Fly skill problems

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, so I'm doing myself a DM screen for my own hybrid 3.x/PF system and I want to resolve some issues with fly. (Posting it here rather than the QA section because it will involve some house rules as well.)

First off, straight RAW rules query:

1) The skill check lists you need to make a Fly check for moving *less than half* speed. The text below says you don't need to make a fly check if you move *greater than half* speed. So, which is it? It can't be both, since it ignores moving exactly half-speed.

2) Failure by less than 4/failure for non-winged fliers. There is no RAW on what happens. The intention SEEMS to suggest that they half to fly such that they either don't have to make a fly check - or fall, though the wording would almost seem to suggest that would happen at the end of their turn. Poorly worded, with too much "implied but not stated." I want to fix this so that it isn't (even if the end result it not what was originally intended, so long as it makes sense).

3) The Ghost Prat-fall Effect.

Partially a by-product of 2, partially from RAW.

Ghost have perfect fly speed, but, even with the aforementioned rule aside a standard PF ghost only has a +9 Fly skill, which means 25% of the time, it can't hover (whatever that means, see 2) and 5% of the time, it falls out of the sky when it tries to do so. I have difficulty parsing that.

This is exascerabated by us using a 1 = -10 and 20 = 30 on skill checks. This is pretty much fine in 99% of circumctances, but here raises an issue of logic, especially with Perfect fliers not using wings.

So, I belive that perfect fliers ought to have something that prevents that - I am supposing that perfect fliers ought to be able to take 10 on fly checks (or at least fly checks for movement), which would be in line with the bonus for Climb and Swim check for creatures with Climb and Swim speed. In the case of stuff like air elementals and a lot of (*but not all*) creatures with perfect fly speed, most of them are automatically making movement checks automatically in PF (where normally a 1 is just a 1) anyway.

Clarfication for 1 and and suggestions for 2 and 3 would be welcome.

[upho]

I agree the Fly skill rules aren't exactly well-written, but nevertheless I also believe they're decipherable into coherent and consistent rules:

1) The skill check lists you need to make a Fly check for moving *less than half* speed. The text below says you don't need to make a fly check if you move *greater than half* speed. So, which is it? It can't be both, since it ignores moving exactly half-speed.

Strictly RAW, you have to move greater than half speed to avoid having to make a check, since text trumps table. RAI? No idea. Design-wise? I've always ruled that at least half speed is enough to avoid the check (as per the table), mainly to avoid making other "half speed"-stuff more complicated than necessary (stuff like slow is typically still a major problem for less skilled flyers).

2) Failure by less than 4/failure for Ig would almost seem to suggest that would happen at the end of their turn. Poorly worded, with too much "implied but not stated." I want to fix this so that it isn't (even if the end result it not what was originally intended, so long as it makes sense).

Fly checks are always made as part of another action (typically one involving movement) or as a reaction. This means that if your check fails, the triggering part of your action fails, for example forcing you to continue flying in a straight line when you fail the check to make a sharp turn. If the check is triggered by something other than an action taken by you, the rules detail what happens (for example having you lose 10' of altitude if you fail the check triggered by taking damage). If you fail by 5 or more and fly using wings, you also "plummet to the ground".

3) The Ghost Prat-fall Effect.

Partially a by-product of 2, partially from RAW.

Ghost have perfect fly speed, but, even with the aforementioned rule aside a standard PF ghost only has a +9 Fly skill, which means 25% of the time, it can't hover (whatever that means, see 2) and 5% of the time, it falls out of the sky when it tries to do so. I have difficulty parsing that.

This is thankfully covered by the incorporeal quality which say:

"Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage."

IOW, incorporeal creatures like ghosts hover by default and actually cannot do otherwise even if they wanted to for some reason. They still need to make Fly skill checks when making aerial maneuvers other than simply staying aloft.

This is exascerabated by us using a 1 = -10 and 20 = 30 on skill checks. This is pretty much fine in 99% of circumctances, but here raises an issue of logic, especially with Perfect fliers not using wings.

So, I belive that perfect fliers ought to have something that prevents that - I am supposing that perfect fliers ought to be able to take 10 on fly checks (or at least fly checks for movement), which would be in line with the bonus for Climb and Swim check for creatures with Climb and Swim speed. In the case of stuff like air elementals and a lot of (*but not all*) creatures with perfect fly speed, most of them are automatically making movement checks automatically in PF (where normally a 1 is just a 1) anyway.

