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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    I dislike stat dumping, but I also dislike point buy, not rolling your stats in order, and non-oracular ways of character creation.

    To me, the point of character creation is not to be fair. It's to create a character, complete with flaws and ideals. This extends to their physical attributes.
    You roll for class too? What about feat selection?
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    I dislike stat dumping, but I also dislike point buy, not rolling your stats in order, and non-oracular ways of character creation.

    To me, the point of character creation is not to be fair. It's to create a character, complete with flaws and ideals. This extends to their physical attributes.
    You're also trying to create an Adventurer so if your attributes aren't at least heroic in one aspect you've failed to do that.

    The way I see it, rolling stats in order is only a way to somewhat randomize your party composition, people are going to pick a class to suit what they rolled and if they've rolled below average in a certain stat they're going to create a character that dumps it.

    Someone could roll 8/10/12/10/16/12 in order and decide "well I've pretty much got to play a Cleric or Druid with this". All you've done having them roll in order is eliminate the opportunity for them to choose from the other 10 classes without sacrificing their ability to be heroic. That 8 has to go somewhere, all you've done is decide for them where it goes.

    I guess I don't understand the complaint then, what makes you dislike the players being given the opportunity to dump a stat as opposed to a low stat being forced upon them?
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2019-06-03 at 03:10 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Knaight's Avatar

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    Default Re: Discourage stat dumping

    It also probably shouldn't be the idea for all classes. If you look at how you'd design the archetypes covered for those classes absent a class system but with the same 6 attributes you'd generally see patterns of high and low stats. If asked to make an academic wizard with the 6 attributes and some powers you'd grab a few familiar spells, crank up intelligence, and probably not have the best charisma or physical stats. If asked to make a warrior familiar with nature you'd probably have decent physical stats along with wisdom, mostly because perception is bundled with it, where intelligence and charisma are likely to fall by the wayside. If asked to make a sneaky, silver tongued thief you'd crank dex and cha up to high levels, with the rest still decent and not a lot of dump stats.

    Similarly, were attributes dropped entirely on the basis of classes covering similar stuff you'd pick the wizard, either the ranger or barbarian, and the rogue for those same characters. Looking at those two lists they mostly line up well, with a few odd points - wizards not having use for wisdom is weird, constitution being generally critical for everyone is a whole thing that doesn't fit most characters (it's great for basically any archetype you're pulling the barbarian out for), there's various miscellany around it, but you still concepts represented with particular high and low stats and particular classes. Take the concept out and just look at the mechanics and out comes the idea of dump stats. That's fine.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaun7 View Post
    You roll for class too? What about feat selection?
    When playing point buy, I absolutely roll for both class and background. When rolling stats, I personally still roll for background, as I don't believe your character gets to choose what they were born into.

    I do not roll for class as the class represents what a character chooses to do after their apprenticeship years. As for feats, they're an optional rule that I may or may not even take. It depends on what my character does in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    You're also trying to create an Adventurer so if your attributes aren't at least heroic in one aspect you've failed to do that.

    The way I see it, rolling stats in order is only a way to somewhat randomize your party composition, people are going to pick a class to suit what they rolled and if they've rolled below average in a certain stat they're going to create a character that dumps it.

    Someone could roll 8/10/12/10/16/12 in order and decide "well I've pretty much got to play a Cleric or Druid with this". All you've done having them roll in order is eliminate the opportunity for them to choose from the other 10 classes without sacrificing their ability to be heroic. That 8 has to go somewhere, all you've done is decide for them where it goes.

    I guess I don't understand the complaint then, what makes you dislike the players being given the opportunity to dump a stat as opposed to a low stat being forced upon them?
    Even in your example, there is still a mechanical choice to be made between two classes. Next time you make a character, maybe you'll roll differently!

    That said.... I won't force you guys to play this way. I get that modern gaming standards assume a certain level of parity and equity in their games. I'm simply saying I don't understand the obsession, and prefer a more holistic approach to character generation as opposed to the increasingly gamified approach highlighted in 5e.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    Even in your example, there is still a mechanical choice to be made between two classes. Next time you make a character, maybe you'll roll differently!

