Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 91 to 100 of 100
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    One possible way of making it more of a first level spell might be something like (and this is just an idea, I've not tested balance):

    As a reaction gain 5 temp hp. You lose any remaining temp hp at the end of the current character or creatures turn.

    Very useful at low levels for keeping the wizard alive, not so useful at high levels, but not useless either. It's a free 5 hp every reaction, but there are probably other useful first level spells to cast. Maybe even allow it to be upcast somehow for stronger versions, so players can use it at higher levels but it still actually costs appropriate spell slots to cast.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakinbandw View Post
    One possible way of making it more of a first level spell might be something like (and this is just an idea, I've not tested balance):

    As a reaction gain 5 temp hp. You lose any remaining temp hp at the end of the current character or creatures turn.

    Very useful at low levels for keeping the wizard alive, not so useful at high levels, but not useless either. It's a free 5 hp every reaction, but there are probably other useful first level spells to cast. Maybe even allow it to be upcast somehow for stronger versions, so players can use it at higher levels but it still actually costs appropriate spell slots to cast.
    This is worse than the version suggested in the first place. No thanks.

    For reference, Armor of Agathys gives you 5thp and deals the same amount in damage, scales with spell slot level and lasts an hour. False Life is 1d4+4thp scaling with slot as well.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    @Jakinbandw:
    Personally, I'd rather not be hit, then have a few tHP. When the Giant is doing 2d8 damage per hit, an extra 15 Hp (costing 3rd level slot) isn't much help. Especially for only 6 seconds! Being able to maybe avoid the hit with a 1st level slot reaction, and still drop a good (3rd Level) damage spell is much preferred.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    The problem with using NPCs with "sound tactics" is that the tactically smart thing for them to do in any non-Deadly combat is to withdraw from combat and join up with OTHER monster groups. It's tactically stupid for monsters to let you have multiple Medium encounters instead of one great big uber-deadly encounter.(1) But getting TPK'ed tends to be less fun for the players, so it's the DM's job to think up reasons for the monsters to be stupid (2), one of the best of which is "the monsters really are stupid brutes, not disciplined tool-using combat veterans".

    There's nothing wrong with uber-Deadly encounters of course, but they're not common at most tables.
    1) It's sometimes funny as to why that Monster is even where the PCs find it.
    I mean, I can't count how many times I've seen Random Encounter charts used to figure out what the Boss/BBEG is!!!

    2) Most Experienced Players know this.😇

    IME/O Small-medium Balanced "Tactics" is Ö. Difficult to portray in a "realistic" or "living world" game, and if being used (especially Deadly Tactics) should be stated in Session Zero.

    In the case of Monsters with low Int, playing them dumb is fine.

    But, there are a few ways to have small-medium groups encountered.

    Spoiler: Use their Racial traits against them
    Show


    Orcs are more individual minded and are aggressive, and rarely think of personal survival. Unless dealing with overwhelming Odds.

    Hobgoblins have the "Save Face" flaw, which means not only not showing weaknesses to those around them, even returning to the Base from anything but a Deadly fight (to warn of the threat) will cause them Shame.

    Now, Goblins are guerrilla-fighters to begin with.
    Large groups attract too much attention.
    But, Players should watch out for even one Goblin getting away, as it will bring more back.

    Kobolds areÖ the hardest to justify being dumb.
    Stupid Kobolds are used as Ambush Bait.
    But, terrain can limit how many can directly engage the Party.

    Ogres and Hill Giants are not that bright, and are very impressed by their strength.

    Encounters with these Monsters in their Lair/s, should be harder, since most are smart enough to take full use of all advantages.
    *****
    Now, going further up the Tiers,
    Monsters that are Encountered should be smarter, as well as tougher.

    But, keep in mind that most lower monsters are not willing minions, and might not immediately join (or only one or two per PC will engage) in the Boss Fight. Or they will disengage when at less than half health. (Each individually)

    Beholders are paranoid, and only Charmed minions are allowed in the main Lair. A well placed Dispel Magic can turn these minions against the Beholder. It also has to be careful not to include any Charmed Minions in the area of the Anti-magic Ray.

    Mind Flayers are rarely encountered near the Elder Brain, and they also Charm and Dominate minions. While these will work with other Illithids, they tend to be a lot more "self interest", and will gladly leave others - Illithid and Minion - to their death/s to survive.

    I'll be honest, I refuse to run any Dragon (except maybe Wyrmlings) as being really tactically stupid.
    But then, they are half the Name of the Game!!
    *****
    I'm sure there are more examples, but I'm tired.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-05-31 at 02:02 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Kobolds are more of a level 10 example. But most CR 1 creatures have roughly the same hit chance as a CR 1/4 or CR 1/2.

