Thoughts on 3rd party Pathfinder content?

[tadkins]

As DMs and as players, I'm curious as to how you guys feel about all the 3rd party options listed on the Pathfinder SRD. If a player came up to you and asked to play one of those options, what would be your reaction?

There are tons of interesting ones but a small part of me feels compelled to pass them by because of the potential stigma.

[Mehangel]

My opinion? 3pp is fine (in Pathfinder), so long as you don't mix content from multiple publishers (exceptions exist). For example, content from DSP (Dreamscarred Press) is usually balanced against itself, and usually expects a certain level of play/optimization. However, if the inexperienced GM tries to allow such content to mix with that from DDS (Drop Dead Studios), the results can (but not always) be disastrous.

That is not to say that you can't have each player use content from different publisher's, I am merely saying that mixing them on the same character should probably be avoided.

[StSword]

It depends on the material and the campaign.

And since the wiki adds new stuff all the time I'll talk about 3PP in general, since trying to be wiki specific will be outdated in a day or two anyway.

3pp material ranges in power level, something might be too powerful or too weak for the campaign desired.

And even if it's in the sweet spot power wise, adding new options changes the campaign.

A classic fantasy probably won't have a mecha pilot like the Helmsman running around with a barbarian and a sorcerer.

A humanicentric setting probably won't have an adventurer group that consists of a Slime, an Oni, a Werewolf, a Phoenix, and an Earth Elemental playing darts at the local Tavern.

But this is a game, the point of gaming is to have fun.

Adding three party material is the right thing to do if it adds instead of detracts from the groups enjoyment, but by group I'm definitely including the DM.

[tadkins]

Mostly just wondering if something like this would be objectionable or gamebreaking. Seems interesting and I have a character concept in mind for it but I'm not sure what the odds are that it'd make it to a game.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Mostly just wondering if something like this would be objectionable or gamebreaking. Seems interesting and I have a character concept in mind for it but I'm not sure what the odds are that it'd make it to a game.

This is a question for the GM. Regardless of what random forum-goers say about any given bit of 3pp content, it's the GM's decision to allow it or not. If this is a more general question and there's no specific game in mind, then its a moot point. Either whatever prospective GM will allow it or not. The best we could do was give you points to argue for its inclusion.

[Eldonauran]

New archetypes, magic items, and spells? Sure, once I give them a look over and approve them. Material that inserts new mechanics and subsystems? Not a chance. That requires play testing on my part before I even consider it.

The particular bloodline you linked to? Seems well suited for a mid-opt game. I'd have no qualms about it.

[ngilop]

This is a question for the GM. Regardless of what random forum-goers say about any given bit of 3pp content, it's the GM's decision to allow it or not. If this is a more general question and there's no specific game in mind, then its a moot point. Either whatever prospective GM will allow it or not. The best we could do was give you points to argue for its inclusion.

Bolded for emphasis.

This is all that matters and it is different for each DM, I myself would not allow that particular bloodline because I found it very underwhelming and there are bloodlines that do what it does a tad better. But others might think it is too powerful and others might think it is the bees knees and get on board. The answer you get for allowing is going to be as varied as the number of DMs you play with.

[tadkins]

For sure. I was just getting a general idea to see if more GMs are open to that sort of thing than not. Thanks all.

I myself would not allow that particular bloodline because I found it very underwhelming and there are bloodlines that do what it does a tad better.

Eh, I looked at a few bloodlines but they don't quite give as much of what I'd be looking for as that particular one does. The only thing that really prompted me to ask about 3rd party stuff since none of the other standard ones really match the flavor I had in mind.

[Psyren]

Mostly just wondering if something like this would be objectionable or gamebreaking. Seems interesting and I have a character concept in mind for it but I'm not sure what the odds are that it'd make it to a game.

The problem I have with this specific material is that you have to basically know what every single ioun stone+wayfinder combination does in order to properly evaluate this bloodline. This is compounded by the fact that you can benefit both from this and from regular stone+wayfinder implantations. And even if it turns out to be weak, now I have to wonder "are there stronger combinations in the source material that would have made this bloodline more interesting?"

One amusing quirk of this bloodline is that, if you're using the "random" method for determining the resonant power, there's also the result where a wayfinder can be broken or even destroyed by an "adverse reaction." The bloodline entry doesn't indicate what happens to the sorcerer if you get either of those two results from an implantation; presumably the book it came from helps to describe how to deal with that outcome, but the PFSRD entry only tells part of the story. This is a common failing of the third-party material there (i.e. the supporting rules or intent are often found somewhere else on the site... or not at all and you need to obtain the actual book anyway.)


My answer to your more general question of allowing 3PP is "from publishers I trust/can vouch for." This includes the likes of DSP and Radiance House. But then, for those publishers I've already bought their books/PDFs and so don't actually need the site.

