5e Variant: Armor as Temp HP (no longer flat reduction)

[Tvtyrant]

Eh... For reference, the Tarrasque has +19 to-hit. That gives you an effective AC of 33 in Heavy Armor-the equivalent of having Full Plate +3, Shield +3, Shield of Faith, and Shield.

Even against weaker people, like, say, a random CR 10ish Genie (gonna google them now) has +9 to-hit. That's an AC of 23, the equivalent of Full Plate +1, Shield +1, and the Defensive Fighting Style.

You can tune the numbers down, but I think as far as modeling reality and being simple it meets both goals without changing the game math dramatically.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Incorporate Prof bonus into AC? Scales with to-hit.

Hmm. Would be iffy for lighter armor wearers who are adding a lot of Dex. When I was working on my "5e without ability scores" project, I did toy with the idea of giving everyone the same (level-based) AC and having the different armor types provide different secondary benefits-- Heavy Armor Master style reduction for heavy armor, negating AoOs for light armor, that sort of thing... never even had a clue about medium armor, though.

I wonder if there is a dice based solution? Instead of using the attack and damage bonuses it focuses on the D20 itself; if wearing medium armor rolls of less then 10 are automatically glances and deal no damage, heavy armor rolls of 13 or less are auto-glances. Now "direct hits" always do something, but a character on average receives a lot less damage during combat.

So AC for armor goes way down, but a fair percentage of attacks do nothing at all. It doesn't stop you from getting mobbed by poors, or have weird implications for monsters.

Hmm...interesting. In theory, it ought to work-- if the +8 AC from plate reduces your chance of getting hit by 20%, you can ignore d20 rolls of 1-5 and get a similar effect... the problem, though, is that while it works at high levels (ie, if the Tarrasque is only missing you on a nat-1), it get clunkier at low levels, when that roll of 5 would have missed your AC 10 anyway. But even if you worked the math all out, I don't think it would feel different enough. It's basically the same as an attack missing because you have a high AC; I don't think the slight difference is worth the added complexity.

[Tvtyrant]

You could make it much stronger at lower levels and nearly identical at higher by making it even or odd rolls are blanked. The die doesn't care how we parse out ten, so "all odd die rolls are deflected" would amount to 50% against something that hits all the time but still be relevant against creatures that hit half the time.

At that point armor becomes basically binary; you either have a high AC character or an armored character.

[Man_Over_Game]

That being said, 90% if this thread is above my level.

Yeah, that's kinda how I've been feeling. I do want to point out that, while Mending says it is instantaneous, it takes a minute for it to repair anything.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. There's a few concerns that we need to address:

• AC isn't accurate with how real armor works. A slow knight is not hard to hit, he just doesn't take much damage.
• Making a THP, low AC solution means the knight is getting hit constantly, being afflicted against many on-hit effects (like poisons).
• Damage Reduction isn't 100% accurate either, as something like a Rogue has a greater impact than someone with a giant weapon.
• We want the solution to be as simple as possible.

Hmm...So, taking a note from Heavy Armor Master, we could do something like this:

Attacks you take from weapons deal half damage while you have Armor HP (AHP). When your armor blocks these attacks, your armor takes an equal amount of weapon damage against its AHP.

This does a few things:

• Makes the knight an easier target, as intended.
• Reduces the effectiveness of on-hit effects.
• Loses AHP based on brute force vs. finesse from on-hit effects.
• Makes the armor last a bit longer in battle, while also not making the wearer indestructible.

Now the Knight is an effective counter against Rogues or poison wielders, who don't deal much weapon damage. They're still vulnerable to shot-based magic, which means that cantrips and attack spells (Scorching Ray) get more value. The armor is much less likely to be disabled early on in combat, making it an actual feature of your character rather than a temporary buff. Unless someone is using GWM to destroy someone's armor quickly, a knight could be expected to have his armor last the fight (but just barely). The knight is constantly receiving minor damage, meaning that it's easy to gradually heal, which is countered by the fact that the knight is more susceptible to attack magic.

[Kyutaru]

[*]AC isn't accurate with how real armor works. A slow knight is not hard to hit, he just doesn't take much damage.

