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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your unending wit keeps shattering my expectations.
    And here I thought I was just being transparent.

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    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    And here I thought I was just being transparent.
    Probably my fault, I know I can be a pane at times.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatar by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    All hail the dragon.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Ooooh, window puns. This is my jamb.
    ungelic is us

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Would you say the joke was thrown out the window?
    If Iíve told you once, Iíve told you a mullion times.
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    If Iíve told you once, Iíve told you a mullion times.
    At this point it's like the blinds leading the blinds.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatar by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    All hail the dragon.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel View Post
    - the unprovoked attack on the Nightcrawler just now (the good PCs are arguably at least aiding and abetting the aggression started by their neutral allies after the worm tried to defend itself)
    The nightcrawler used Cone of Cold on the Order while they were attacking Gontor, so that characterization of events in the comic has much in common with your assertions about alignment in general: it hinges on shoving away text and imposing made-up weirdness.

    That's not even getting to the implied dichotomy between "we saw the villain who's enacting a plan to literally destroy the world summon a powerful undead creature and start giving orders to it; we'll treat the summon as friendly until it proves otherwise!" and "Listed alignment Evil=kill!" As Lien says, Good, not dumb.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    "we saw the villain who's enacting a plan to literally destroy the world summon a powerful undead creature and start giving orders to it..."
    A creature that actively sought permission to eat people...so it's probably the type of person who eats people.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    The nightcrawler used Cone of Cold on the Order while they were attacking Gontor, so that characterization of events in the comic has much in common with your assertions about alignment in general: it hinges on shoving away text and imposing made-up weirdness.

    That's not even getting to the implied dichotomy between "we saw the villain who's enacting a plan to literally destroy the world summon a powerful undead creature and start giving orders to it; we'll treat the summon as friendly until it proves otherwise!" and "Listed alignment Evil=kill!" As Lien says, Good, not dumb.
    Look again. Haley shoots the Nightcrawler first. And the party doesnít enter the chamber until after the summoning and guard duty discussion. They donít know whatís going on between those two.

    Iíll grant that thereís room to interpret that scene as the party overhearing the whole interaction, but itís at least as reasonable to interpret it that they wouldnít know and just assumed the worm was a valid target for a preemptive strike. I think even more reasonable, since it would be more effective to launch the surprise attack while the bad guys were planning, yet the party did not do that (not as entertaining, though).
    ~Xel

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel View Post
    Look again. Haley shoots the Nightcrawler first. And the party doesnít enter the chamber until after the summoning and guard duty discussion. They donít know whatís going on between those two.
    False, false, and false. You are the one that needs to re-read the comic. The nightcrawler enquires if they are allowed to eat V & Haley, while they are in earshot, as evidenced by Blackwing's comment about crows. Generally, someone inquiring if they can eat their opponents, and then asks if you are considered an opponent and is told you are is already an enemy - Haley is at this point fully justified in attacking, since the worm is working for her enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel View Post
    itís at least as reasonable to interpret it that they wouldnít know and just assumed the worm was a valid target for a preemptive strike.
    No, it is not a reasonable interpretation.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-05-31 at 02:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    False, false, and false. You are the one that needs to re-read the comic. The nightcrawler enquires if they are allowed to eat V & Haley, while they are in earshot, as evidenced by Blackwing's comment about crows. Generally, someone inquiring if they can eat their opponents, and then asks if you are considered an opponent and is told you are is already an enemy - Haley is at this point fully justified in attacking, since the worm is working for her enemy.



    No, it is not a reasonable interpretation.

    Grey Wolf
    Eh, itís a matter of timing. Blackwing hears the comment in panel 8. Haley, V, and Blackwing fly into the room at least by panel 6. The last exchange that specifically identifies identifies the Nightcrawler as guarding the area (and willing to eat people who just want to go by) is panel 4. To me, movement is happening as part of panel 6, so thatís the time frame where Haley, et al are flying in, with the Nightcrawler immediately reacting by having another question. I still think my interpretation is reasonable from the evidence (again, not the only reasonable one).

    Iím quite willing to change my mind on the reasonableness of that interpretation if thereís additional evidence Iíve missed.

    I should also state that I have no problem with the Order attacking the Nightcrawler pre-emptively, based on ďitís EvilĒ (known or unknown to the party). The point is entertainment, and the whole scene with the Nightcrawler is a great bit of heroic storytelling without needing the complications of worrying about moral ambiguity. Thatís the purpose of alignments (IMHO): a helpful simplification for a game system that centers around combat, letting people get on with the heroics without all of the ambiguity of fact, intent, etc, that exist in the real world.
    ~Xel

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    there is something written in runes on top of the door. those things generally hide small jokes / easter eggs. anyone has decyphered it?
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    there is something written in runes on top of the door. those things generally hide small jokes / easter eggs. anyone has decyphered it?
    It says something like "only dwarves may pass."
    You, who have nothing at all to believe in; to you, whose motto is "money comes first;" who are you, to tell us that our lives have been wasted? That all that we've fought for has turned into dust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm jumping on the Zim bandwagon.
    Human stick-figure Twilight Sparkle by me. Find more here.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Probably the same message as before: "Only dwarves may enter".