    I suppose there's the hypothetical that Chromatic Orb is useful at later levels, because of its versatility, but....who has actually seen that in play? 3d8 damage isn't bad, but most people would just still opt to cast something else. Even resisted, Chain Lightning would deal 5d8 to the resistant target, and deal 10d8 to 3 other creatures. A single action, dealing almost 10x the damage per round as a Chromatic Orb, and that's assuming the creature is resistant to Lightning damage.

    Higher level illusion spells, damage spells, healing spells, buff spells, all trump the spells that you'd used to use at lower levels. But...what makes Shield redundant? The only thing I can think of that comes close is Counterspell.
    Sure, but that has more to do with how they made blasting spells mostly scale by the level you can get them rather than the level you cast them at.

    Shield never becomes redundant, but it gets less useful as you can take more than one attack without dying, and with monsters outpacing your defenses.
    Reality is relative, and there is an exception to every rule.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2015

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    For example, if there was a level 1 spell that said "Make an extra attack this turn", people would be all over it.
    I saw this comment and I just thought, "Well that's Divine Smite's whole deal." So you're not wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Hideous Laughter: " A creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or less isn't affected. "

    There's a lot of overlap between not being "humanoid" and "creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or less". Not always, but you're not going to be afflicting something like a Bulette with Hideous Laughter. Most enemies you face are either Humanoid or dumb.
    Not a lot of call for sorcerers to cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter since it's not on their spell list, unfortunately.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Yes, that's part of it... but I think another part of it is the conceptual coolness of blocking attacks with your spell. (Just like Harry Dresden!)

    Evidence in favor of this theory: despite how offense-oriented and DPR-focused the GITP zeitgeist is, nobody cares as much about Infernal Rebuke or whatever it's called as they do about Shield. (I don't dispute that Infernal Rebuke is pretty trashy from an efficiency perspective, but it's slightly better than the Paladin's Divine Smite, which people love for some reason, so logically its inefficiency cannot explain its lack of popularity.)
    Hellish Rebuke, and in addition to Chaos Jackal's explanation, it's also a warlock-list-only spell so the competition for spell slots leaves it off of most consideration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Jackal View Post
    Eh, Divine Smite is also a proactive move, the usage of which you can control, including it being selected after rolling a 20, while Hellish Rebuke, apart from granting a saving throw, requires you to get hit in the face first, and no d6 HD character wants to get hit in the face.
    To be precise, the warlock is a d8 HD character and explicitly has a spell for getting hit in the face (armor of agathys) but then you'd have used all your spells on getting hit, and that's not proactive enough for people.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Or, put another way, swarming a target will work, unless the boss you're fighting has Shield. Very few spells scale the same way as Shield does, as efficiently as Shield does, because AC barely changes compared to every other variable in the game. Even vision goes through more dramatic changes every 5 levels to cause certain spells to no longer have the "oomph" they once did (like Invisibility).

    I'll probably go back to the drawing board. My goal is to find a way to modify Shield so that it's a level 1 spell....and stays that way. Not a level 1 spell that you're reliant on at level 15.
    I like using skeletons for my white rooms for this stuff cause its in the PHB, 1/4 cr 50xp. A size for a DMG hard encounter for a level 15 wizard is ... 86!
    a 15th level wizard will have gotten 4 ASIs, probably a 20 int and 20 dex with point buy if feats are not allowed(cause warcaster is that good) mage armor is up cause it is armor that a mage can use for AC 18 or AC 23 with shield. skels have a +4 to hit so a 19 or better so 10% chance to hit though the shield or 14 or better without so 35% chance to hit. 86/10 = 8.6 hits per round 4.3 of which are crits for an average damage of ... 56.35 damage a round or this wizard is dead in like two rounds if she doesn't thin this crowd down with higher level spells.
    Conclusion 1: swarming still works against shield.
    Conclusion 2: shield will keep a wizard alive for a few rounds but is irrelevant for winning the battle, higher level spells are still needed.

    But there is a second argument, shield vs other 1 level spells, damage spells are all irrelevant cause either not enough damage to get kills or not enough aoe to get enough kills(and are out scaled by cantrips at this point) so defense or disable is what we will focus on, fog cloud would be able to stop line of sight of the skels effectively blocking fire as would silent image, mage armor is also relevant because of its effective combination with shield. The only reason shield performs as well as it does is the reaction casting allowing the wizard to attack and defend at the same time.
    Also, a side argument that first level spells at early levels can decide encounters with their use, thunderwave, grease, tasha's laughter, and sleep all can end encounters at low level, these drop off but if they didn't we would never use higher level spells.