AC isn't really meant to be avoidance though. It features armor and natural armor that represent toughness. It includes shields that feature blocking rather than dodging. It simply means the hit was a glancing blow at best and didn't harm the target. Full plate knights might be getting hit quite a lot, and you can math out whether their armor protected them or the dodging did, but the actual armor deflects the blow enough that it was not capable of wounding. For D&D, they combine the Chance to Hit with the Chance to Wound that other RPGs leave separate.

Splitting damage between armor and user is okay though doesn't portray this concept of fully deflecting blows. Whether rogue or warrior, your attack needs to penetrate the armor to do anything at all. Which is another reason I'm working on possible armor saves because Armor Penetration should be a thing.

[Breccia]

I've done something vaguely similar in the past: armor that also grants temp hp, but you need special training (a Feat) to do it. Simply put, I am 100% in favor of a class ability, Feat, or similar rule that lets some people just flat-out be better in heavy armor than others, just like with weapons.

But replacing the whole mechanic of AC goes against the grain. And I am not okay with "unbreakable" armor that can't be bypassed -- armor has chinks that a blade can find. And I am less okay with a knight in plate mail laughing off shocking grasp because he's wearing metal armor.

The idea has enough merit to warrant finding a hybrid system, so please continue your efforts. But I don't think giving everyone Touch AC and making 100% of the rest into HP a wizard can fix fits the way it's written here.

While you're at it, also keep this in mind:
A) The players have another encounter after this one.
B) The enemies, typically, do not.

Any change like this one blatantly favors the bandits, monsters, and villain henchmen who can "burn" all their Armor Points in the only fight they'll ever have, turning them into bullet, arrow, sword and/or magic missile sponges, while the PCs have to ration out their Armor Points like sugar in Blitz London and don't get the full effects. I chose that metaphor on purpose because carrot cake is awesome and came from a direct result of sugar rationing. Adversity can bring about great things.

Make us a carrot cake. You clearly have the baking tools, and this thread is full of hungry people.

I'll offer a few "spices": the variant I used in my campaign, with Feat training required, was ceramic plate with 10 hit points. The user could shunt any/all damage taken -- except that which made no sense like breathing poison gas, drowning, or psionic damage -- to the Ablative Armor, which being ceramic, was resistant to fire, lightning, cold, acid, and what poison damage it was allowed to take at all. For players, it was a "get out of OH GOD NOT THE FACE free" card they could play once, while for enemies, it was a clear DM "force" for the party to use intelligent tactics: weapons and selective spells against the AA users so they weren't wasting high level spells for minimal results. Later, the PCs researched special thunder damage they could use that ate AA like popcorn.

Perhaps your system could do something similar?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thinking out loud as I type...

• I think I still like soak the best. The flat damage reduction seems like it'll feel the most like attacks bouncing off your armor, more than miss chance or some sort of temporary HP analogue
• Soak-per-attack is, as has been pointed out, unacceptable-- different classes and archetypes deal damage in different ways, and any sort of per-attack reduction is going to warp the game towards Rogues and other single-big-attack-ers.
• The reason that soak-per-attack doesn't work is that 5e isn't balanced around damage-per-attack, it's balanced around damage per round. Rogues make one big attack, dual-wielding Fighters make lots of small attacks, and everything in between.
• If armor protects you from one guy's attack, it should probably be equally effective against another guy's-- a strict per-round limit would be thematically weird, and would push parties to focus-fire even more than HP already does.
• So... how about soak per turn? Roll all your attacks, roll all your damage, subtract soak and boom, HP damage.
• That said, things like resistances and dividing up attacks might make that awkward; making soak a temp-HP-analogue will probably be simpler.

Running the numbers*, I get:

• Light Armor: 10+Dex AC, 1/2 lv +1 soak
• Medium Armor: 10+Dex (max 2) AC, lv +1 soak
• Heavy Armor: 10 AC, 2*lv + 2 soak
• Plate: 10 AC, 2.5*lv + 2 soak

*If we discount T4 levels, the damage negated/level curves are beautifully straight. And given that levels 17-20 are both rarely played and heavily varied based on player builds and magic items, I don't mind if those are a little off and high-level heavy-armor types come off a bit better.

