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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    cool Ranger: Dragon Hunter/Dragoon/Jumpman/I don't know anymore

    Just looking for some feedback for a subclass I'm making. I did make this for Ranger (revised), but feel it works for baseline as well. I feel its a little strong, but not sure what to cut. Thinking of switching the big daddy 15th ability for just resistence of whatever chosen dragon they have.


    Dragon Hunter
    Subclass requirement: Must choose dragon as favored enemies at lvl 6.
    Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and for the hunter, there is no flattery greater than to steal abilities from your prey. While many worship dragon's as almost godlike beings, Dragoons see them as the ultimate sport. Their fury is what makes them worth fighting, their claws and scales are the finest trophies. Every dragoon seeks to decorate their home with the remains of these beasts.

    Might of the Dragon:

    At the 3rd level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor.

    Jump

    At the 3rd Level, you gain access to the powerful jump skill. Once per turn, you may use it, granting you the following abilities while in the air:

    * You become immune to fall damage as long as you haven't taken damage during your turn
    * Your standing jump speed is doubled and vertical jump movement doesn't count against your total movement
    * You are considered disengaged during the jump.

    A Dragon's Claw's
    At 5th level, as long as you are using the jump skill, and start a turn at least 20 feet away from an enemy, as an action, you can strike the foe, tripling the dice for damage roll on the weapon.


    Dragon's senses
    At 7th level, you have advantage on all perception checks or insight checks that rely on smell. If you do not have dark vision, you gain so, and have a range of 60 feet. If you have sensitivity to sunlight, you no longer have so for 10 feet.


    Breath of the Dragon
    Having studied dragons your entire life, you are able to mimic their breath. When you hit 11th level, choose a dragon in the table below, and gain its element for the purposes of this attack.

    Black Acid
    Blue Lightning
    Brass Fire
    Bronze Lightning
    Copper Acid
    Gold Fire
    Green Poison
    Red Fire
    Silver Cold
    White Cold


    You let out a 30 foot cone attack of the above element, and every creature in range must make a dex save (Against 8 + prof + Wisdom modifier). On failure they take half your ranger level times d6 damage (Roundaed up) of that damage type, or half as much on a success. You can not use this attack again, unless you roll a 5 or a 6 on a d6 at the start of your turn. You can make this breath attack a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier per long rest.

    In addition, you wear scales of the chosen dragon on your armor, marking your choice.


    Dragon's Improved Senses
    At 15th level, your keen nose can find even the most well disguised dragon. Any creature that is using magic to transform must roll a deception check vs your passive insight. On a fail, you automatically detect them.

    Dragon's Majestic Mantle:
    At 15th level, you are able to mimic the awe a dragon brings. Once, at the start of combat, all hostile creatures within 30 feet must roll a wisdom saving roll against your wisdom saving through. On a failure, they are frieghtened until the end of their turn, and you have advantage on attacks against them while they are freightened. On a success, they become immune for the next 24 hours.
    Last edited by Ganryu; 2019-05-29 at 06:22 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    I'm sorry, the name is a sticking point I can't get past. "Dragoons" are a class of originally French heavy infantry who uses firearms, which is remarkably similar to the name "Muskateer"...but I digress. I get you're trying to parallel, but you're just too far away from the original name that it doesn't fit anymore. I beg you to pick another one. For France.

    I also have other issues which are far more game balance than historical:

    1) "double" and "triple" are words you want be VERY careful with. I'd strongly recommend instead bonus damage which scales with level.

    2) Falling any distance without dying without magic at third level seems strong. Isn't there a monk power you can parallel?

    3) Since the average PC can move 30 feet, it looks like you're allowing them to Jump (disengaging) away, then back, on the same target to multiattack for triple damage with no side effects. Something is going to have to be heavily restricted, or there's no reason to be anything else.

    4) Recharge for a player character ability? This would be the first I remember.

    5) Why does the improved senses use Insight?

    6) If you're making these guys as dragon hunters, giving them a breath weapon...um...doesn't really fit. Someone who hates green dragons, hunts green dragons, and plasters their armor with green dragon scales is not going to go against their most favored target blowing poison gas at them -- the one thing they know won't work. Maybe resistance would be the better play here.

    7) Swapping your Str and Dex scores just...I don't see how that works.

    There's definitely room to make a dragon hunting Ranger archetype. This doesn't feel like it, and the triple damage attack with no real restrictions is overpowered.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    I was excepting a horse riding ranger and went and was disappointed.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I'm sorry, the name is a sticking point I can't get past. "Dragoons" are a class of originally French heavy infantry who uses firearms, which is remarkably similar to the name "Muskateer"...but I digress. I get you're trying to parallel, but you're just too far away from the original name that it doesn't fit anymore. I beg you to pick another one. For France.

    I also have other issues which are far more game balance than historical:

    1) "double" and "triple" are words you want be VERY careful with. I'd strongly recommend instead bonus damage which scales with level.

    2) Falling any distance without dying without magic at third level seems strong. Isn't there a monk power you can parallel?

