The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    So, riffing on this concept a bit...

    Here's the canon:

    https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/w...al#Reemergence

    Short version: Adrian and another Bhaalspawn fight it out in Baldur's Gate in 1482. One of them kills the other, the one who survives becomes a monster, and the monster is killed by a group of adventurers. Bhaal rises, close curtain.

    Turning that into a game:

    It is 1502. The Bhaalspawn was killed 20 years ago by a rival Bhaalspawn, but had enough divine power that they reincarnated with someone with whom they had a close emotional bond. Depending on your starting class and alignment choice, you start as the ward of one of your former companions... Jaheria, Aerie, and Vicona are all good choices, but Jan Jansen, an elderly and powerful Imoen or Cernd, Kivan or Neera, maybe Caelar Argent or Haer'Dalis... or Hexxat. Me, I wanna be raised by Wilson. But there are lots of choices of people who are not canonically dead and have a good reason to be long-lived (since we're about 140 years after ToB).

    You know who you are. You were raised, perhaps in Candlekeep, like your previous incarnation. And you have a growing fragment of the power of Bhaal in you... and Bhaal wants it back.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The original Baldur's Gate series came out in a different time, before choices carrying over from game to game was such a big deal. Or even any kind of deal. I can't imagine them directly tying this game to the originals while ignoring or retconning the ending. Because it is a big deal now.
    Its really not though. Its kind of an interesting thing in some games, but even the most complex games that incorporate that sort of stuff don't change too many things based on an old playthrough. Its just not feasible to actually wildly alter game states like that.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its really not though. Its kind of an interesting thing in some games, but even the most complex games that incorporate that sort of stuff don't change too many things based on an old playthrough. Its just not feasible to actually wildly alter game states like that.
    Quest for Glory did it BUT they also had relatively few win-states... if you were of class X, you did things Y, or you didn't get to the end of the game. About the only thing that really didn't have to happen, that I recall, was banishing Baba Yaga in the first game... you could bypass that by going straight to the castle.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its really not though. Its kind of an interesting thing in some games, but even the most complex games that incorporate that sort of stuff don't change too many things based on an old playthrough. Its just not feasible to actually wildly alter game states like that.
    I think Mass Effect is still the game with the most choices kept, outside of outright Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style adventures like the various Telltale games. It's certainly the RPG with the most choices kept.

    And what does that amount to? In terms of major story beats...not much. There are understudy characters in place for if you get some of your party killed, and you can get locked out of the best ending to the Geth/Quarian war. There are enough little nods to the past story to keep it different, but the main plot points remain the same throughout.

    I agree with the general sentiment that Baldur's Gate is a closed story and shouldn't be re-visited. However, the argument that you can't do so because of story reasons just doesn't hold water. There are many ways to get around an ambiguous ending, and choices made during a previous game are overrated. So if the decision to make a sequel has been made, then sure. I'm willing to give them a chance.
    Last edited by Rodin; 2019-06-04 at 11:11 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    I think they could do other Forgotten realms or stories based out in Faerun, but Baldur's gate is done. From my understanding, most of their stories take place along the sword coast, all the way up north to the south. . .

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    If they produce a game called Baldur's Gate 3, I don't think they're going to do any form of "your previous protagonist got the shaft," whether by death or by being turned into a monster. The Venn diagram of people who would be put off by that and people who would be drawn to the Baldur's Gate title to begin with is nearly a circle.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    If they produce a game called Baldur's Gate 3, I don't think they're going to do any form of "your previous protagonist got the shaft," whether by death or by being turned into a monster.
    Some franchises have managed to pull it off without alienating the fans too much - usually by having protagonists with a bit less character though.

    Diablo, for example.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Some franchises have managed to pull it off without alienating the fans too much - usually by having protagonists with a bit less character though.

    Diablo, for example.
    Diablo games don't tend to end with happy situations - when your character shoves the Sealed Evil In A Can into their own forehead or has to destroy the literal keystone of the world in order to prevent a greater corruption it's pretty obvious that you're not headed to a good place, and those actions actually directly lead into the next game's plot - in Diablo 2 and 3 your player character is the champion who winds up trying to clean up after the dumb thing/phyrric victory the previous game's character did.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Given that one of the options for CHARNAME is "ascended to godhood" for a portfolio that has been until recently vacant they've got more to attend to than the affairs of the prime material.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, riffing on this concept a bit...

    Here's the canon:

    https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/w...al#Reemergence

    Short version: Adrian and another Bhaalspawn fight it out in Baldur's Gate in 1482. One of them kills the other, the one who survives becomes a monster, and the monster is killed by a group of adventurers. Bhaal rises, close curtain.

    Turning that into a game:

    It is 1502. The Bhaalspawn was killed 20 years ago by a rival Bhaalspawn, but had enough divine power that they reincarnated with someone with whom they had a close emotional bond. Depending on your starting class and alignment choice, you start as the ward of one of your former companions... Jaheria, Aerie, and Vicona are all good choices, but Jan Jansen, an elderly and powerful Imoen or Cernd, Kivan or Neera, maybe Caelar Argent or Haer'Dalis... or Hexxat. Me, I wanna be raised by Wilson. But there are lots of choices of people who are not canonically dead and have a good reason to be long-lived (since we're about 140 years after ToB).

    You know who you are. You were raised, perhaps in Candlekeep, like your previous incarnation. And you have a growing fragment of the power of Bhaal in you... and Bhaal wants it back.
    MORE FUN.

    If your character is "weird" by the standards of 2e, it's an aspect of ANOTHER Bhaalspawn that CHARNAME absorbed. Dragonborn? Well, there were a couple dragons amount Bhaal's Brood. Warlock? SOMEONE sold their soul to a demon in there, I don't doubt.
    The Cranky Gamer
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    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    If Larian is involved, I'm thinking you stop being a god somehow and maybe "forget" all your Divinity powers. Time to regain your power and save the world from Bane.

    Though if this is just a rumor, it may be Half-Life 3 confirmed.
    Last edited by Kyutaru; 2019-06-04 at 12:31 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    If they produce a game called Baldur's Gate 3, I don't think they're going to do any form of "your previous protagonist got the shaft," whether by death or by being turned into a monster. The Venn diagram of people who would be put off by that and people who would be drawn to the Baldur's Gate title to begin with is nearly a circle.
    Though you're at least somewhat right on potential general reactions, I'd rather have Charname get the biggest shaft ever seen in the Realms, than play the same old character in a 2020 RPG.

    Still, all of the fans (including me) will probably play whatever that comes out, unless it's really, amazingly bad on a general consensus level.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2019-06-04 at 01:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    I don't think many people actually expect us to play the original protagonist again. The question is more about whether the new story will have anything at all to do with the old one.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Now I kind of what BG3 to be a direct continuation - i.e. ridonkulously high-level game where we play as a god-slash-adventurer with obscenely high-level stuff doing frack-knows-what with truly multiverse-shattering stakes (ooh, ooh, like dealing with Vecna breaking through reality because the Die Vecna Die! party failed horribly - that being, basically, the last module under AD&D released, of which the upshot was it worked in a semi-plausible excuse as to why the edition changed, because Vecna went to a place where Gods Aren't Supposed To Go and had to be stopped by the PCs...)

    Possibly, because we're the new god (slash-ex-near-divinity) we have to start by killing the rat-gods in the Divine Basement...
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-06-04 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Trying to import saves from a game that came out 20 years ago is just asking for trouble. It also really hamstrings what options the developers have in telling a story. Even in games like Mass Effect and the various Tell-Tale games, where they where specifically designed with carry-over in mind, the actual changes were fairly minor. So trying to take a story that wasn't designed like that in the first place, and had very major event outcome differences, is just asking for trouble and to not make anyone happy.

    There are really three options, a "canon ending," a prequel, or set far enough in the future that the events from the previous game are now all rumor and legend. The rumor and legend is a bit harder to pull off in a D&D setting with very long living races. I suppose there could also be some other sort of event that etch-a-sketched the world a bit. "That CHARNAME did a great job cleaning up the place. Yeah, too bad that asteroid hit just afterwards and threw everything into chaos."

    While I think "canon ending" is the most likely and easiest, it does run into the most issues with existing player's expectations. But then again, existing players are the most likely to pick up the game regardless and many of them have probably beat the game many different times so they probably have some play-throughs that will match the story even if it isn't their favorite.

    In the end what is going to matter is if the game and story are good. If they do a good job any choice they make will seem like it was the right choice, and if the game is bad then people will be blaming it on anything and everything they can think of. Because no game is good or bad because of back-story that happened in previous games (or other media, books, etc.)

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Wasn't Legends of the Sword Coast the first 5e videogame? I didn't do much with the multiplayer, but the story campaign was kind of fun.
    I've honestly never even heard of this before today. Did it use 5E mechanics?

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    I like how Witcher 3 did the previous game decisions. You’re asked some questions, has noticeable effects on the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    I've honestly never even heard of this before today. Did it use 5E mechanics?
    Mostly. It wasn't very good to be honest.

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    I still think it is odd that for all the "4E is an MMO" talk back in 2008, they never made 4E videogames.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    I've honestly never even heard of this before today. Did it use 5E mechanics?
    Probably because the game was gutted, quite enthusiastically murdered by its own developers. It promised the world and demonstrated great potential in the early previews of the DM tools but all of that was slashed by budget hoarders and turned into something obscene and heretical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I still think it is odd that for all the "4E is an MMO" talk back in 2008, they never made 4E videogames.
    They actually did. Neverwinter is based on 4E. It's an MMO.
    Last edited by Kyutaru; 2019-06-04 at 09:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I still think it is odd that for all the "4E is an MMO" talk back in 2008, they never made 4E videogames.
    4E came out during a relative drought period for classic RPGs with BioWare moving on from being restricted by D&D licenses and ending up creating Dragon Age, Interplay (and Black Isle Studios) being long dead in the water and Troika games ran out of funding by 2005. Obsidian started work on the 3.x based NWN2 around the time of the big edition transition, so there was no time to change it all up into an 4E game and if Chris Avellone is to be believed no one wants to work with Obsidian anymore after the first game they release for an IP.

    With the lukewarm reception of 4E in enthusiast communities and all those complications like the online DM tools coder committing murder-suicide it's just really been a bad time. I loved 4E and personally figured it would make a solid Final Fantasy Tactics-style game, but c'est la vie.

    5E's only attempt at a video game adaptation so far, Sword Coast Legends, was not only disappointing, but also buggy as all hell. There are many better RPGs, SCL is just... okay. Pathfinder: Kingmaker at least backs its falling-through-the-floor, loot-eating-chests bugginess with excellent gameplay and a faithful mechanical adaptation. But 5E is going strong and it still has time, and the aforementioned Pathfinder was a game outsourced to some Russian studio of enthusiasts, so it might be easier to make a game like this nowadays.

    Also it doesn't help that SCL's marketing was absolute garbage, for however meager it was. It didn't really make a show anywhere outside of the RPG enthusiast communities where it tried somewhat cynically to promise another spiritual successor to BG and NWN. Cynically, because it was obvious the actual game was a few kilometers South of the expectations.

    Also it's not even a good adaptation of 5E. The system used in SCL is some adulterated facsimile.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-06-04 at 11:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    The biggest thing is that the license just doesn't hold the same power that it used to. Divinity OS, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny...why tie yourself to a tabletop game system that may not be suitable for a videogame when games that aren't doing that are doing perfectly well without the power of the D&D license backing it? I can't help but think even Baldur's Gate would have been more accessible if it wasn't tied to THAC0 and the other oddities of 2ed.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I can't help but think even Baldur's Gate would have been more accessible if it wasn't tied to THAC0 and the other oddities of 2ed.
    OTOH, the oddities of 2ed also bring us the multitude of spells (and the various subtleties and intricacies wrapped with them) and likely the game system was bundled with that classic Forgotten Realms world feel that was a massive draw to the game. The way you can sculpt a spellcaster's book in BG to fit not only an interesting mechanical quirk but also have considerable roleplaying considerations is something I think other games of its type didn't necessarily grasp to the same extent, although I think they were still fun to play (No, I'm not trying to exalt the virtues of spells like Goodberries or Infravision, of course, but it's still surprising how many different things really do work in this engine). There's so many items and spells you can mix and match for interesting results.

    That said, I agree that the license doesn't seem to hold the same power either, especially considering that some of the stuff released under the D&D banner doesn't exactly appear inspiring. The issues with SCL's bad 5E adaptations were brought up before (the game even gets rid of many of the D&D core classes!... for... some reason), and then there's stuff like the Forgotten Realms cookie clicker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    games that aren't doing that are doing perfectly well without the power of the D&D license backing it
    I feel like the low sales of PoE2, mixed reception towards Tyranny and Torment: Tides of Numenera means that there's something missing in these RTwP "successors". Maybe it's the worldbuilding that relies on padded writing (loredumps and all) or maybe the ability system or itemization that was built from the ground up is not as entertaining. There's enough people on various groups talking about these games lacking whatever je ne sais quoi is missing here that is present in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, or even something like Pathfinder: Kingmaker (which was a game made by some no-name Russians with none of the Obsidian renome and budget, yet it seems to be somewhat comparable in sales or peak Steam players to Deadfire).

    There's a paradox where these games claim to be Baldur's Gate and Torment "spiritual successors" while differentiating themselves from D&D in every possible way, and perhaps D&D with serial numbers filed off isn't as fun as just plain D&D.