[Segev]

Another way to approach it would be to make it a straight improvement to armor users. Instead of making it something that is "free" with armor, and thus has to come back out of armor in some fashion elsewhere, make it something simple-to-use that costs a resource. This could be a feat, or even a class feature or a complete archetype.

New Feat: Artificial Carapace
When you are wearing armor with which you are proficient, it gives you temporary hit points. Light armor gives you 1. Medium armor gives you half your proficiency bonus (round down). Heavy armor gives you your proficiency bonus. These temporary hit points refresh at the start of each creature's turn during combat, and are restored every few seconds outside of combat as you make the most of your armor's ability to keep you safe. They do not stack with themselves, nor with any other source of temporary hit points.

[Bjarkmundur]

Thinking out loud as I type...
*snip*

Getting this thought process actually explains a lot! I think I'm getting it now, and getting hyped.

Light Armor:

So we're looking at 14 AC, 3 soak/turn at level 4

Medium Armor:

12 AC, 5 soak at level 4

Heavy Armor:

10 AC, 10 soak

Plate:

Don't give level 4 players full plate lol

I've got so many questions that would be inappropriate to ask at this point of the project xD

So we've divided the "glancing blow" into two categories of dodging and soaking. Interesting.

And yeah, don't worry about post level 16, even the official material goes to weird places at the high levels.

I'm guessing this changes to-hit, as well as mage armor and barkskin?

Giving armor two properties makes all armor upgrades (Splint, breastplate etc) and magic armor that much more interesting.

Is rolling dice for soak more engaging than having it a static number, or simply more complicated? A good rule of game design is making things convoluted enough to make comparisons difficult.
If I were, for example, to make three tanky character classes, I'd give one a way to dodge, one a way to increase his AC, and another a way to heal. This makes comparing them much more difficult, even though I've balanced them to have the same level of tankyness. Variety is the spice of FRPGs.
You've got the soak and AC values at a good place. Should they be kept there, or translated into less-comperable elements, like turning them into dice and dice scalings, which would be tuned to give them different properties. I can imagine light armor high varience built into its dice scaling, since the difference of dodging and almost dodging is huge when not wearing armor for backup. Plate would however have less variance. You know, the little nuances that make these games. We've already established that this optional rule doesn't have to meet the absolute highest standards for simplicity since it's an optional rule to add more mechanics to the game.

Light Armor has a number of soak dice equal to your proficiency bonus.
Medium Armor has a number of soak dice equal to half your level.
Heavy Armor has a number of soak dice equal to your level.

Padded Armor - 1d4 soak - Stealth Disadvantage
Leather Armor - 1d4 soak
Studded Leather - 1d6 soak

Chain Shirt - 1d4 soak
Scale Mail - 1d6 soak - stealth disadvantage
Breastplate - 1d6 soak
Half-Plate - 1d8 soak - stealth disadvantage

Chain mail - 1d4 soak - stealth disadvantage
Splint mail - 1d6 soak - stealth disadvantage
Plate - 1d8 soak - stealth disadvantage

Shield - ?????
+1 Magic armor - 1 extra soak dice

[Dienekes]

Would it be too complicated to try and fix the problem with soak per round against big single hits to simply give melee characters the option to choose how they would attack? Stuff like the old Two-Weapon Rend to add your main and offhand weapons damage together before calculating how the Armor deals with it.

I just kind of feel giving martial more options to handle problems might be more fun than just a refreshing pool that must constantly be mathed our at the table.

[jjordan]

I use armor points. But I use them differently.

Armor points are measure of the durability of your armor. I keep track of what armor the character is wearing and how that contributes to their AC. If an attack would have hit the character if they weren't wearing the armor (but misses because they are) the damage gets applied to the armor instead. The effectiveness of armor goes down as it takes more damage. Fully repairing good armor takes skilled craftsmen days, not minutes. Simpler armor can be repaired more easily by people with less skill. I also allowed armor to be fitted and drop some of the dexterity penalties/limitations (but not all).

