OOTS #1165 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

Your unending wit keeps shattering my expectations.

And here I thought I was just being transparent.

[Peelee]

And here I thought I was just being transparent.

Probably my fault, I know I can be a pane at times.

[hroþila]

Ooooh, window puns. This is my jamb.

[Fish]

Would you say the joke was thrown out the window?

If I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a mullion times.

[Peelee]

If I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a mullion times.

At this point it's like the blinds leading the blinds.

[Kish]

- the unprovoked attack on the Nightcrawler just now (the good PCs are arguably at least aiding and abetting the aggression started by their neutral allies after the worm tried to defend itself)

The nightcrawler used Cone of Cold on the Order while they were attacking Gontor, so that characterization of events in the comic has much in common with your assertions about alignment in general: it hinges on shoving away text and imposing made-up weirdness.

That's not even getting to the implied dichotomy between "we saw the villain who's enacting a plan to literally destroy the world summon a powerful undead creature and start giving orders to it; we'll treat the summon as friendly until it proves otherwise!" and "Listed alignment Evil=kill!" As Lien says, Good, not dumb.

[Jasdoif]

"we saw the villain who's enacting a plan to literally destroy the world summon a powerful undead creature and start giving orders to it..."

A creature that actively sought permission to eat people...so it's probably the type of person who eats people.

[Xel]

The nightcrawler used Cone of Cold on the Order while they were attacking Gontor, so that characterization of events in the comic has much in common with your assertions about alignment in general: it hinges on shoving away text and imposing made-up weirdness.

That's not even getting to the implied dichotomy between "we saw the villain who's enacting a plan to literally destroy the world summon a powerful undead creature and start giving orders to it; we'll treat the summon as friendly until it proves otherwise!" and "Listed alignment Evil=kill!" As Lien says, Good, not dumb.

Look again. Haley shoots the Nightcrawler first. And the party doesn’t enter the chamber until after the summoning and guard duty discussion. They don’t know what’s going on between those two.

I’ll grant that there’s room to interpret that scene as the party overhearing the whole interaction, but it’s at least as reasonable to interpret it that they wouldn’t know and just assumed the worm was a valid target for a preemptive strike. I think even more reasonable, since it would be more effective to launch the surprise attack while the bad guys were planning, yet the party did not do that (not as entertaining, though).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Look again. Haley shoots the Nightcrawler first. And the party doesn’t enter the chamber until after the summoning and guard duty discussion. They don’t know what’s going on between those two.

False, false, and false. You are the one that needs to re-read the comic. The nightcrawler enquires if they are allowed to eat V & Haley, while they are in earshot, as evidenced by Blackwing's comment about crows. Generally, someone inquiring if they can eat their opponents, and then asks if you are considered an opponent and is told you are is already an enemy - Haley is at this point fully justified in attacking, since the worm is working for her enemy.

it’s at least as reasonable to interpret it that they wouldn’t know and just assumed the worm was a valid target for a preemptive strike.

No, it is not a reasonable interpretation.

Grey Wolf

[Xel]

False, false, and false. You are the one that needs to re-read the comic. The nightcrawler enquires if they are allowed to eat V & Haley, while they are in earshot, as evidenced by Blackwing's comment about crows. Generally, someone inquiring if they can eat their opponents, and then asks if you are considered an opponent and is told you are is already an enemy - Haley is at this point fully justified in attacking, since the worm is working for her enemy.



No, it is not a reasonable interpretation.

Grey Wolf

Eh, it’s a matter of timing. Blackwing hears the comment in panel 8. Haley, V, and Blackwing fly into the room at least by panel 6. The last exchange that specifically identifies identifies the Nightcrawler as guarding the area (and willing to eat people who just want to go by) is panel 4. To me, movement is happening as part of panel 6, so that’s the time frame where Haley, et al are flying in, with the Nightcrawler immediately reacting by having another question. I still think my interpretation is reasonable from the evidence (again, not the only reasonable one).

I’m quite willing to change my mind on the reasonableness of that interpretation if there’s additional evidence I’ve missed.

I should also state that I have no problem with the Order attacking the Nightcrawler pre-emptively, based on “it’s Evil” (known or unknown to the party). The point is entertainment, and the whole scene with the Nightcrawler is a great bit of heroic storytelling without needing the complications of worrying about moral ambiguity. That’s the purpose of alignments (IMHO): a helpful simplification for a game system that centers around combat, letting people get on with the heroics without all of the ambiguity of fact, intent, etc, that exist in the real world.

[King of Nowhere]

there is something written in runes on top of the door. those things generally hide small jokes / easter eggs. anyone has decyphered it?