[tadkins]

The problem I have with this specific material is that you have to basically know what every single ioun stone+wayfinder combination does in order to properly evaluate this bloodline. This is compounded by the fact that you can benefit both from this and from regular stone+wayfinder implantations. And even if it turns out to be weak, now I have to wonder "are there stronger combinations in the source material that would have made this bloodline more interesting?"

Figured it'd be no different than how a standard conjurer has to know the stat blocks of every single summoned creature. If it came down to it I figured I'd manage.

This is a common failing of the third-party material there (i.e. the supporting rules or intent are often found somewhere else on the site... or not at all and you need to obtain the actual book anyway.)

Hrm, yeah that is an excellent point.

I think I will try to look for something else, hehe.

[Serafina]

For 3PP content in general, I'd recommend that you insist that players tell you in advance what they'll be taking, what they'll use it for, and how it'll interact.

This applies when you're mixing 3PP content with 1st-party content, but even more so when you're mixing 3PP content from different publishers.
That's not because the 3PP content is bad, but because there can be unforseen interactions/combos that make it far stronger than intended or suited for your table. Especially if you mix from different publishers. Actually, the above is good advice even if you stick with 1st-party material - Paizo certainly didn't forsee all the interactions you could pull off either.

If we apply that approach to the Ioun Bloodline, it's pretty tame if you don't use rules like the random resonance method.
Yes, there's a lot of Ioun stones and a lot of Wayfinder resonances - but consider that you can get all that without using the bloodline. At best the bloodline gets you three additional resonant powers - but that's just equivalent to a decent chunk of gold, since there's wayfinders that grant multiple resonant powers.
Still, if you want to be extra-safe, ask the player what resonant powers they intend to get from this. If it's just stuff like "full awareness while sleeping", "grants Blind Fight" or "Endure Elements with immunity to vaccuum and water pressure" or a +1 insight bonus to a check, you really should be quite fine, none of those break anything.

[tadkins]

If we apply that approach to the Ioun Bloodline, it's pretty tame if you don't use rules like the random resonance method.
Yes, there's a lot of Ioun stones and a lot of Wayfinder resonances - but consider that you can get all that without using the bloodline. At best the bloodline gets you three additional resonant powers - but that's just equivalent to a decent chunk of gold, since there's wayfinders that grant multiple resonant powers.
Still, if you want to be extra-safe, ask the player what resonant powers they intend to get from this. If it's just stuff like "full awareness while sleeping", "grants Blind Fight" or "Endure Elements with immunity to vaccuum and water pressure" or a +1 insight bonus to a check, you really should be quite fine, none of those break anything.

I'm honestly not even going for an "off the grid" choice to break the game or anything. I just saw the skills, feats and powers of that particular bloodline, put 'em together, and saw a flavor that I think would be appealing for a character that doesn't exist in the other bloodlines. But yup I will keep that in mind if/when I get a chance to play it, and go for powers that aren't too crazy. Thanks. xD

[Kurald Galain]

As DMs and as players, I'm curious as to how you guys feel about all the 3rd party options listed on the Pathfinder SRD. If a player came up to you and asked to play one of those options, what would be your reaction?

Generally speaking, and with the exception of Dreamscarred Press, my experience is that 3rd party material tends to be poorly written, as well as all over the place in terms of power level.

About the Ioun bloodline in particular, my first thought is that conceptually it makes no sense (Ioun stones are magical rocks that float around your head; how on earth can those be your bloodline?) Aside from that, it revolves around throwing beneficial magic items at your enemies, which is about as practical as that wizard archetype that hits people with scrolls.

So how does this go at, say, level 10? Before combat, you can prepare one of your stones with e.g. Intensified Shocking Grasp. Then during combat you first spend a standard action to give that stone +3 enhancement. Next turn you can toss it at an enemy for 1d4+8+10d6 damage (45 average), and recall it as a swift action. In the next two rounds you can toss it twice more for 1d4+8, and then you're done. That's really bad in terms of action economy and damage; a draconic sorcerer could do 45 damage in a big area using Fireball, and do it again every round. And it's not like Fireball is such a powerful spell.

But hey, at least it's not overpowered.

[tadkins]

Generally speaking, and with the exception of Dreamscarred Press, my experience is that 3rd party material tends to be poorly written, as well as all over the place in terms of power level.

About the Ioun bloodline in particular, my first thought is that conceptually it makes no sense (Ioun stones are magical rocks that float around your head; how on earth can those be your bloodline?) Aside from that, it revolves around throwing beneficial magic items at your enemies, which is about as practical as that wizard archetype that hits people with scrolls.