    That said.... I won't force you guys to play this way. I get that modern gaming standards assume a certain level of parity and equity in their games. I'm simply saying I don't understand the obsession, and prefer a more holistic approach to character generation as opposed to the increasingly gamified approach highlighted in 5e.
    But what if next time I roll the same, or similar enough to limit my choices in the same way? what if I had an idea for a Rogue that I wanted to play and now it was almost certainly impossible? What if I was more interested in one of the 10 remaining classes? Is it not better to roll stats and have a choice between 12 distinct classes, rather than a limited amount?

    I don't understand how you could see rolling in order as any degree less gamified. It's only changing the order of character creation from "Roll stats, pick class, distribute stats" to "Roll stats, find class that fits"

    That seems more to me like getting pushed into a certain archetype rather than having the freedom to explore whichever one you'd like. I suppose we'll have to disagree on this, I don't see rolling stats straight down as anything but a restriction on the player. It could be fun a few times and is almost certainly a better way to introduce a new player (less options are generally better for learning) but I wouldn't push that on people once they've found their footing and might want to try branching out.

    I still don't understand the complaint. Why is it so much worse to roll stats and allow the player to distribute them by choice? The ability scores will be identical, except in a different order and most players are still going to pick a class that suits those numbers, meaning that in effect the lower rolls have been dumped forcibly rather than by choice.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Wizard_Lizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Like the gnomewizard I dmed for who had 3STR
    Current characters:
    Drakirr (Blue Dragonborn Warlock)
    Alyfyldyr Hyalythki (Rock Gnome Wizard)
    Harilidir (Hald-elf Bard)
    Kazaharad Akaztkl (Goliath Barbarian)
    Luft (air-genasi druid)
    And of course Lizard Wizard (Lizardfolk Sorcerer)

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    But what if next time I roll the same, or similar enough to limit my choices in the same way? what if I had an idea for a Rogue that I wanted to play and now it was almost certainly impossible? What if I was more interested in one of the 10 remaining classes? Is it not better to roll stats and have a choice between 12 distinct classes, rather than a limited amount?

    I don't understand how you could see rolling in order as any degree less gamified. It's only changing the order of character creation from "Roll stats, pick class, distribute stats" to "Roll stats, find class that fits"

    That seems more to me like getting pushed into a certain archetype rather than having the freedom to explore whichever one you'd like. I suppose we'll have to disagree on this, I don't see rolling stats straight down as anything but a restriction on the player. It could be fun a few times and is almost certainly a better way to introduce a new player (less options are generally better for learning) but I wouldn't push that on people once they've found their footing and might want to try branching out.

    I still don't understand the complaint. Why is it so much worse to roll stats and allow the player to distribute them by choice? The ability scores will be identical, except in a different order and most players are still going to pick a class that suits those numbers, meaning that in effect the lower rolls have been dumped forcibly rather than by choice.
    Find a different game or talk to the DM. Most DM's are more than willing to work with their players. Maybe implement a 1e/OD&D method of stat trading (i.e. trading 2 points for 1 point in a prime requisite to a certain point).

    However, no answer I give is ever going to be adequate for you. And that's fine. We're talking about what's fun, and my idea of fun is significantly different from yours.

    Now get off my lawn ya [REDACTED] hoodlum.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    I'd actually love to see players making characters with diverse stats.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Wizard_Lizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    I have it that the pcs stat numbers add up to 75.
    Current characters:
    Drakirr (Blue Dragonborn Warlock)
    Alyfyldyr Hyalythki (Rock Gnome Wizard)
    Harilidir (Hald-elf Bard)
    Kazaharad Akaztkl (Goliath Barbarian)
    Luft (air-genasi druid)
    And of course Lizard Wizard (Lizardfolk Sorcerer)

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    Find a different game or talk to the DM. Most DM's are more than willing to work with their players. Maybe implement a 1e/OD&D method of stat trading (i.e. trading 2 points for 1 point in a prime requisite to a certain point).

    However, no answer I give is ever going to be adequate for you. And that's fine. We're talking about what's fun, and my idea of fun is significantly different from yours.