So armor protects, takes damage, degrades, and requires repair and maintenance. No rules have to be rewritten and players have additional options where armor is concerned (more 'practical' things to spend money on).

It's the kind of logistical detail that lots of people dislike but I appreciate them and feel that if you don't apply the details slavishly they contribute to the flavor of the game rather than becoming an impediment to play.

[Bjarkmundur]

This thread is just all sorts of interesting. I'd like to point out though, that even though every reply comes up with their own way of increasing the depth of armor mechanics, I'm pretty sure any and all of them would love to use the current version of your 1/round soak. It's intricate, yet simple, it works with the balance of the game and is quite intuitive to use.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This thread is just all sorts of interesting. I'd like to point out though, that even though every reply comes up with their own way of increasing the depth of armor mechanics, I'm pretty sure any and all of them would love to use the current version of your 1/round soak. It's intricate, yet simple, it works with the balance of the game and is quite intuitive to use.

I wouldn't. It's a bunch of extra book-keeping that slows things down without actually solving any problems I have. It all feels like a solution in search of a problem.

[Tvtyrant]

I wouldn't. It's a bunch of extra book-keeping that slows things down without actually solving any problems I have. It all feels like a solution in search of a problem.

The base premise is some don't like the current paradigm. If you do it isn't for you, which is just fine.

[Bjarkmundur]

I wouldn't. It's a bunch of extra book-keeping that slows things down without actually solving any problems I have. It all feels like a solution in search of a problem.

I don't think you fit the criteria "people who commented on this thread with their own armor mechanics", and you've made yourself quite clear before. Thanks though, one always needs opposition to make sure one arrives at the best possible conclusion.

I'd group this whole discussion under the same clause as magic items, lingering injury, and flanking; they're all presented to us as optional rules. Homebrews are always optional rules and should be treated as such.

[AdAstra]

Another way to approach it would be to make it a straight improvement to armor users. Instead of making it something that is "free" with armor, and thus has to come back out of armor in some fashion elsewhere, make it something simple-to-use that costs a resource. This could be a feat, or even a class feature or a complete archetype.

New Feat: Artificial Carapace
When you are wearing armor with which you are proficient, it gives you temporary hit points. Light armor gives you 1. Medium armor gives you half your proficiency bonus (round down). Heavy armor gives you your proficiency bonus. These temporary hit points refresh at the start of each creature's turn during combat, and are restored every few seconds outside of combat as you make the most of your armor's ability to keep you safe. They do not stack with themselves, nor with any other source of temporary hit points.

While I think this a is a good idea to pursue, this particular execution overlaps a lot with Heavy Armor Master. Also, it allows armor to protect against things it really shouldn't (ie psychic and poison), and if it's restricted to physical damage, it's probably significantly worse for anyone who can get HAM.

[Segev]

While I think this a is a good idea to pursue, this particular execution overlaps a lot with Heavy Armor Master. Also, it allows armor to protect against things it really shouldn't (ie psychic and poison), and if it's restricted to physical damage, it's probably significantly worse for anyone who can get HAM.

I'm AFB: remind me what HAM does, please?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm AFB: remind me what HAM does, please?

Reduces nonmagic bludgeon, pierce, slash by 3.

[Segev]

Reduces nonmagic bludgeon, pierce, slash by 3.

Equally redundant with the current proposed changes by the OP, then, isn't it?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Equally redundant with the current proposed changes by the OP, then, isn't it?

Absolutely. That's one (minor) reason I'm not so fond of such changes--you have to rework tons of material so it doesn't conflict. Good variant rules drop right in with limited fit and finish changes to anything not directly affected.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Equally redundant with the current proposed changes by the OP, then, isn't it?

It was my original inspiration, but yeah--I'm thinking I'll replace Heavy/Medium Armor Mastery with a single "Armor Mastery" feat giving a unique ability to all three armor types. Something like...

Armor Mastery
Prerequisite: Proficiency in one type of armor

Select one type of armor you are proficient in--light, medium, or heavy. While wearing armor of that type, you gain the following ability. Once you have used the ability granted by this feat a total of three times, you may not use it again until you have completed a short or long rest.