The maneuverability categories are nothing but a (needlessly confusing) way of saying "+/-0/4/8 to Fly skill checks", a leftover from 3.5 presumably initially kept to help importing 3.5 creatures into PF. They say absolutely nothing about how skilled a specific creature is at flying, only that the creature is likely to be more or less skilled due to the penalty or bonus. If you intend to keep the PF "Fly as a skill"-version, I recommend you also don't change this, but keep the fly categories as strictly numerical bonuses/penalties to Fly.

Instead, I suggest you add a rule to the Fly skill which says that a creature with a Fly bonus of more than +[X] never takes the normal -10 penalty from rolling a 1 on a Fly check. This way, you keep PF's less restricted and more "type of flight"-independent" design while still giving great ("perfect") flyers a suitable boon. I think the above [X] should probably be in the neighborhood of +15 or +20.

[Aotrs Commander]

I agree the Fly skill rules aren't exactly well-written, but nevertheless I also believe they're decipherable into coherent and consistent rules:

Strictly RAW, you have to move greater than half speed to avoid having to make a check, since text trumps table. RAI? No idea. Design-wise? I've always ruled that at least half speed is enough to avoid the check (as per the table), mainly to avoid making other "half speed"-stuff more complicated than necessary (stuff like slow is typically still a major problem for less skilled flyers).

Yeah, sounds sensible, I will adjust 3.A wording accordingly.

This is thankfully covered by the incorporeal quality which say:

"Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage."

Okay, but that only stops them falling, not lets them hover if they fail their Fly check. And still doesn't help, say, large flying things like you magic thrones or floating beam constructs and whatnot.

IOW, incorporeal creatures like ghosts hover by default and actually cannot do otherwise even if they wanted to for some reason. They still need to make Fly skill checks when making aerial maneuvers other than simply staying aloft.

But that's not what it says. (Which is, of course, the problem.) Now, in my own mind, I think that non-winged floating creatures ought probably not be unable to hover, because I can't particularly see them... Able to do that out of combat by taking ten and then failing and drifting the movement Fighting Happens. Now, you can make the arguement that you want a PC under the effect of a Fly spell to be flounderng about (but they're Good, at least in 3.5).

(I am still trying to get my head around why Beholders are inexplicably only Good maneuverability when they probably ought to be perfect, really.)

The maneuverability categories are nothing but a (needlessly confusing) way of saying "+/-0/4/8 to Fly skill checks", a leftover from 3.5 presumably initially kept to help importing 3.5 creatures into PF. They say absolutely nothing about how skilled a specific creature is at flying, only that the creature is likely to be more or less skilled due to the penalty or bonus. If you intend to keep the PF "Fly as a skill"-version, I recommend you also don't change this, but keep the fly categories as strictly numerical bonuses/penalties to Fly.

Instead, I suggest you add a rule to the Fly skill which says that a creature with a Fly bonus of more than +[X] never takes the normal -10 penalty from rolling a 1 on a Fly check. This way, you keep PF's less restricted and more "type of flight"-independent" design while still giving great ("perfect") flyers a suitable boon. I think the above [X] should probably be in the neighborhood of +15 or +20.

Yeah, but... that's kind of a long specific exception. (If I was going to do that, I definitely wouldn't gate it behind fly skill, as by the time you have +15/+20 on Fly you're basically immune to fly checks anyway in regualr PF.)



Maybe the simplest answer is just for me to add a note to the hover and move less than half speed table which says "automatic for non-winged creatures with Perfect fly speed." Whcih saves me adding another line to every creature's entry.


Version 1 Revision (changes/clarifications in bold):

You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance of at least half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Sacrified movement does not count towards your minimum of half speed.
Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.

Retry? Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds (if hovering or trying to fly less than half speed). If you failed on turns or flying at an angle, if have movement left, you may continue to try to make fly checks to try again (provided you have not already failed a fly check that requries you to move at least half speed).
If you fail you fly check, you must make the appropriate action indicated by the table. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you instead plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.