    3) Since the average PC can move 30 feet, it looks like you're allowing them to Jump (disengaging) away, then back, on the same target to multiattack for triple damage with no side effects. Something is going to have to be heavily restricted, or there's no reason to be anything else.

    4) Recharge for a player character ability? This would be the first I remember.

    5) Why does the improved senses use Insight?

    6) If you're making these guys as dragon hunters, giving them a breath weapon...um...doesn't really fit. Someone who hates green dragons, hunts green dragons, and plasters their armor with green dragon scales is not going to go against their most favored target blowing poison gas at them -- the one thing they know won't work. Maybe resistance would be the better play here.

    7) Swapping your Str and Dex scores just...I don't see how that works.

    There's definitely room to make a dragon hunting Ranger archetype. This doesn't feel like it, and the triple damage attack with no real restrictions is overpowered.
    Meh, might as well respond.

    Was using Final Fantasy use of the term Dragoon. Not particularly attached to the name though.

    1) Main thing is they don't get multi attack, and its only tripling the damage dice. Which, I will admit is still strong. Its supposed to motivate them to pick a new target every turn. They can't jump sufficient enough every turn to get it on the same creature. I suppose some wording should be thrown on to make sure it doesn't stack with multiattack from other classes.
    I'm happy with other damage buffs and I'll think on what to do with it.
    Edit: Turns out my math is bad. 20 strength would give you 16 feet, which would break that rule. Going to make it 20 feet instead.

    2) Perhaps a height limit? Jumping from extreme heights is the entire subclass. Or raising the height limit to 20 feet so their own jump doesn't hurt them.

    3) They'd have to switch targets.

    4) True, and I am unhappy with it. Did base loosely on a dragon, but perhaps a limit to how much I base it off of it.

    5) It uses insight to check how out of place the transformed character is. Smell and pure perception I suppose should work too.

    6) Eh, most 11th level ranger abilities are pretty offensive based. This is the one I am least happy with though. Resistence seems too weak, the breath seems too strong. I'd like an offensive threat here, but can't think of one that wouldn't also break Jump completely, which I am trying to avoid

    7) Meh, weird, but does a few things. Lets Kobold's join in on this melee strength build, let's them play before level 3 (strength rangers tend to suck due to MAD issue.) Not a thing I am particularly attached to, dropping it would be easy.
    Last edited by Ganryu; 2019-05-29 at 01:03 PM.

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Yeah, I agree with the other comments, name needs to change. because I was pumped up for a cavalry ranger, because heavens knows we need it. Actually, mind if I go and do that? yeah, yeah I will. I can't wait to see what you do with this dragony ranger. but please don't be upset when you see the dragoon ranger subclass pop up again as something totally different. I'll probably name it something else like "cavalry" or "mounted" but you know, maybe not.
    anyways, thanks for the inspiration my friend!
    my campaign logs
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    kobold inventor class
    [url]http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587315-kobold-inventor-class-5E-(opinions-wanted)[/url

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    Yeah, I agree with the other comments, name needs to change. because I was pumped up for a cavalry ranger, because heavens knows we need it. Actually, mind if I go and do that? yeah, yeah I will. I can't wait to see what you do with this dragony ranger. but please don't be upset when you see the dragoon ranger subclass pop up again as something totally different. I'll probably name it something else like "cavalry" or "mounted" but you know, maybe not.
    anyways, thanks for the inspiration my friend!
    Changed it to Dragon Hunter.

    Look forward to it!

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganryu View Post
    Was using Final Fantasy use of the term Dragoon.
    Ah. That explains a lot. You can do a lot worse than a turn-based fantasy game to inspire D&D classes. If I come back and your Dragoons are one-handing seven-foot swords, though, I will find you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganryu View Post
    1) Main thing is they don't get multi attack
    I thought they were Rangers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganryu View Post
    3) They'd have to switch targets.
    The rules need to enforce that. I am moderately adept at finding and exploiting the crap out of them. Also, blocking such from my own games because I'm a hypocrite. This one screamed at me. If you want them to swap targets, make it a requirement, not a suggestion.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    when you see the dragoon ranger subclass pop up again as something totally different.
    Can they ride druids?

    I'm sorry, I'll wait for the official release.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Ah. That explains a lot. You can do a lot worse than a turn-based fantasy game to inspire D&D classes. If I come back and your Dragoons are one-handing seven-foot swords, though, I will find you.
    Pshaw, 7 foot he says.




    I thought they were Rangers?
    So are beast masters. 5th level is generally multiattack for them, the jump replaces it with something pretty strong, but pretty hard to pull off, mostly likely every other turn. Jump is either a disengage or engaging tool.

    The rules need to enforce that. I am moderately adept at finding and exploiting the crap out of them. Also, blocking such from my own games because I'm a hypocrite. This one screamed at me. If you want them to swap targets, make it a requirement, not a suggestion.
    Has to start off 20 feet away for it to work, figure close enough.

    You have had some nice suggestions though. Any offensive ability you could think for a dragon hunter at 11th ability? I honestly do not like the breath attack, and ya made a good point of 'if you hunt this type of dragon, why would you use its own element against it?'