• Light Armor: As a reaction when you are hit by an opportunity attack, you may cause that attack to miss.
• Medium Armor: As a reaction when you're attacked, you may add your proficiency bonus to either your armor class against that attack or your soak for the round. You may use this ability after seeing the result of the attack roll, but before the result is announced.
• Heavy Armor: As a reaction when you're hit by an attack, you can double your soak for the round.

Special: You may choose this feat multiple times, selecting a new type of armor each time.

[AdAstra]

In regards to easy-to-slot-in changes, if heavier armors need just a little bit of a boost, we could crib from things like 40k and have some sort of armor save against being brought to 0 hp. Perhaps something along the lines of

"If damage would reduce you to 0 HP, you may make an armor save. The DC equals 20 or half the damage you take, whichever is higher. You can gain no bonus to this saving throw except for your armor's base AC (before dex bonuses) -10 (so Plate would give a +8, studded leather a +2). If you succeed, you are instead knocked prone, brought down to 1 hit point, and your armor receives some minor damage, preventing you from using this property with this set of armor again until your next long rest, when you can make necessary repairs."

This allows for armor to have that damage-absorbing ability to some extent, buffs heavier armor, and captures the classic image of a person who takes a seemingly lethal blow, only to stagger back to their feet, clutching their dented breastplate/helmet/codpiece. It's also extremely easy to add to the game, requiring basically nothing else to be adjusted or removed aside from taking into account the balance shifts.

Interestingly, if each set of armor gives its own armor save, that would encourage wearing/carrying multiple sets (sorta like the real practice of wearing mail and gambesons under plate), though that could get out of hand quickly so DM discretion is advised. Hell, maybe it would give 20 dex characters reason to put on some halfplate if they're going somewhere nasty..

EDIT: changed some wording as to not allow for save-boosting abilities to be used with this, plus some other minor revisions.

[Bjarkmundur]

*snip*

Simple and dramatic. It doesn't come up all that often, but it does help players realize that the only DIRECT hits are the ones that bring you down to 0 hp. I have a pet peeve against players dealing 10 damage to a creature and narrating it like they just hacked both arms and one ear off. Just, no. The only attack that actually hits you, is the one that brings you down.

...why DC 20 though? I feel like 15 sounds much more reasonable, especially since it's only applicable once every three or more fights.
There's a lot that can be done using an Armor Save mechanic. I'd love to discuss it on a dedicated thread.

Edit: I, of course, keep my mouth shut during sessions, people can flavor things as they want.

[AdAstra]

Simple and dramatic. It doesn't come up all that often, but it does help players realize that the only DIRECT hits are the ones that bring you down to 0 hp. I have a pet peeve against players dealing 10 damage to a creature and narrating it like they just hacked both arms and one ear off. Just, no. The only attack that actually hits you, is the one that brings you down.

...why DC 20 though? I feel like 15 sounds much more reasonable, especially since it's only applicable once every three or more fights.
There's a lot that can be done using an Armor Save mechanic. I'd love to discuss it on a dedicated thread.

Edit: I, of course, keep my mouth shut during sessions, people can flavor things as they want.

I didn't want the Armor Save to outclass existing don't-die features like Relentless Endurance and Relentless Rage. Means you might not even have to rebalance anything since the power's relatively small. Plus, full plate essentially gives you a 45% chance to avoid unconsciousness once per long rest. Even studded leather gives a 10% chance, small odds, but it makes sense that lighter, quicker armors are apt to fail you when you need it most. I think it's a bit better if it's not something you can count on, so that it's a nice and dramatic moment when it does happen (or doesn't).

Obviously one can adjust to taste, and I hope people do. Perhaps combining it with the ceramic plates mentioned earlier in the thread to give you better odds or can be replaced to "refresh" your armor save. Or maybe, since I forgot earlier, having things that obviously bypass armor, like poison or psychic, negate the armor save. Perhaps you could use your armor save to negate a critical hit instead, turning it into a normal blow. Lots of possibilities.

