 80s, including My Enemy, My Ally and The Romulan Way. She was the first one to develop a detailed, coherent history of the Vulcan-Romulan divergence and the subsequent exodus of the Romulans to their new home.

    She was also, as far as I know, the first Trek writer to make the obvious point that the “Romulans” had completely different names for themselves and their worlds than the ones from classical Italian mythology. Sadly, this little nuance was lost on the writers from TNG onwards. Diane Duane’s novels were some of the best-written of the “EU” of Star Trek, and it’s a shame they weren’t referenced in subsequent series and movies. She understood Trek better than a lot of the series writers since.

    All this said…how did we get on the topic of Romulans? Do we have the slightest mote of proof that Romulans will actually be involved?

    Originally Posted by 2D8HP
    …and the DVD's haven't reached my local public library branch yet….
    I don’t know how it works in San Fran, but my library system is great at purchasing new items based on user requests. Half of my library’s Pathfinder collection is the result of my requesting specific titles, and they’ve added books on everything from Downton Abbey to How to Train Your Dragon based on my recommendations.

    So, rather than waiting passively, I suggest you hit up your library website and see if you can’t order the DVDs yourself.

    Originally Posted by Cikomyr
    I expect a 2019 production to be more high budget than a niche genre show of the 1970s.
    Seriously? TOS ran from 1966-1969, and it was a product of the 60s in every way.

    Originally Posted by Cikomyr
    Discovery is not lame. The method of distribution is lame.

    …don't start claiming that you can properly judge a product just because you don't like the delivery company
    .
    I agree that the distribution model is terrible, but in my case I can absolutely judge the product based on the free sample I was given, which was the first hour of the pilot that was on ordinary broadcast.

    Based on that first hour, I want nothing to do with the show. You may complain that’s not fair of me, but I saw enough wall-to-wall ridiculous in that first hour to convince me that the show wasn’t something I would enjoy. The fact that the rest of the series is locked behind a paywall only reinforces my utter disinterest.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2019-05-29 at 08:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    All this said…how did we get on the topic of Romulans? Do we have the slightest mote of proof that Romulans will actually be involved?
    This was how - a criticism about the 2009 movie, followed by an argument that Nemesis retconned things about the Romulus star system:

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I'm at a loss as to why they didn't just place Romulus around a supergiant star in the 2009 movie or its supplementary material. It's not as though they've ever had trouble retconning the composition of the Romulan star system. *cough*Nemesis*cough* *cough*Remus*cough*
    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Diane Duane’s novels were some of the best-written of the “EU” of Star Trek, and it’s a shame they weren’t referenced in subsequent series and movies. She understood Trek better than a lot of the series writers since.
    Star Trek Online, at least, has referenced one of her characters from the ancient Vulcan era.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-05-29 at 08:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Originally Posted by hamishspence
    This was how....
    Ah. Thank you.

    To me, the flute is more interesting, since it suggests that the writers are actually paying attention to major events in Picard's life from TNG. I like that kind of continuity.

    Originally Posted by hamishspence
    Star Trek Online, at least, has referenced one of her characters from the ancient Vulcan era.
    Well, that's something. I would have liked to see more mention of her history for the Vulcan/Romulan divergence, but at least she's not entirely forgotten.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2019-05-29 at 08:30 AM.

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    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Star Trek: Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I would have liked to see more mention of her history for the Vulcan/Romulan divergence, but at least she's not entirely forgotten.


    I thought Spock's World was great, especially when it came to Sarek & Amanda and how they fell in love - it also had an interesting follow up on Spock's ex-betrothed, T'Pring.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-05-29 at 08:33 AM.
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