[zimmerwald1915]

there is something written in runes on top of the door. those things generally hide small jokes / easter eggs. anyone has decyphered it?

It says something like "only dwarves may pass."

[Rogar Demonblud]

Probably the same message as before: "Only dwarves may enter".

[magwaaf]

So they just do it for the prestige, and could teach a class on it?

while im not against punning all day... elan has to save puns so he gets his damage bonus

[Peelee]

while im not against punning all day... elan has to save puns so he gets his damage bonus

So you're saying if he runs out, he's just punishing himself?

[Dion]

the unprovoked attack on the Nightcrawler just now

Are you talking about the giant death worm sent by the god of death herself to hasten the destruction of the world?

The worm who is actively aiding the plan to enslave millions of souls in Hel?

What is your definition of “provoked”?

[WolvesbaneIII]

Probably the same message as before: "Only dwarves may enter".

Not that it'd work, but what if they were to somehow interpret the barriers wording so that the way they go into it, it would count as an exit, so while only dwarves may enter we, the humans were in fact exiting.


Of course it doesn't work that way. And I don't see any way to lawyer your way in since its a building with no actual exits. Even if somehow you could "exit" your way inside, that'd be a pointless trick for non dwarves and would be a swerve for no other reason than to have a swerve. It's silly and is somewhat dishonorable for such an honor bound society. Kinda.

I would expect that kind of reasoning for a trickster god like loki, but this ain't a loki based temple or anything.

On a serious note, I'm guessing the orange barrier goes through the walls of the building. Otherwise they could break a hole through the side and just bypass the door, either with brute force or magic.

Or if they could do that, they just didn't think of it. Kind of like how it took haley to think of the 4th xykon in azure city, as the lawful folk just assumed their were only 3 xykons, because they hadn't considered the idea of a 4th.

[mjasghar]

Going back to the wall of stone
This is not a standard one as it summons supporting growths of stone to support it that are non standard
If anything it’s more like summon quick setting concrete

[Goblin_Priest]

Going back to the wall of stone
This is not a standard one as it summons supporting growths of stone to support it that are non standard
If anything it’s more like summon quick setting concrete

The spell description states there must be access to ground/rock for the wall to support itself.

[Kish]

Going back to the wall of stone
This is not a standard one as it summons supporting growths of stone to support it that are non standard
If anything it’s more like summon quick setting concrete

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp.

. .

[Peelee]

The spell description states there must be access to ground/rock for the wall to support itself.

Close, but we can get closer.

Wall of Stone

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone.

The ramp has support pillars created by the wall itself. It would be a good argument, if it weren't for the "this version of Wall of Stone doesn't have that clause" rebuttal.

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't get it. It can have any shape as long as it's solidy supported. Durkon did just that.

Where's the problem? Seems perfectly RAW to me.

[Peelee]

I don't get it. It can have any shape as long as it's solidy supported. Durkon did just that.

Where's the problem? Seems perfectly RAW to me.

Supported by existing stone. Durkon created stone supports.

[Doug Lampert]

Supported by existing stone. Durkon created stone supports.

You can explicitly use it to make a bridge. He made a bridge. You can explicitly make arches and buttresses, buttresses would be stone supports.

This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell’s area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.

Like any other stone wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and chipping. Each 5-foot square of the wall has 15 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 8. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness.

It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

[Peelee]

You can explicitly use it to make a bridge. He made a bridge.

That's an odd thing to bring up, since I never disputed it.

You can explicitly make arches and buttresses, buttresses would be stone supports.

Well color me wrong! That'll teach me to stop reading too early.

[h0m3st4r]

So... the worms orders were...

"Defend this area." "Yes, this area here, this... uh... platform thing"
"Prevent anyone from getting through this door into the Middle Chamber. Except us and our mind-controlled thralls".

The ramp bypasses the platform and goes in through a window - bypassing the "platform thing" and the specified "door into the Middle Chamber"
I'm not sure if the worm will even try to stop them.

Meanwhile - Roy is in the worm's mouth!!! (Potential for being swallowed/level drained?)


Ken D

Well, there goes my worry that the worm might try to smash the bridge.

[KorvinStarmast]

——> The Joke ——>

Spoiler

Show

I imagined the bit about the raccoon was a dead giveaway.

Nope, tone does not always come across in text, but 'twas a worthy effort, oh Piscine Muse.

[gatemansgc]

Mr Scruffy busy scratching away! First he disemboweled a hapless gladiator, now a Death Worm? Go Mr Scruffy!

and it looks like he actually did damage too! looks like a wound leading from where his claw is!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given the worm's DR, that's pretty impressive.

[Particle_Man]

Mr. Scruffy is the PC wih the Leadership feat and Belkar is the cohort.