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So they just do it for the prestige, and could teach a class on it?
    while im not against punning all day... elan has to save puns so he gets his damage bonus

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by magwaaf View Post
    while im not against punning all day... elan has to save puns so he gets his damage bonus
    So you're saying if he runs out, he's just punishing himself?
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  16. - Top - End - #256
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel View Post
    the unprovoked attack on the Nightcrawler just now
    Are you talking about the giant death worm sent by the god of death herself to hasten the destruction of the world?

    The worm who is actively aiding the plan to enslave millions of souls in Hel?

    What is your definition of ďprovokedĒ?

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Probably the same message as before: "Only dwarves may enter".
    Not that it'd work, but what if they were to somehow interpret the barriers wording so that the way they go into it, it would count as an exit, so while only dwarves may enter we, the humans were in fact exiting.


    Of course it doesn't work that way. And I don't see any way to lawyer your way in since its a building with no actual exits. Even if somehow you could "exit" your way inside, that'd be a pointless trick for non dwarves and would be a swerve for no other reason than to have a swerve. It's silly and is somewhat dishonorable for such an honor bound society. Kinda.

    I would expect that kind of reasoning for a trickster god like loki, but this ain't a loki based temple or anything.

    On a serious note, I'm guessing the orange barrier goes through the walls of the building. Otherwise they could break a hole through the side and just bypass the door, either with brute force or magic.

    Or if they could do that, they just didn't think of it. Kind of like how it took haley to think of the 4th xykon in azure city, as the lawful folk just assumed their were only 3 xykons, because they hadn't considered the idea of a 4th.


    Vae Victus!

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Going back to the wall of stone
    This is not a standard one as it summons supporting growths of stone to support it that are non standard
    If anything itís more like summon quick setting concrete
    'Utķlie'n aurŽ! Aiya EldaliŽ ar AtanatŠri, utķlie'n aurŽ! ďThe day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lůmŽ!" The night is passing!"

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Going back to the wall of stone
    This is not a standard one as it summons supporting growths of stone to support it that are non standard
    If anything itís more like summon quick setting concrete
    The spell description states there must be access to ground/rock for the wall to support itself.
    Attention LotR fans
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Going back to the wall of stone
    This is not a standard one as it summons supporting growths of stone to support it that are non standard
    If anything itís more like summon quick setting concrete
    Quote Originally Posted by the SRD
    Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp.
    . .
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    The spell description states there must be access to ground/rock for the wall to support itself.
    Close, but we can get closer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee's Ye Olde SRDe
    Wall of Stone

    Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone.

    The ramp has support pillars created by the wall itself. It would be a good argument, if it weren't for the "this version of Wall of Stone doesn't have that clause" rebuttal.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-06-01 at 10:16 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    I don't get it. It can have any shape as long as it's solidy supported. Durkon did just that.

    Where's the problem? Seems perfectly RAW to me.
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I don't get it. It can have any shape as long as it's solidy supported. Durkon did just that.

    Where's the problem? Seems perfectly RAW to me.
    Supported by existing stone. Durkon created stone supports.
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    All hail the dragon.

  24. - Top - End - #264
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Supported by existing stone. Durkon created stone supports.
    You can explicitly use it to make a bridge. He made a bridge. You can explicitly make arches and buttresses, buttresses would be stone supports.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wallís area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

    Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spellís area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.

    Like any other stone wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and chipping. Each 5-foot square of the wall has 15 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 8. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness.

    It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

  25. - Top - End - #265
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    You can explicitly use it to make a bridge. He made a bridge.
    That's an odd thing to bring up, since I never disputed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    You can explicitly make arches and buttresses, buttresses would be stone supports.
    Well color me wrong! That'll teach me to stop reading too early.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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  26. - Top - End - #266
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ken View Post
    So... the worms orders were...

    "Defend this area." "Yes, this area here, this... uh... platform thing"
    "Prevent anyone from getting through this door into the Middle Chamber. Except us and our mind-controlled thralls".

    The ramp bypasses the platform and goes in through a window - bypassing the "platform thing" and the specified "door into the Middle Chamber"
    I'm not sure if the worm will even try to stop them.

    Meanwhile - Roy is in the worm's mouth!!! (Potential for being swallowed/level drained?)


    Ken D
    Well, there goes my worry that the worm might try to smash the bridge.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    óó> The Joke óó>

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    I imagined the bit about the raccoon was a dead giveaway.
    Nope, tone does not always come across in text, but 'twas a worthy effort, oh Piscine Muse.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clovis View Post
    Mr Scruffy busy scratching away! First he disemboweled a hapless gladiator, now a Death Worm? Go Mr Scruffy!
    and it looks like he actually did damage too! looks like a wound leading from where his claw is!
    my avatar is my gaian avatar, it changes whenever i change on gaia.


    ^ help the order of the stick wiki out? ^

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Given the worm's DR, that's pretty impressive.

  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

    Mr. Scruffy is the PC wih the Leadership feat and Belkar is the cohort.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

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