So how does this go at, say, level 10? Before combat, you can prepare one of your stones with e.g. Intensified Shocking Grasp. Then during combat you first spend a standard action to give that stone +3 enhancement. Next turn you can toss it at an enemy for 1d4+8+10d6 damage (45 average), and recall it as a swift action. In the next two rounds you can toss it twice more for 1d4+8, and then you're done. That's really bad in terms of action economy and damage; a draconic sorcerer could do 45 damage in a big area using Fireball, and do it again every round. And it's not like Fireball is such a powerful spell.

But hey, at least it's not overpowered.

Hehe, when you run it down like that it does give a clearer picture.

Ah well, I guess I'll look elsewhere. Thanks. xD

[Rynjin]

3PP in general is pretty good for PF, especially if you stick to "trusted publishers" like Dreamscarred Press. There are also a lot of great niche books like Thunderscape and Dragon Tiger Ox that can make a campaign in a very literal sense as well.

But most 3PP shouold be evaluated on a case by case basis to avoid allowing...outliers. Like the hideously overpowered Godlings, and the Taskshaper, which is a pretty much completely unworkable concept for a TTRPG class because of the absolutely horrifying amount of bookeeping it causes.

Mostly just wondering if something like this would be objectionable or gamebreaking. Seems interesting and I have a character concept in mind for it but I'm not sure what the odds are that it'd make it to a game.

As for this in particular, it looks fine.

The Arcane Bloodline is the benchmark for Sorcerer Bloodlines. It is both the default Bloodline if you choose no alternative, and arguably the most powerful/versatile in the list.

Is anything that Bloodline can do better than the Arcane Bloodline's passive buffs to your spellcasting? Not really. The 3rd level ability is low key the strongest one there, and really all it amounts to is giving you the Reach Spell Metamagic Feat on all Touch range spells, which isn't too bad, but not exactly earth shattering.

Most Ioun Stone resonant abilities are pretty bad, with the main standout being the one that gives you permanent Protection from Evil.

It runs about average for a Bloodline; good for a specific flavor or build (a ghetto Card Caster Magus with 9 levels of spellcasting in this case) but not as good as the "top tier" few like Arcane/Sage/Empyreal for generalists or Draconic/Orc for blasters.

Looked at in comparison to Bloodlines like, say, Shadow or Impossible though, it's about the same, and neither of those is really that bad.

About the Ioun bloodline in particular, my first thought is that conceptually it makes no sense (Ioun stones are magical rocks that float around your head; how on earth can those be your bloodline?) Aside from that, it revolves around throwing beneficial magic items at your enemies, which is about as practical as that wizard archetype that hits people with scrolls.

The Bloodline fluff at the top explains it pretty well; the stones were bound to the casters' bodies and the energy was passed down to offspring. Makes as much sense as the Maestro, Destined, and Harrow Bloodlines for example.

[tadkins]

3PP in general is pretty good for PF, especially if you stick to "trusted publishers" like Dreamscarred Press. There are also a lot of great niche books like Thunderscape and Dragon Tiger Ox that can make a campaign in a very literal sense as well.

But most 3PP shouold be evaluated on a case by case basis to avoid allowing...outliers. Like the hideously overpowered Godlings, and the Taskshaper, which is a pretty much completely unworkable concept for a TTRPG class because of the absolutely horrifying amount of bookeeping it causes.



As for this in particular, it looks fine.

The Arcane Bloodline is the benchmark for Sorcerer Bloodlines. It is both the default Bloodline if you choose no alternative, and arguably the most powerful/versatile in the list.

Is anything that Bloodline can do better than the Arcane Bloodline's passive buffs to your spellcasting? Not really. The 3rd level ability is low key the strongest one there, and really all it amounts to is giving you the Reach Spell Metamagic Feat on all Touch range spells, which isn't too bad, but not exactly earth shattering.

Most Ioun Stone resonant abilities are pretty bad, with the main standout being the one that gives you permanent Protection from Evil.

It runs about average for a Bloodline; good for a specific flavor or build (a ghetto Card Caster Magus with 9 levels of spellcasting in this case) but not as good as the "top tier" few like Arcane/Sage/Empyreal for generalists or Draconic/Orc for blasters.

Looked at in comparison to Bloodlines like, say, Shadow or Impossible though, it's about the same, and neither of those is really that bad.


The Bloodline fluff at the top explains it pretty well; the stones were bound to the casters' bodies and the energy was passed down to offspring. Makes as much sense as the Maestro, Destined, and Harrow Bloodlines for example.

The thing with me is (and something I suppose I should probably try to discard, rofl) is that when I look at a bloodline, I see a specific character concept/aesthetic in mind. I see a Shadow bloodline sorcerer as someone in a black robe, pale skin, and gloomy demeanor. I see an Orc bloodline sorcerer as a brutish, thuggish person in furs and spikes. The Arcane bloodline specifically states you came from a family of accomplished wizards; what if you didn't and your bloodline is actually made up of mostly working class joes? A Boreal sorcerer as someone in furs and a white robe from the North. And so forth. The Ioun bloodline sorcerer seemed interesting as I pictured an archaeologist (Knowledge History as their skill) who uncovered the secrets of the stones and gained power from it. It's why I thought about trying to make that particular one work.