    Now get off my lawn ya [REDACTED] hoodlum.
    I'm not saying it's wrong or that you're not allowed to prefer it this way, I'm just confused how it's different enough that you would dislike intentional stat dumping but advocate for forced stat dumping.

    How about if I phrase it this way: Why do you dislike the idea that a player would dump their Str score since the class they want to play doesn't make a lot of use of it, but you prefer a system of ability score generation where a player wants to play a Barbarian or Wizard (the only classes that undeniably need a high primary stat) can have that option taken away from them if they roll low in that stat. Why implement complicated point trading systems to just barely avoid letting them choose their stats flat out?

    I don't see a difference between choosing to dump a stat and having a stat end up dumped in order. I could understand your point of view better if you could explain the difference as you see it. I would be satisfied with an explanation on the difference between rolling an 8 and choosing to place it in Str vs Rolling an 8 and having it put into Str for you.

    The end result is that you have a character created that has strengths where they should be and weaknesses where they can afford it. Does the method to reach that result really make such a difference?
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2019-06-03 at 05:28 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    I'm not saying it's wrong or that you're not allowed to prefer it this way, I'm just confused how it's different enough that you would dislike intentional stat dumping but advocate for forced stat dumping.

    How about if I phrase it this way: Why do you dislike the idea that a player would dump their Str score since the class they want to play doesn't make a lot of use of it, but you prefer a system of ability score generation where a player wants to play a Barbarian or Wizard (the only classes that undeniably need a high primary stat) can have that option taken away from them if they roll low in that stat. Why implement complicated point trading systems to just barely avoid letting them choose their stats flat out?

    I don't see a difference between choosing to dump a stat and having a stat end up dumped in order. I could understand your point of view better if you could explain the difference as you see it. I would be satisfied with an explanation on the difference between rolling an 8 and choosing to place it in Str vs Rolling an 8 and having it put into Str for you.
    Well, it harkens back to my original phrase, "oracular process." Your character is born a certain way and shaped by the fates in some way. You're less building the character than discovering them.

    I'm not against the low stats, mind. I'm against the idea of the predetermined hierarchy of stats as dictated by the optimal method of play for a given class. By allowing players that option to choose their stat lines, it really opens the door for that line of thinking, which to my mind is kinda besides the point. The character then is less than the sum of its parts.

    It's also worth noting that I don't believe all adventurers need heroic stats, mind. Bilbo Baggins started as a halfling commoner, after all. It only really gets murky when you start applying game math to the stats.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    I think the two threads are talking past each other. You should encourage stat-dumping, which is exactly why you need to make all of the stats matter. As it is now, with Int or Str not mattering at all for certain characters, if you put your lowest score in those stats, you haven't dumped anything. A penalty that never comes up isn't a penalty.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    Well, it harkens back to my original phrase, "oracular process." Your character is born a certain way and shaped by the fates in some way. You're less building the character than discovering them.

    I'm not against the low stats, mind. I'm against the idea of the predetermined hierarchy of stats as dictated by the optimal method of play for a given class. By allowing players that option to choose their stat lines, it really opens the door for that line of thinking, which to my mind is kinda besides the point. The character then is less than the sum of its parts.

    It's also worth noting that I don't believe all adventurers need heroic stats, mind. Bilbo Baggins started as a halfling commoner, after all. It only really gets murky when you start applying game math to the stats.
    Bilbo Baggins had one of the most powerful wizards in the land on his side, as well as a small army of skilled fighters with him. Given the circumstances, he started off as more of a sidekick than a main character and could afford to be average, he was a hireling. Throughout his adventure in The Hobbit he was, in effect, able to gain enough experience to develop into his own. You're right though, calling it heroic might have been an exaggeration. At the very least, to be a successful adventurer in 5E you're likely to be well above the common rabble in at least one aspect, it's fair to say that Bilbo Baggins was at least a bit above average.

    As for the character discovery process, I suppose I can understand that. I don't exactly relate though, I've got enough character ideas swimming around in my head that all I'd accomplish by rolling them in order is which of the characters I've already been working on will have the pleasure of seeing a real game. I don't need the stats put out in front of me to develop a character, I've got them developed already and then I find a stat distribution that works.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Asmotherion's Avatar

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Depends on what you consider discouraging; is it discouraging to target your dump stat with a save every so often or does it imply smart npcs who can adapt to their opponent's weaknesses?

