Vengeance Paladin Lvl 4, looking for advice, Feat vs ASI

[BonesMC]

Hi guys,


I'm currently playing a Half-Elf Vengeance Paladin in a group with a Ranger, a wizard and a rogue. We've just advanced to 4th Level and I'm not quite sure if I should take a feat or go with the ASI.

My stats are ST 16 / DEX 14 / CON 16 / INT 10 / WIS 12 / CHA 16...Fighting style is Dueling (Longsword&Shield).


Now I'm not quite sure if I should go with a feat or just boost a stat. Better attack & damage, better initiative (no AC improvement right now, since I'm wearing a chainmal), more HP, better CHA modifier. Feat-wise, things like shield master and sentinel sound nice; people keep mentioning Resilient (Con) but I haven't had any problems with my CON ST, so far, so I'm not too sure about that feat. HAM (or the 3 points of damage reduction) doesn't sound that big of a thing to me, either.

One thing, though....I keep rolling ridiculously low on initiative. Wich makes the Alert feat looking a bit tempting. :D


Right now all the different ways to change things kind of sound like they're equally "small", not having too much of an impact, at the moment.....so I'm a bit lost and would appreciate any sort of advice.


Thanks in advance. :)

[Maelynn]

For my Vengeance Paladin I chose Heavy Armour Master at level 4. It's especially nice for enemies that have a multi-attack, as the subtraction counts for every blow separately.

Downside would be that at higher levels, it gradually becomes less useful. So that means it depends greatly on how far you expect this character to go when it comes to levels. Me for instance, I doubt my character will ever live higher than level 8 - so then it's a valuable enough feat.

Alternatively, since you're wearing a shield you might also find Shield Master interesting.

[Wildarm]

In terms of con saves, you should be using Bless frequently on all the martial characters including yourself since you have no cleric. If you are reliably buffing your attack then I'd recommend picking up Inspiring Leader. It is generally very strong and well help your group immensely. @level 5 Ranger can cast healing spirit to heal everyone full and then you can tack of 7+ extra THP. It's amazing what an extra level or two worth of HP to the entire team can do for overall suitability.

[Crushgrip]

Good suggestions above. Bless really is an amazing spell and if either the rogue or ranger have the Sharpshooter feat then they will thank you for it. Depending on how strict your DM is with casting with the sword + board build, the Warcaster feat may be necessary for you? If you're looking for a straight ASI, I say +2 to your CHA as you are only 2 levels from your Aura and those bonuses to saves are soooooo great. Also, since you are a Vengeance Pally you have a lot of offensive spells and the + to CHA will bump up the number of prepared spells and your save DC. Lot's of win there.

[Tallytrev813]

I'd buy a spear and get Polearm Master. You'll still be spear/shield, youll still get the Dueling bonus, your dmg die will drop to a 1d6, but youll get an extra bonus attack 1d4+X

[Mikaleus]

I’d say + 2 Charisma or Warcaster.

[Jerrykhor]

I'm a fan of Shield Master, but of course, check with the DM if he allows using the shield bash before any attacks. If he does, then its great.

My favourite moment was gloating to the party members after they all took full or half damage on a save from a dragons breath weapon, while I get to take no damage after passing the save

[LudicSavant]

PAM with a spear is a very good deal for a Vengeance Paladin due to the way it synergizes with their spell list and level 7 ability (in addition to the reasons it's usually good for a Paladin). You still get to wield a shield and take advantage of Dueling.

[tarlison2k1]

I'm sure but if I'm right you can't use dueling if you have a shield

[LudicSavant]

I'm sure but if I'm right you can't use dueling if you have a shield

You're not right. A shield is not a weapon.

DUELING
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

[Tallytrev813]

I'm sure but if I'm right you can't use dueling if you have a shield

You can, it's benefit applies to those using only a 1 handed weapon - Shields do not interfere with this. The OP already noted he's using Dueling with a Longsword/Shield

And, as noted above, the synergy of PAM with the lvl 7 Vengeance Paladin skill is awesome. Basically, PAM gives you a reaction attack whenever someone enters your reach, and Vengeance paladin's level 7 ability allows you to move up to half your speed when you take a reaction-attack and doesnt provoke AoO's.

So basically, a badguy moves 20 feet to strike you - you take a reaction attack against him, then also take a reaction movement of 15 feet (If on foot) or 30+ feet (If on horseback) and move out of his reach, neutralizing him this turn. It's pretty awesome

[tarlison2k1]

Thanks for the info , always wanting to have that

[Mikaleus]

You can, it's benefit applies to those using only a 1 handed weapon - Shields do not interfere with this. The OP already noted he's using Dueling with a Longsword/Shield

And, as noted above, the synergy of PAM with the lvl 7 Vengeance Paladin skill is awesome. Basically, PAM gives you a reaction attack whenever someone enters your reach, and Vengeance paladin's level 7 ability allows you to move up to half your speed when you take a reaction-attack and doesnt provoke AoO's.

So basically, a badguy moves 20 feet to strike you - you take a reaction attack against him, then also take a reaction movement of 15 feet (If on foot) or 30+ feet (If on horseback) and move out of his reach, neutralizing him this turn. It's pretty awesome

Oh that is awesome.
My next paladin is totally gonna be a Vuman with this feat wow 😯

[BonesMC]

Taking up a spear and going for PAM...how could I have not seen this?!?

Definitely not something which seems to be "typical" for a Paladin, especially when you're wearing heavy armour and spear/shield sounds more like a gladiator-type of fighter. But in terms of damage being dealt this is really interesting. So that would be (1d6+5) + (1d4+5), still a +2 to AC, a bless spell / hunter's mark / thunderous smite for more attack or damage bonus, and some Divine Smite on top of that (this would be burning through the spellslots quickly, though). Plus an additional AoO when an enemy enters my 5ft area. And on lvl 5 there will be a second regular attack, anyway.

Sounds like a VERY tempting setup. Thanks for bringing it up, I should really consider this. :)

[Tallytrev813]

Taking up a spear and going for PAM...how could I have not seen this?!?

Definitely not something which seems to be "typical" for a Paladin, especially when you're wearing heavy armour and spear/shield sounds more like a gladiator-type of fighter. But in terms of damage being dealt this is really interesting. So that would be (1d6+5) + (1d4+5), still a +2 to AC, a bless spell / hunter's mark / thunderous smite for more attack or damage bonus, and some Divine Smite on top of that (this would be burning through the spellslots quickly, though). Plus an additional AoO when an enemy enters my 5ft area. And on lvl 5 there will be a second regular attack, anyway.

Sounds like a VERY tempting setup. Thanks for bringing it up, I should really consider this. :)

I’m playing it now, I love it.

Another thing to consider is grabbing Warcaster and Mounted combatant.

Your buff spells that target you will also target your mount, and between the mount and vow of enmity you basically have Perma-Advantage

[LudicSavant]

Sounds like a VERY tempting setup. Thanks for bringing it up, I should really consider this. :)

NP

[Finback]

I ran a Vuman Vengadin, and my first feat I took was Shield Master. Turns out, it can be used in many more creative ways than just shield bashing.

Like wading into a pack of wardogs, and have the artificer throw alchemical fire centred on you - or having the sorcerer cast Fireball, centred on you - and then you (ideally) make the Dex safe, reduce all the damage to zero, and walk out of the conflagration a Big Damn Hero.

[BonesMC]

Hehe, that sure does sound cool as hell. :D


Ah man, it's not an easy choice to make, since there are so many different things which add good flavour and/or mechanical things.