[Psyren]

Figured it'd be no different than how a standard conjurer has to know the stat blocks of every single summoned creature.

It's not the conjurer that gets burdened here though, it's the DM, because they're the ones responsible for judging the power level of the thing they're allowing - an even thornier problem with 3PP because there've been fewer eyes on it than on the official stuff. This is one of the main reasons why third party is not assumed to be allowed baseline, but on a case-by-case basis.

And this is also a poor analogy in particular for a few reasons:

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1) The DM has to know a bunch of monsters anyway (because he's using them against the players.) Summons therefore are not all that much more mental "real estate."

2) Even if they're all allowed, summons are easily dealt with if they prove to be unbalanced - in addition to being dealt with normally (i.e. hp damage) they have specific weaknesses like dismissals, dispels, magic circles, dimensional locks etc. Meanwhile, taking away someone's treasure because of some unexpected interaction is a much harder sell.

3) Summoning has existed in the game for a long time, particularly since 3.5, so many of the strengths and weaknesses of this strategy are well-known. Wayfinders meanwhile are PF-specific, so there is less institutional knowledge to draw on.

Actually, the above is good advice even if you stick with 1st-party material - Paizo certainly didn't forsee all the interactions you could pull off either.

While this is true, the community is pretty good at sussing these out (thousands of playtesters, effectively) and so even something Paizo completely missed the boat on, you can at least get decent advice or counter-interpretations from a message board somewhere - like this one!

but consider that you can get all that without using the bloodline. At best the bloodline gets you three additional resonant powers - but that's just equivalent to a decent chunk of gold, since there's wayfinders that grant multiple resonant powers.

I find this logic just a bit questionable - lots of character options are equivalent to extra wealth, that doesn't mean that the gold cost isn't a balancing factor and that there are no downsides to allowing those things for free. It might be true in this case though, like I said I'm not an expert on Wayfinders by any means.

The Bloodline fluff at the top explains it pretty well; the stones were bound to the casters' bodies and the energy was passed down to offspring. Makes as much sense as the Maestro, Destined, and Harrow Bloodlines for example.

Agreed, Bloodlines have as much to do with magical mutation of ancestors as they do descending from actual magical creatures.

[AnonymousPepper]

On the topic of the OP: I allow all DSP content by default in my games. I think it's excellently done all around. In short, I treat it as 1pp.

I have not had any experience with any other 3pp other than a tiny bit of Spherecasting here and there, though, but I'm open to a player trying most material from reputable 3pps if I can read over it first.

[digiman619]

Dreamscarred Press' stuff is good, but they haven't made anything new in about 2 years or so. Radiance House's pact magic is basically the Binder form Tome of Magic done for PF and is also good. The spheres systems from Drop Dead Studios (Spheres of Power, Spheres of Might, Champions of the Spheres) are fantastic. Pretty much everything else ranges from pretty good to absolutely horrible.

[Thedez]

I have a GM that let us use all 3PP and I have legitimately had weeks of fun after making my character just looking at all the options.

[Psyren]

I forgot to include Spheres - the system looks great and though I haven't had a chance to play it directly, I've liked everything I've read about it so far. In particular, some of the Paizo classes that ended up being more on the dud side (like Kineticist and Shifter) have Spheres analogues that seem much more solid.

[JMS]

Dreamscarred Press' stuff is good, but they haven't made anything new in about 2 years or so. Radiance House's pact magic is basically the Binder form Tome of Magic done for PF and is also good. The spheres systems from Drop Dead Studios (Spheres of Power, Spheres of Might, Champions of the Spheres) are fantastic. Pretty much everything else ranges from pretty good to absolutely horrible.

I will add Legendary Games as another good company. Most of what I look at is Legendary Games (Particularly the Legendary Classes), Dreamscarred, and Drop Dead. (I love the Legendary Magus and Gunslinger, can’t wait for Alchemist, Medium and Ranger to come out.)

[Mnemius]

Most Ioun Stone resonant abilities are pretty bad, with the main standout being the one that gives you permanent Protection from Evil.

And that one has been errata-ed. It's now Once a day for protection from X, with ability to burn the stone out to immediate action the protection spell. (Turn it dull grey).

[Rynjin]

And that one has been errata-ed. It's now Once a day for protection from X, with ability to burn the stone out to immediate action the protection spell. (Turn it dull grey).

It's not errata'd, it's reprinted. Both versions co-exist, but only the latter is PFS Legal.

It IS a distinction, believe it or not. Just like the choice not to reprint the Guided weapon property did not remove it from the game.