    Spec
    ifically targeting a player to punish optimisation is childish... Having a player not feel invulnerable in a campain is realism. There is a thin line between them and as long as you don't cross it you're cool.

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    Considering there is already an active thread around 'discouraging stat dumping', perhaps this would be better served to be posted in there as part of the ongoing conversation rather than starting a whole new thread.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-stat-dumping
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    The purpose of that thread is to come up with ways to encourage players not to stat dump. Stapling this thesis onto that thread is the equivalent of saying 'don't play wisdom-based rangers, play single-classed nature clerics' on a thread that's coming up with ways to squeeze the most utility out of wisdom-based rangers.
    If that is the case, I would suggest editing the original post. As it stands, it makes it look like the purpose of this thread is axe-grinding over the existence of the thread Zhorn mentions.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Bilbo Baggins had one of the most powerful wizards in the land on his side, as well as a small army of skilled fighters with him. Given the circumstances, he started off as more of a sidekick than a main character and could afford to be average, he was a hireling. Throughout his adventure in The Hobbit he was, in effect, able to gain enough experience to develop into his own. You're right though, calling it heroic might have been an exaggeration. At the very least, to be a successful adventurer in 5E you're likely to be well above the common rabble in at least one aspect, it's fair to say that Bilbo Baggins was at least a bit above average.

    As for the character discovery process, I suppose I can understand that. I don't exactly relate though, I've got enough character ideas swimming around in my head that all I'd accomplish by rolling them in order is which of the characters I've already been working on will have the pleasure of seeing a real game. I don't need the stats put out in front of me to develop a character, I've got them developed already and then I find a stat distribution that works.
    That's great! I have those same multitudes of character ideas bouncing around in my heads. However, a big problem I have is figuring out which one I want to play. So, rather than building the character even though it might not be your one that would be most fun, I instead let the dice decide.

    Let's go through an example by me actually rolling some dice and making a character. I use 4d6b3 to determine my stats.

    Stats are:
    Str: 8
    Dex: 13
    Con: 13
    Int: 15
    Wis: 12
    Cha: 11

    I know you wouldn't believe me, but I actually rolled those stats.

    Okay, now looking at these stats, I'm thinking that I really wanna run my Beguiler character concept: a Wizard mind mage spy that's constantly manipulating everyone's perceptions of the world around him. He's a run off the mill Human (not variant!), but still extremely skilled.

    See how that works? I rolled my stats, and then I know which character concept I want to use based on that.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    MY STATS OFF THE ELITE ARRAY:
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Putting aside that an 8 isn't that bad - yes, absolutely. Sometimes playing a deeply, deeply stupid character is a lot of fun.
    Indeed. IMO it's not as fun as playing a foolish or insulting character, but still a lot of fun.

    -------

    Not directed at Knaight, but jumping off his wording, let's not put aside that an 8 isn't that bad for a second. That an 8 in an attribute is considered bad is an indicator of attribute bloat.

    Even with that value and no proficiency, when the metal hits the meat you can still succeed on a 'worst' ability check DC 10 check 50% of the time. That's risky yes, but sometimes you have to take risks. When it becomes a problem is if your DM is one of those that thinks DCs should default to high values, regularly calling for DC 15+ checks. And if you have that kind of DM you're all screwed anyway, and nobody wants to ever roll the dice unless it's their primary score and they're proficient, and even then it's a 50/50 shot at low levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    The only way to discourage stat dumping is to make sure all classes have uses for all stats, and then to force them to roll stats in order.
    Rolling in order would discourage stat dumping by itself. So would using standard array, choosing your class, assigning high attribute to the primary stat, and then randomly determining where remaining stats went. You'd still have one 8 score, but it'd be randomly dumped.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by D+1 View Post
    The way to discourage stat-dumping is for all classes to have viable uses for having good stats in any given ability. So, even if a fighter doesn't need, say, high wisdom or intelligence for anything if you find a use for a fighter to want a higher wisdom or intelligence then it isn't a dump stat.
    If you make every ability score absolutely crucial and needs taken care of then the character becomes mediocre at everything and good at nothing. It's not anyone's job to discourage anything. Let the player create the character he wants to play not what you want him to play.