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganryu View Post
    Pshaw, 7 foot he says.
    Yeah, that's the level of ridiculous that only FF can pull off with a straight face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganryu View Post
    5th level is generally multiattack for them, the jump replaces it with something pretty strong, but pretty hard to pull off, mostly likely every other turn. Jump is either a disengage or engaging tool.

    Has to start off 20 feet away for it to work, figure close enough.
    I didn't see anything in your description that said Jump replaced Multiattack. So, as a Ranger subclass, I assumed they still had it, and just as bad, the Two Weapon Fighting on top of that. If they don't, that's better, although I still think the Sneak Attack style bonus damage is the way to go -- "double" and "triple" are dangerous words to use in D&D, and you don't specifically restrict the number of attacks.

    If you mean that it works on their only attack per round, that's fine, just be clear. If I was handed this and had to interpret it on my own, I would immediately make one with Two Weapon Fighting and arguably do 3d8, 3d8, and 3d8 (plus stats and magic) at 5th level, shaming everyone else in the fight. If I created a monster that did that to my PCs at 5th level, they'd call me out immediately because they'd be dropping like flies. If that's not what you want, good, clarify the wording that says they lose access to standard Ranger powers -- or take my suggestion and change Jump to a single use of bonus damage.

    And your players will find a way to Jump at the same target, every round. No really, they will. I promise. Remember, everyone has Spring Attack. The rest is just details waiting to happen.

    As for a replacement, offensive, dragon-fighting ability...well, the most obvious thing is "bonus damage to dragons" or "Expertise in attack rolls and saving throws against dragons" which is far too limiting to be of use, since even in their namesake game dragons aren't common enough to build your entire character around. Now, if we agree resistance is too weak, you could amp it up a tad, and harvest something from paladins at the same time.

    "When you reach 11th level, choose a dragon from the bla bla bla table bla bla scales. In addition to the chosen damage type resistance, once per turn when you hit any Favored Enemy with a melee weapon attack, you may sacrifice an unspent spell slot to do 1d8 bonus damage, plus 1d8 for each spell level of the slot above 1st. If the target resists or is immune to your chosen damage type, add +1d8 more. This bonus damage has the damage type of the attack, not the chosen resisted damage type."

    Emphasized to keep the damage down to a minimum. Specifically, Jump should never augment this damage ever, even if you insist on keeping it tripled. This would allow it to be more than just dragons, but not everyone. It also allows for, say, a red Dragon Hunter to really mess up red dragons, but also whatever fire elementals or fiery fiends they happen to hate just as badly. Should they encounter other dragons, they could still mess them up, just not as much as quickly -- just like a paladin can smite golems, but not as badly as undead. As it's based on paladin smiting, but probably a little weaker, so it's probably okay to use here. Maybe. I'd rather start low and tune up, than the other way around, and paladin smiting (even this lower damage version) might yet be too strong for an 11th level ability. The courts will have to decide.

    Now, if you use that exact ability, and also use all the restrictions on Jump we've discussed, bear in mind these guys are likely going to do a lot of damage in the first round. Even if they only get to Jump once, at 11th level, they'll do base damage, plus Jump, plus their highest level slot because they've been waiting all day for this and you don't conserve your best stuff when you're facing a friggin' dragon. That's probably a 6d8 attack when they Jump (again, I promise this will be more often than you think unless you stomp that down flat), 4d8 when they don't, for the first few rounds at least. +1d8 more if the damage type lines up. They will briefly outshine the Fighter or Rogue while doing so, since 7d8+stat is better than 2d6+stat three times if your stat is under 20. Eventually the Dragon Hunter will run out of spell slots (he starts with three 3rds) and the Fighter and Rogue catch up since they use renewable resources. Against nonfavoreds, but groups, the Dragon Hunter retains the action you built them for -- leaping from target to target, doing high damage as long as they keep moving, keeping them competitive without necessarily (numbers tuning) being ridiculous as a seven-foot sword. In some situations (fighting a single nonfavored enemy in tight quarters that prevents Jumping) they'll do low damage with their only attack per round (assuming that's what you intended), and hate it, but that's the life they've chosen. That looks like a decent mix of results to me, but I'm hoping other people are willing to comment as well.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragoon

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I was excepting a horse riding ranger and went and was disappointed.
    I went in expecting a ranger geared towards fighting dragons (like resistance to fear and seeing through their shape change) and was confused.

    Or an alternate beast master with a dragon pal that scaled with them (pun intended)

    Maybe dragon touched. Or conclave of the dragon blessed. Would convey this style better.

    Now I kinda want to make a ranger subclass whose whole thing is that they receive dragon eggs and raise them from a young wyrmling to fight as partners. Kinda like eragon. Each subclass feature level they pick a new perk to apply from a list. I think I'll make this.
    Last edited by MagneticKitty; 2019-05-29 at 06:14 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Ranger: Dragon Hunter

    WHAT DO I CAll THIS SUBCLASS!?
    Last edited by Ganryu; 2019-05-29 at 06:07 PM.

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