Fly (Dex; ACP)
Flying Maneuver	Fly DC
Move less than half speed and remain flying1	10
Hover1 3	15
Turn greater than 45° by spending 5 feet of movement2	145
Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement2	20
Fly up at a greater than 45° angle2	20
1 On a fail, you must move half your speed 2 On a fail, you only turn 45º or rise at 45º 3 Automatic with Hover feat*

* possible with "or if non-winged with Perfect fly speed."

[upho]

Okay, but that only stops them falling, not lets them hover if they fail their Fly check. And still doesn't help, say, large flying things like you magic thrones or floating beam constructs and whatnot.

But that's not what it says. (Which is, of course, the problem.)

Not using those words, no. But that is nevertheless the only possible end result of the combined RAW. Meaning there are absolutely zero consequences if a ghost fails its Fly check to hover, since it simply cannot fall according to the specific rules for incorporeal. Which take precedence over the general Fly skill rules.

Or IOW:

1. What does "hover" mean in this context? To remain aloft without changing position.
2. What does ["cannot fall"] + ["does not move of its own accord"] mean for a flying creature in this context? That it remains aloft without changing position.

So mechanically speaking, ghosts do in effect "hover" by default and regardless of any Fly skill check results, even though the RAW (unfortunately) don't spell this out for the reader.

Note that being incorporeal doesn't change/affect any of the other Fly skill rules for moving with a fly speed. So those rules still apply, and a clumsy ghost with a poor Fly skill bonus will consequently have a hard time making sharp turns and the like strictly according to the RAW.

Now, in my own mind, I think that non-winged floating creatures ought probably not be unable to hover, because I can't particularly see them... Able to do that out of combat by taking ten and then failing and drifting the movement Fighting Happens.

Well, if this level of verisimilitude and rules granularity is important, I agree. In such a case hovering should definitely only be a check if you need wings in order to beat gravity. So for example, regardless of whether Bob the human is wildly flailing about or staying perfectly still, it shouldn't have any noticeable impact on his ability to stay aloft.

Although at this level of verisimilitude, maybe you'd also need a rule which say that winged creatures (made for flight) are significantly better at maneuvering than wingless ones (not made for moving above the ground)? I guess you could simply say "it's magic" and be done with it, but it may be worth taking into account.

Now, you can make the arguement that you want a PC under the effect of a Fly spell to be flounderng about (but they're Good, at least in 3.5).

And now I'm picturing the PCs in the party I currently GM desperately floundering about to stay aloft while affected by a casting of mass fly. Hilarious!

Slightly more seriously, I wouldn't recommend using that fluff explanation if going with the PF RAW, but rather that magic wingless flight is actually in many ways similar to winged flight and just as dependent on speed (and skill).

They're Good (I am still trying to get my head around why Beholders are inexplicably only Good maneuverability when they probably ought to be perfect, really.)

Same in the PF version of fly, but that also grants a 1/2 CL bonus to Fly checks. So the fly cast by say a 10th level wizard grants a total +9 bonus to Fly checks.

(I think the beholder's Good maneuverability is simply an example of a creature that - according to the author(s) - should be able to hover without having to roll anything (like a ghost), but which also shouldn't have as unrestricted movement as Perfect maneuverability affords in 3.5.)

Yeah, but... that's kind of a long specific exception.

Let me clarify: I believe you could simply remove the current '* possible with "or if non-winged with Perfect fly speed."' and change the line about the Hover feat into say:

'³ Automatic with Hover feat or a Fly skill bonus of +15'

(If I was going to do that, I definitely wouldn't gate it behind fly skill, as by the time you have +15/+20 on Fly you're basically immune to fly checks anyway in regualr PF.)

Exactly. I thought the point was that very skilled flyers shouldn't risk falling when attempting to hover, making checks unnecessary. (Which they'd of course typically not be if there's a 5% chance of failure, as per the "natural 1 = -10" house rule.)

And basically, what I'm saying is that the PF "Fly as skill" equivalent of 3.5's "Perfect maneuverability" is actually "a Fly skill bonus high enough that most checks automatically succeed (including to hover)". Not "gains a +8 bonus to Fly checks" (the effect of PF's Perfect maneuverability).

Maybe the simplest answer is just for me to add a note to the hover and move less than half speed table which says "automatic for non-winged creatures with Perfect fly speed." Whcih saves me adding another line to every creature's entry.

I believe you'll get to the same intended result by using the suggested "high skill bonus = auto-success, no check needed".

Otherwise, AFAICT your version should work great.