    Colloquial you, not D+1 specifically.
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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Bilbo Baggins had one of the most powerful wizards in the land on his side, as well as a small army of skilled fighters with him. Given the circumstances, he started off as more of a sidekick than a main character and could afford to be average, he was a hireling. Throughout his adventure in The Hobbit he was, in effect, able to gain enough experience to develop into his own. You're right though, calling it heroic might have been an exaggeration. At the very least, to be a successful adventurer in 5E you're likely to be well above the common rabble in at least one aspect, it's fair to say that Bilbo Baggins was at least a bit above average.
    Spoiler: Off topic
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    Small army of skilled fighters? I thought the dwarves were a small band of upper-middle-class tradesmen. Did they even do any fighting in the Hobbit? All I remember is them getting mugged by the trolls, running away from the goblins, getting rescued by Beorn, and posturing in armor against the armies of elves and men before the goblin armies showed up.


    In any case GreyBlack's suggestion stands: there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing the halfling burglar and riddler, even if everyone else is a combat monster, unless your table's social contract is oriented around combat teamwork.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-06-03 at 01:06 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    I always like when characters have a low mental score or two. It helps build personality.
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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    I always like when characters have a low mental score or two. It helps build personality.
    I like low scores and high scores. I dislike characters with all average scores. I'd much rather play an Int 9, Wis 7, Cha 4 Necromancer than an Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10 Necromancer.
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    Default Re: Don't discourage stat dumping

    The default array has a stat of 8, IIRC. Thus the default rules seems to have the iconics all having a dump stat.

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Discourage stat dumping

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    If you want to play a smart character, bump those mental stats up. The stats mean something, they're not just "how do I make my spells harder to resist" and whatnot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The best way to discourage stat dumping in 5e is to make more than 3 stats relevant.

    The game has a huge issue with its design where most stats don't matter. Everybody needs Con, because HP and Con saves are important/common. Most people need Wis, since Perception is still one of the God Skills and Wis saves are important/common.
    I think the underlying premise is spot on (stats mean things, and differentially, so of course people will game them differentially). However, I propose a different possible solution: make stats mean less. There were a lot more fighters (non-MU multi- or dual-class) with 9-14 Int scores in AD&D when anything less than ~15 wasn't going to affect how good you were at cleaning out dungeon (and thus no incentive to keep those scores over in Str, Dex and Con). If one were to have stats do less of the mechanical heavy lifting, there would be less dumping. Even moreso with pre-supplement I oD&D, where 3 of 6 stats only* contributed to an experience bonus for 1 specific class.
    *plus a language boost for high int

    As a (totally un-playtested, and definitely first draft) idea, let's apply that to 5e. Just give every character a 16 or 18 'prime stat' (weapon to-hit/damage determiner, spell DC and number memorized determiner, etc.), a 14 or 16 'Con' (for determining hit points), and 12 or 14 to all the stats for save determination. Now rolls stats normally, but they only count for attribute checks, skills, and character flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just like real life! IQ 200 is about as smart as anyone ever gets. "Only" twice as smart is very, very smart, von Neumann territory.
    But the relative gap between a normal person and a vegetable (10x?) is far more noticeable than the gap between a normal person and von Neumann (2x).
    This sounds familiar. Did you once blog about this? I only followed your blog for about a month after you referenced it in a post, but I recall a discussion on von Neumann's relative intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by sophontteks View Post
    Has anyone even considered what wisdom means in this? The words are synonyms.
    Even if I'm not wholly convinced by the 'D&D Int actually means education' argument, I think the idea that D&D Wisdom ne IRL Wisdom almost has to be assumed. The odd 'willpower plus perception plus other odds and ends that cleric types would be good at' was never a good catchall. Much more than Intelligence, where we at most have arguments on how to model a very bright, no-education character.

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    Default Re: Discourage stat dumping

    Playing characters with no weaknesses is boring. I'll continue to put that 8 from the Standard Array in an area I want to be weak in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    This sounds familiar. Did you once blog about this? I only followed your blog for about a month after you referenced it in a post, but I recall a discussion on von Neumann's relative intelligence.
    I may have quoted something funny Greg Cochran said about von Neumann: https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/...-of-emulation/

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Cochran
    By definition, most people are not in the top 1% of intellect, so books aimed primarily at that top 1% are never going to be best sellers. The question arises, what is the most effective strategy for developing a best seller? Thinking of Dan Brown and Malcolm Gladwell, it looks as if simply being a person of modest intellect may be an effective strategy for writers. Im not saying that it is the only possible strategy, but it may be easier if one never thinks of anything too complicated in the first place, rather than having to weigh the level of difficulty of every sentence and concept. Probably one would have to be a lot smarter than average to effortlessly simulate normality, particularly in real time. It is said that John von Neumann could do this. In much the same way, emulating an obsolete computer is fairly easy for machines that are a decade more advanced.
    I don't think he's saying that von Neumann actually did this, I assume this is just a hyperbolic joke based on von Neumann's "smarter than Einstein" reputation (among those who knew both Einstein and von Neumann) about how hard real-time emulation actually is.
    June 17, 2019: No longer on GITP due to frustrations with forum technology and culture. Find me on Reddit as hemlockR.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    This line of thinking implies that a lobotomized vegetable with Int 1 isn't really very stupid at all, since they're "only 25% worse" than a regular person at passing Int skill checks. I don't agree with that perspective.
    If a fruit or a lizard or a cat, etc, are 25% worse at say, a history check, compared to a human (commoner or adventurer), then yeah, this is unreasonable. But it is not unreasonable because of the comparison, but because the lizard might have a chance to succeed in the check. I do think that it's easier to solve this by having the DM decide when to call for checks (as some other people mentioned I think). The other solution I can think of is abandoning the d20 system for something with less variance where the lizard/cat/vegetable would have no chance to succeed on the check (if you want to solve it with less or no DM interference).

    Checks aside, saying that the hypothetical 2 INT lizard is not all that dumber than the average 10 INT humanoid, may not an indefensible position (you weren't explicitly saying that it is), especially once we take into account that we are talking a fantasy setting where there could be deities with an INT of 100 or sth. Here is a bizarre but entertaining take on it: Human Intelligence vs Alien Intelligence - Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-06-03 at 02:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

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    Default Re: Discourage stat dumping

    Remember that Strength scales and every point placed into it grants more carrying capacity than the last until you reach the soft cap on scaling (where it's identical gains from then on). Intelligence may do the same. So that 45 intelligence diety isn't merely twice as smart as your party's wizard.
    Last edited by Kyutaru; 2019-06-03 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    Remember that Strength scales and every point placed into it grants more carrying capacity than the last until you reach the soft cap on scaling (where it's identical gains from then on). Intelligence may do the same. So that 45 intelligence diety isn't merely twice as smart as your party's wizard.
    To what does this refer? Carrying capacity is linear in Strength: Str x 15 lb., or twice that for dragging/pushing/etc.
    June 17, 2019: No longer on GITP due to frustrations with forum technology and culture. Find me on Reddit as hemlockR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    To what does this refer? Carrying capacity is linear in Strength: Str x 15 lb., or twice that for dragging/pushing/etc.
    And like giving animals an Int of 2, Str suffers once you start applying a "human" 3-18 (or 8-20) to non-medium and non-humanoids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    And like giving animals an Int of 2, Str suffers once you start applying a "human" 3-18 (or 8-20) to non-medium and non-humanoids.
    Absolutely. There's a reason why GURPS: GULLIVER treats Strength quite differently from all of the other attributes. Being "20x as dextrous" or "100x as smart" as a normal human is gibberish--we don't even know what that means. But we know exactly what being 100x or 1000x Strength means: it just means you can apply 100x or 1000x as much force.

    I dislike the way 5E caps attributes at 30, but I can live with it for all of the attributes except Strength. I don't even think grappling should be an opposed d20 ability check, because that method doesn't scale.
    June 17, 2019: No longer on GITP due to frustrations with forum technology and culture. Find me on Reddit as hemlockR.

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