EDIT: Also, looking at your homebrew sig, I see you've got something similar. Is this a bit of convergent evolution we've got going on, or did you think it was good enough of an idea to make your own version so soon? Regardless, I'm flattered

[Bjarkmundur]

EDIT: Also, looking at your homebrew sig, I see you've got something similar. Is this a bit of convergent evolution we've got going on, or did you think it was good enough of an idea to make your own version so soon?

I went straight from reading your Armor Save idea to cooking up my own version of it ^^
I just posted a thread about on 5e. The idea of using armor as a resource is just beautiful.

EDIT: <3 <3 <3 for reading my sig <3 <3 <3

[Ogrillian]

Just a thought but how a about a simple penalty against attacks

Feat Armor Master you’ve learned how to use your armor to your full advantage.
Light Armor gains +1AC and a -1 to damage for any attack that hits you. Magic ignores this penalty.

Medium Armor subtracts of half your proficiency modifier (rounded down) to damage for any attack that hits you. Magic is -1

Heavy Armor subtracts your proficiency modifier to damage for any attack that hits you. Magic halves this penalty.

If Armor is enchanted with Resistance you may add +2 to the Resistance.

Shields add -1 to penalty


Edit: gonna try and flesh this into a subclass, fighter or paladin though?

[Marcus Amakar]

I really like the AP idea so far but its still got the weirdness of armour stopping providing protection halfway through a long fight.

So what about AP/turn, but a maximum of half the damage can be blocked from any one attack. This would no longer penalise multiple smaller attacks, but would mean more damage can be absorbed from big attacks than DR per attack.
Thus armour wouldn't be degraded over time, but one can still get the feeling of amour being overwhelmed by suffering multiple attacks a turn.

As an added advantage this would also remove the need for armour repair (although this may not be seen as an advantage depending on whether you see armour repair as a feature or a bug)

Off the top of my head example (not tested for balance):

AP: Refreshes every turn. Each turn, may block incoming damage equal to AP, but may only block upto half the damage from any one attack

Light Armour:
AC: 10+Dex
AP/turn: Proficiency mod

Medium Armour:
AC: 10+Dex (up to a maximum of +2)
AP/turn: 2*Proficiency mod

Heavy Armour:
AC: 10
AP/turn: 3*Proficiency mod

Full Plate:
AC:10
AP/turn: 4*Proficiency mod

[Breccia]

I really like the AP idea so far but its still got the weirdness of armour stopping providing protection halfway through a long fight.

To be fair, there's some truth to this. Real-life metal armor was heavy. While knights and soldiers were trained to use it properly -- adjusting their body so that blows deflected at an angle, reducing the effective impact -- stamina is a finite resource. Wearing down an encumbered foe is a valid option. Regardless of your training, 50 pounds of steel is 50 pounds of steel. So, if you wanted to follow that line of thinking, having "armor points" run out in a long fight, in which the character is attacked dozens of times, actually makes sense. I mean, to a certain extent, that happens with regular ol' hit points, too. That guy with 70 HP isn't taking a sword to the face and shrugging it off, his experience and luck have him yank his head back just in time, turning what would kill a normal man into a bleeding cut on the cheek (very anime).

But, of course, this is D&D and the fights don't need to 100% follow real-life biology and physics, or that dragon can't even stand up, let alone fly. So I completely understand either way.

I'll also admit I completely forgot about Heavy Armor Master.

[Potato_Priest]

Eh... For reference, the Tarrasque has +19 to-hit. That gives you an effective AC of 33 in Heavy Armor-the equivalent of having Full Plate +3, Shield +3, Shield of Faith, and Shield.

Even against weaker people, like, say, a random CR 10ish Genie (gonna google them now) has +9 to-hit. That's an AC of 23, the equivalent of Full Plate +1, Shield +1, and the Defensive Fighting Style.

I think TVtyrant was talking about the unmodified d20. So if the tarrasque rolled a 12 before modifiers, it would hit a medium armor wearer but not a heavy armor wearer.

[JNAProductions]

I think TVtyrant was talking about the unmodified d20. So if the tarrasque rolled a 12 before modifiers, it would hit a medium armor wearer but not a heavy armor wearer.

I know. That's an issue.