    If you want to fix shield so that it doesn't break the game, I think the solution is do nothing
    My sig is something witty



    I am a:
    Spoiler
    Show
    I Am A: Lawful Good Human Wizard/Sorcerer (1st/1st Level)
    Ability Scores:
    Strength-11
    Dexterity-13
    Constitution-13
    Intelligence-14
    Wisdom-12
    Charisma-14

    what are you

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    ON THE EDGE

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Why change it at all?

    Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. Is there a set of circumstances going on in your game that makes you feel shield is a problem spell? If so, I'd like to share my personal motto: before nerfing or removing something, try adding something instead.

    So in this sense, if your monster's attacks are being thwarted by shield regularly, consider adding a +2 or maybe even +3 to hit to their rolls to compensate, or have your monsters make more use of things like the Help action to give advantage. These can mitigate the effectiveness of shield without altering it, which as demonstrated previously in the thread can potentially impact a lot outside of the spell itself in a negative fashion.
    Walk boldly, and discover a world of wonder...

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    I saw this comment and I just thought, "Well that's Divine Smite's whole deal." So you're not wrong.
    If Divine Smite required a separate attack roll and cost your reaction, it would be more like this hypothetical spell, and it would also be less popular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Hellish Rebuke, and in addition to Chaos Jackal's explanation, it's also a warlock-list-only spell so the competition for spell slots leaves it off of most consideration.
    And yet Sorlocks, Bardlocks, and Padlocks still don't use it, usually. I can therefore reasonably infer that they would be even less interested in a reaction spell that gives you one melee weapon attack for one spell slot, because that would require an attack roll instead of save-for-half.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-06-02 at 02:52 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    You're welcome.

    And yeah, the scarcity of reaction spells is a big part of Shield's greatness.
    Some of the greats are reactions- Absorb Elements/Counterspell come to mind. If I'm shielding this attack, I'm not counterspelling that fireball or whatever.

    Overall, I think there's some overstating the uniqueness of Shield as "useful at all levels so it's broken." Many first level spells remain as useful in the endgame as they were in the lategame.

    I think there's definitely some parties who aren't facing enough casters, sneak attacks, and flankers. And probably not enough encounters per day. A level 20 wizard should be the first target of any monster with an int score higher than 10 and strong enough to be there.
    Back in my day we used all of our spells before the fight, and it was just a matter of time before the DM realized his encounter was over.
    And we walked to our dungeons uphill through the snow, both ways.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Change to the Shield spell to account for Bounded Accuracy...Is it still usable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Some of the greats are reactions- Absorb Elements/Counterspell come to mind. If I'm shielding this attack, I'm not counterspelling that fireball or whatever.

    Overall, I think there's some overstating the uniqueness of Shield as "useful at all levels so it's broken." Many first level spells remain as useful in the endgame as they were in the lategame.

    I think there's definitely some parties who aren't facing enough casters, sneak attacks, and flankers. And probably not enough encounters per day. A level 20 wizard should be the first target of any monster with an int score higher than 10 and strong enough to be there.
    Hell, even pretty dumb creatures that have strong self-preservation will frequently go for the weakest-looking member of a group. Thatís pretty standard predator instinct at the very least, ie wolves and such. From how I see it, the only monsters that would deliberately choose to attack the big dude in plate first are creatures that value challenge or glory over survival odds. If the monsters are able to bypass the frontliners without taking opportunity attacks, Iíd definitely have them do so at least half the time. If you want to tank hits for other players, either stick close, find good positioning, or make yourself too big of a nuisance to be ignored (like a cleric with spirit guardians)

    of course, this is getting into monster psychology and dm tactics, rather than mechanical problems with shield. Got more thoughts on that, but later because Iím on mobile

    EDIT: Okay back. If the goal is to reduce the power of Shield late-game so it's not such an auto-use, why not just have it last for the one attack, maybe giving an even bigger AC bonus to compensate? Since at higher levels you're more likely to take more hits, due to more monsters, many with multiattack, this seems like it would reduce the value by a lot.

    Also Hellish Rebuke is probably less valued than Divine Smite because it gives a save, takes up a spell-known, is only on a class whose spell-slots scale up, so only stuff that's good to upcast will likely be kept for long (Hell, even Shield isn't really worth it for a Hexblade to keep past level 5 or so. 4d10 save for half as a reaction probably isn't worth it either), and it does have a small (re)action cost where Divine Smite has none at all, and a lot of people probably just forget about it.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2019-06-02 at 11:40 PM.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •