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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Malphegor's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    "Okay, so when you say 'just the core books', what does that actually mean?"

    Our group actually seems to run with 'any book published by Wizards of the Coast themselves that isn't a d20 system offshoot, that said stuff like the Dragon Compendium and the Swords and Sorcery series of books or whatever it was called dealt with on a case by case basis'. Core meaning 'Wotc'. Also with sprinkling of pathfinder especially on the monster side for the DM.

    What I thought 'just the core books' meant on the first session was PHB, DMG, MM1.

    (As someone who rampantly picks and mixes from various books to create a frankenstein build that somehow holds together pretty well, I restricted my last character way more than I needed to in a bid to try to at least resemble a character who's mostly from those 3 books)
    I'm using my signature to bookmark my favourite things I've seen on giantitp, none of them my own creation.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Delta's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Oh, another one I'd like to have known in advance...

    "I don't plan on giving out XP more than every half dozen sessions, hardly any loot or riches, and I'll look at anyone disapprovingly who asks for things like that because only bad powergamers care about stuff like that"

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardwill View Post
    Oh, I have no problem with a DM that asks me what kind of tactics my PC aims for in his argument. I do have a problem if he demands me to make the full speech, and then never asks me to roll the dice (for your analogy, it would be like a DM that demands the exact minutia of swordfighting, including complete description of your steps, hand positions, guards and moves, breathing, and decides based on it if you hit and how much damage you do. Or even asks you to show it live with a wooden sword. That would hugely advantage the player who is doing fencing IRL, wouldn't it?)

    I agree that at a tabletop, speech based game, making your speech feels more natural than re-enacting the way you bend your prison's bars, but hey, maybe a timid player just wants to say "I convince the guard to let us through" and roll a dice, just as the party fighter just says "I hit the dragon with my sword" and hopes for a crit.

    If a player is never expected to roll a stat, just take that stat out of the game, otherwise it becomes a trap. If Charisma is useless, just be honest about it, and I'll put my points in "kill stuff with my sword". Don't trap me into a subsystem that doesn't exist in your games (like starship piloting if your entire campaign is planet-based)
    Hmmm… thank you for pointing out how I should make sure that players become clear on what I'm doing.

    So, just to check: suppose you ran a character under me, and found that I make you play it out. In one social situation (unbeknownst to you), if you mention "Gandalf", the NPC will reject your offer; if you don't, but name-drop any other nobility, they'll accept; otherwise, it's a diplomacy roll. Further, if you mention the elves, they'll give you extra information that may be useful.

    How would you feel about this kind of scenario, where, if you research the target (they hate Gandalf, they something power), you can know what tools to leverage; otherwise, there are seemingly "random" good paths / land mines, with the default being a roll?

    Just like throwing a fireball at a red dragon isn't as effective as a lightning bolt, what you know about the target changes how effective your tactics can be - and you have to pick blind if you lack the knowledge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    The DM determines the scenario. It's not hard to write a PC out of a scenario entirely just by playing constantly to their weaknesses.

    How might you feel if a wizard you were playing discovers themselves in an entire campaign in a magical location that has a permanent anti magic field effect of god level strength? The DM has surgically removed the minigame your character skills rely on. It's not that much different than putting a pilot in a footpath exclusive dungeon where they'll never see a vehicle, much less use their pilot skills.

    Why is the impetus on the DM? The impetus is evenly shared between all participants. If the DM plans a game where pilots are useless, they should say so before the game (hence, the subject of the thread). If the DM has no plans (as I suspect you are advocating a more sandbox style of game), then the pilot PC could go attain a vehicle for their more constant use, but then we have nothing the DM needed to warn the players about before the game and we find ourselves outside of the scope of the thread.

    Ergo, if a game is TRULY sandbox, there should be very few things the DM needs to tell players before the start of the game.

    The whole subject of our conversation is rather naturally constrained to DM limitations that should really be made clear at session 0. The fact that it isn't a sandbox is certainly something that should come up, if it's true.
    Hmmm… you're a rebel pilot, this is a political sandbox. Your pilot skills aren't likely to come up much, but your pilot status may. What onus is upon whom in this scenario?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I wish one DM had told me, "Your character may someday become a noble, complete with a castle and lands around it."

    He did this to my 2e Thief. How do you use your Thief skills when you own everything for 20 miles in all directions?
    Hold my beer.

    So, you could Hide and Move Silently towards the Bath House. Then Open Lock and Find / Remove Traps as needed. Perhaps Pick Pockets to remove articles of clothing (hardly seems necessary), or to move items around between individuals. Hear Noise to make sure no-one has noticed you; Climb Walls to make good on your escape if they do. Read Languages… I guess if you sneak a peak at a message in a courier's bag?

    Just make bathing required for anyone who wishes to meet with you, and *bang*, you've got a use for all your skills.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Delta's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Hmmm… you're a rebel pilot, this is a political sandbox. Your pilot skills aren't likely to come up much, but your pilot status may. What onus is upon whom in this scenario?
    The GM should tell the player exactly that in advance.

    Hmmm… you're a rebel pilot, this is a political sandbox. Your pilot skills aren't likely to come up much, but your pilot status may.
    Then the player can decide for themselves what to do, if they still want to play the pilot for the status, maybe keep the general background, but use a few points that would've usually gone into space combat relevant skills to beef up other stats instead.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    I just realized a big one:

    Are my stats restrictive of my character's capabilities?

    If The Player is smart, can The Character do smart things? Some would say "yes", that they would not want the actions of the player to be limited by the character's capabilities, however:
    If The Player is strong, can The Character do strong things?
    Or are the mental capabilities of the player the only thing that can bridge the gap between player and character?

    It's a tough question to answer, and one that inevitably comes up partway through the campaign.

    "I said I looked up, it doesn't matter if I have a -5 in Perception".
    "Sorry, Grog, you're too dumb to even know basic math. Yes, we all know that the answer is '4'".
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-04 at 11:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Hmmm… you're a rebel pilot, this is a political sandbox. Your pilot skills aren't likely to come up much, but your pilot status may. What onus is upon whom in this scenario?
    Assuming this is information given at session 0, after I've proposed playing a pilot and before I've made the character, onus is on me as the player to abide by the DM's constraints. If I continue to make the character, I do so with the knowledge of the type of game that will likely result in.

    However, if I were asked first to make the character and so I've already done the work of fabricating the statistics, and *then* I am told the above information, I might feel a bit cheated. I was asked to make a legal character and after doing so, was suddenly provided relevant information that might have changed my build choices. Why should I have to redo my work to accomodate the DM when it was their responsibility to inform my decisions?

    Hence the subject at hand: things you wish your DM had told you beforehand.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    FaerieGodfather's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Herabec View Post
    I was then arrested and lost the rest of my downtime and got to sit around doing nothing for two hours. Yay. Last time I play a thievery-focused rogue instead of a stabby kill-all-your-NPCs rogue... >_> *still salty*
    Man, that would have been the last time I played any goddamned character at his table. I've got some words to describe my strong negative opinion of his playstyle and his moral character, and more than half of them would get me banned here. Hell, some of them would get me excommunicated.
    "Love is at the heart of everything: all learning, all relationships. Love, or the lack of it." - Fred Rogers

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jay R's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Taxation?
    Doesn't use Thief skills. No stealth, no pickpocketing, no open lock. That comes to me by using the law, not by violating it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Take long rides along the borders?
    Even if I were willing to steal from the neighboring nobles, picking pockets is best done without a retinue of heralds, servants, and guards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardwill View Post
    That puts a new meaning to "robber baron" ^^
    Yes, indeed. But it's a meaning that does not use Thief skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardwill View Post
    You didn't even have some nice, shiny temple or merchant guild to "stealth-tax"?
    Why use a "stealth-tax" on people whose above-board taxes already get paid to me?

    You are both correct that there are ways to take advantage of it, and I built up quite a successful fiefdom.

    But using a Thief to accomplish that role is the equivalent of using a Fighter to arrange classes for the needle-work guild's annual convention. It can be done, but you aren't using the build.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    But using a Thief to accomplish that role is the equivalent of using a Fighter to arrange classes for the needle-work guild's annual convention. It can be done, but you aren't using the build.
    Well I guess this all depends on if you prefer the RP or the building.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Well I guess this all depends on if you prefer the RP or the building.
    Why can't it be both?

    You like the mechanics of the game and want to use them, but also enjoy roleplaying.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  11. - Top - End - #71
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Why can't it be both?

    You like the mechanics of the game and want to use them, but also enjoy roleplaying.
    And I've already given a way to use the mechanics. It's not that hard to find creative ways to utilize your skills, is it?

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jay R's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Well I guess this all depends on if you prefer the RP or the building.
    I much prefer the RP. This character was a quiet, alienated outcast orphan, who had been fading into the background whenever the party dealt with outsiders. Then suddenly he was put in the middle of diplomacy, politics, and wide-ranging social situations.

    I think I did a good job at it, farming out my mines to a homeless dwarf king who owned no land. He got the underground kingdom, and I got 2/3 of the metals.

    I started a military college, training the first professional army on that world. I also started a Swiss-like militia; I armed all my peasants with swords, if they agreed to come for training once a year

    I developed a co-operative crafts village, giving skilled crafts folk a good place to live.

    I tried to present all this as what he did out of necessity, and as character growth.

    But it wasn’t really the outcast orphan I had decided to play.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    But it wasn’t really the outcast orphan I had decided to play.
    But could the GM have known that at the start of the campaign? It sounds a bit unfair to expect the GM to know how the dynamics of the game will make it turn out.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    But could the GM have known that at the start of the campaign? It sounds a bit unfair to expect the GM to know how the dynamics of the game will make it turn out.
    A. As I understand it, yes, he knew from first level that we were in position to save the lost Crown prince eventually, bring him back to the main continent, and be rewarded. He had the politics for such an occurrence already worked out.

    B. He had a four-page description of my outcast loner orphan.

    C. I'm not upset with him; it was a great game. But I still wish I'd known that my character might someday have to get involved in diplomacy when dumping charisma and developing him as the guy who would "go stand guard" whenever we were talking to anybody outside the party.

    I really enjoyed the character, and his disdain for most societal structure. In an discussion about what the party should do, he once said, "Yes, well, that's because you're a paladin, sworn to do what's Lawful, and what's Good. I'm just a thief, free to do what's right."

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Not before the game start, but... "I'm going to ask you to swap out your mage for a werewolf from here on out; the session one characters were too similar. Now, even though I'm asking you to do this, I'm never going to add opportunities for you to earn Renown, so your magic gifts and rites will be forever locked at level one. Oh, you're making a theurge and focusing on rites? Cool. I'll encourage it, because I'm laughing at you on the inside."

    "Using your ability to step into the spirit world will NEVER be the solution to any problem or a way to bypass ANY obstacle."

    "Don't worry about what you do; your character's just here to watch my real friend's character star in big scenes."

    "Don't think too much about your choices; I would never accept the shame of a PC surviving a game I run."

    "I encourage PvP at my table."

    "Be extra careful if only a couple of players show up; I do not adjust combat encounters just because less than half the group is here."

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Arkon View Post
    Not before the game start, but... "I'm going to ask you to swap out your mage for a werewolf from here on out; the session one characters were too similar. Now, even though I'm asking you to do this, I'm never going to add opportunities for you to earn Renown, so your magic gifts and rites will be forever locked at level one. Oh, you're making a theurge and focusing on rites? Cool. I'll encourage it, because I'm laughing at you on the inside."

    "Using your ability to step into the spirit world will NEVER be the solution to any problem or a way to bypass ANY obstacle."

    "Don't worry about what you do; your character's just here to watch my real friend's character star in big scenes."

    "Don't think too much about your choices; I would never accept the shame of a PC surviving a game I run."

    "I encourage PvP at my table."

    "Be extra careful if only a couple of players show up; I do not adjust combat encounters just because less than half the group is here."
    Either you're over exaggerating, or you've had a lot of terrible experiences. Sorry, man, that's rough.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    I'm not certain how much is exaggeration, and how much is just memory poisoning certain games in my mind. I'm certain all of them except "Don't think too much about your choices; I would never accept the shame of a PC surviving a game I run." were ultimately mistakes by well-meaning people, but ones I do not wish to play under again.

    But the one about never let a PC survive is more likely that my brother is just a jerk (which I know to be true) who wanted to get rid of his baby brother as fast as possible. I haven't played an RPG with him in 35 years anyway.

    These were built up over a long time.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    That they
    A) Refused to use MM guidelines when building Homebrew monsters (while only using Homebrew monsters)
    B) Don't it badly (yes, those 4 creatures all have AC 35+ at level 6, why do you ask?)
    C) "Freely adjust" saves and hp of their monsters in combat so things are "sufficiently cinematic"

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus View Post
    That they
    A) Refused to use MM guidelines when building Homebrew monsters (while only using Homebrew monsters)
    B) Don't it badly (yes, those 4 creatures all have AC 35+ at level 6, why do you ask?)
    C) "Freely adjust" saves and hp of their monsters in combat so things are "sufficiently cinematic"
    maybe his standard for cinematic is horror ghost movies?
    Last edited by noob; 2019-06-08 at 05:18 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Arkon View Post
    I'm not certain how much is exaggeration, and how much is just memory poisoning certain games in my mind. I'm certain all of them except "Don't think too much about your choices; I would never accept the shame of a PC surviving a game I run." were ultimately mistakes by well-meaning people, but ones I do not wish to play under again.

    But the one about never let a PC survive is more likely that my brother is just a jerk (which I know to be true) who wanted to get rid of his baby brother as fast as possible. I haven't played an RPG with him in 35 years anyway.

    These were built up over a long time.
    I got you covered. I've had those DMs way back when in my 2E days for mostly the same things.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Arkon View Post
    But the one about never let a PC survive is more likely that my brother is just a jerk (which I know to be true) who wanted to get rid of his baby brother as fast as possible. I haven't played an RPG with him in 35 years anyway.
    High Five! Another member of the 'Can't game with family' club!

    As for the thief dilemma, why were you not breaking into people's houses to keep an eye on them? I mean, yes, they were YOUR people, but a demon cult has to start somewhere, let it go start in some other person's backyard. It would also inform you about any potential rebellion, as well as tax dodgers.

    If you were really good, you could use your skills to slowly convince them to join a particular religion that benefits you. Little 'miracles' or 'blessings' to nudge people in the right direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    High Five! Another member of the 'Can't game with family' club!
    High five! Yeah, family or not, don't game with someone who wants a radically different play-style than you do. Also, thanks for the support Pex and Man_Over_Game.

    Actually here's a good one for the topic:

    "Okay players listen up, this is the sort of game I want to run, and what I, personally, want from the game..."

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Players, what are things you wish your GM had told you before game start?

    But that would actually MAKE SENSE!

    Meanwhile, the feeling I get from my current tabletop GM...

    "So yeah, I don't wanna make anyone feel bad by actually enforcing consequences for your fellow PCs' actions against you so Wacky Boi can keep annoying you and no-selling the fact that he's going too far with his antics both IC and OOC. Also, Wacky Boi is gonna level up at the same rate as you guys are even when he misses several sessions in a row, posting at the very last second he can't come and you guys are doing all the hard work and suffering all the HP damage while he's MIA, brainwashing bears to his tasteless fake god. But TRUST ME! It'll all work out..."

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