    And Div:OS is in a different ballpark due to its turn-based mode, markedly different story presentation and the co-op mode. It also seems to have been the most successful RPG of the Kickstarter renaissance, at least financially.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-06-05 at 03:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Man. I was super excited for Torment: Tides of Whatever. Got it, played the first few minutes, haven’t touched it since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    OTOH, the oddities of 2ed also bring us the multitude of spells (and the various subtleties and intricacies wrapped with them) and likely the game system was bundled with that classic Forgotten Realms world feel that was a massive draw to the game. The way you can sculpt a spellcaster's book in BG to fit not only an interesting mechanical quirk but also have considerable roleplaying considerations is something I think other games of its type didn't necessarily grasp to the same extent, although I think they were still fun to play (No, I'm not trying to exalt the virtues of spells like Goodberries or Infravision, of course, but it's still surprising how many different things really do work in this engine). There's so many items and spells you can mix and match for interesting results.
    Speaking personally, I'm fine with giving it up if it means my non-casting PC doesn't run on autopilot before I cover them in magic items.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Speaking personally, I'm fine with giving it up if it means my non-casting PC doesn't run on autopilot before I cover them in magic items.
    Understood. Mine generally doesn't. I keep a ranged weapon, a reach weapon and a sword'n'board on any martial from BG1 onward and switch between them depending on whether I need to kite or to tank something mano y mano, and the very first magic item I can use as a mere Fighter can be bought at the Nashkel Carnival. And I still have to at least keep my Fighter from auto-walking into line of sight or outside of a chokepoint without being prompted to do so, especially in the early levels where even a Xvart can get lucky and at least put a dent in my resources.

    And non-casting PCs involve Thieves (...well, up to a point), who rely on micro and prep the most to do well.

    Of course there's much less micro involved, but I think Fighters have quite a few options and optimizations if you're inclined to pursue them (which isn't necessary for anyone but the most munchkinny of us).

    There's something to be said about how the simplicity of the regular martial makes your life easier; I'm thankful when games like DA:O compliment their more complex martial movesets with actual working scripts so that I don't have to execute an MMO-style rotation on four different characters.

    But you do have a fair point.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-06-05 at 03:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    It's true that licenses don't really have the same power they used to but they still do have advantages. You have all the lore and backstory there so there's no need to spend development time working on how your world all fits together. In theory that can allow for more time spent developing other aspects of the game, though some of that time is probably wasted on how to convert systems from one medium to another in a way that makes at least some amount of sense.

    There's also the power of familiarity, its a nice comfort for some people. Sure getting new settings to explore can be fun, but sometimes seeing a good old setting you've dug into and know every little detail of can be even more powerful.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
    It's true that licenses don't really have the same power they used to but they still do have advantages. You have all the lore and backstory there so there's no need to spend development time working on how your world all fits together. In theory that can allow for more time spent developing other aspects of the game, though some of that time is probably wasted on how to convert systems from one medium to another in a way that makes at least some amount of sense.

    There's also the power of familiarity, its a nice comfort for some people. Sure getting new settings to explore can be fun, but sometimes seeing a good old setting you've dug into and know every little detail of can be even more powerful.
    That latter thing is a pretty powerful advantage in itself; with a licence you have a pre-existing and built-in fanbase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    A game setting does need to be designed to be fun and functional to game in.

    But there's more to good worldbuilding than piling the "parts to game in" on a big pile.

    Farmland isn't there to be adventured in, primarily, but one assumes it's still there and part of the landscape -- just because adventurers don't go there often doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't or needn't exist.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The biggest thing is that the license just doesn't hold the same power that it used to. Divinity OS, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny...why tie yourself to a tabletop game system that may not be suitable for a videogame when games that aren't doing that are doing perfectly well without the power of the D&D license backing it? I can't help but think even Baldur's Gate would have been more accessible if it wasn't tied to THAC0 and the other oddities of 2ed.
    Didnt the programmers take GREAT liberty with the AD&D system already? I feel BG 3 will become to 5. edition D&D what Knights of the Old Republic was to 3.5

    Some direct pickings, other passages are vaguely inspired at best. Because a computer game suddenly steers away from the "creative use of skill x to solve y" and "use spell a to solve problem b" towards "you can only use acrobatics to overcome obstacles and maybe not provoke AoOs infight because otherwise it would not prompt enough reason to even tag it as proficient.

    Personally I am seeing a return of skill points because bounded accuracy on skills invites for save scumming (unless its always online like dark souls) and many classes have no choices to make past 3rd level. They might even give more, and weaker feats because of that.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate 3...confirmed?

    To the license power subject: while a D&D CRPG might have more able competitors right now compared to back then, I think D&D's recent increase of popularity might very well result in a much higher license power. We didn't have multiple groups of semi-celebrity D&D podcasts or whatever back then, for one.

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