Ready out of combat

[Aussiehams]

G'day all.

Last week my group disinterested when the DM and another player had an argument.

We couldn't find any simple RAW and it spiraled.

Basicly we found some bodies that looked really suss in a dungeon. They didn't ping for undead or anything, but my PC was nervous and said he was ready to hit the corpse if it moved.

Combat hadn't started so their was no initiative order etc. yet.
When another PC tried to loot the corpse it animated.

That's when it gets confusing.

Should it be:
1. I swing with advantage (prone), then everyone rolls initiative,
2. Roll initiative, use my reaction as a normal ready action.
3. I swing at the top of the initiative and then it progresses as normal.

Any opinions?

[Tanarii]

None of the above. Everyone rolls initiative. Act in turn order as usual.

If your DM feels it's appropriate she could give the prepared character(s) advantage on their initiative check. Or enemies disadvantage. Or both.

The DM could also determine this counts as surprise for the PC party, with some of the enemies surprised. Without the normal stealth check.

Those are all options using RAW. Although the DM granting advantage / disadvantage on any check they feel it's appropriate is buried in the DMG. And the surprise thing requires a specific interpretation of the surprise rules.

[Mellack]

You roll initiative and go in turn order. Ready lets you go out of turn order, but since there was no order at that point it has no effect. If I were DM I would probably give the character advantage on the initiative roll.

[Puh Laden]

I agree with Tanarii's post generally. If I wanted to do anything special with it, I would probably say that everyone who didn't make a DC 10 Wisdom (Insight) check would be surprised by the animating skeletons -- unless the players indicated caution as you did -- in which case you'd automatically succeed.

(EDIT: after another look-through of the "using ability scores" section, I'd probably amend that to a straight DC 10 Wisdom check if I wanted to be strict-RAW)

[Lunali]

If there are readied actions that you want to take, roll for initiative 6+ seconds earlier than you would have otherwise. In this case initiative should be rolled before the corpse is looted.

[Aussiehams]

So saying your readying before combat has no effect RAW.
What about if I narrated walking over and decapitating the corpse before any combat started?

[The Glyphstone]

That probably would have triggered animation the same way the other PC attempting to loot it did, is my guess.

[Xetheral]

G'day all.

Last week my group disinterested when the DM and another player had an argument.

We couldn't find any simple RAW and it spiraled.

Basicly we found some bodies that looked really suss in a dungeon. They didn't ping for undead or anything, but my PC was nervous and said he was ready to hit the corpse if it moved.

Combat hadn't started so their was no initiative order etc. yet.
When another PC tried to loot the corpse it animated.

That's when it gets confusing.

Should it be:
1. I swing with advantage (prone), then everyone rolls initiative,
2. Roll initiative, use my reaction as a normal ready action.
3. I swing at the top of the initiative and then it progresses as normal.

Any opinions?

Tanarii accurately described the RAW on this issue.

I would go a bit farther and observe that it is vitally important as a DM to let the players feel like their choices matter. With that in mind, I would have set up the encounter to play nice with the initiative rules and avoid a situation where a player who declares that their character is prepared for the corpses to move feels cheated. Possible options include:

1. Roll Initiative normally when the corpses start to animate, but have the animation process take each corpse's entire first full turn. The "prepared" PC doesn't get an advantage for stating they were prepared, but is at least guaranteed to get to attack before the corpses do.
2. Have the PCs make Wis (Perception) checks to avoid being surprised by the animating corpses, with the "prepared" PC auto-succeeding on the check because they correctly identified the hostile threat. The corpses might still get to attack first, but the "prepared" PC feels like they got a concrete benefit.

If I hadn't had the foresight to design the encounter with either of these options, I'd either give the "prepared PC" advantage on the initiative roll or else make an ad-hoc houserule to give the "prepared" PC some other benefit.

TLDR: The transition between non-combat and combat is a somewhat dangerous part of the rules where it's easy to accidentally cause players to be dissatisfied. I recommend care and flexibility on the part of the DM when dealing with this transition.

[Yora]

There is no correct rule what happens in that situation. It is whatever the GM decides seems to most appropriate in the situation.

[Malifice]

If there are readied actions that you want to take, roll for initiative 6+ seconds earlier than you would have otherwise. In this case initiative should be rolled before the corpse is looted.

What?

Players dont 'roll for initiative'.

The DM tells you when its time to determine initiative - usually at the start of a combat encounter.

In the OPs example, everyone was ready for imminent combat, and no-one was surprised. The DM narrates the corpses eyes popping open, and then he asks everyone to roll initiative.

Actions are resolved in turn order by highest results.

[Malifice]

So saying your readying before combat has no effect RAW.
What about if I narrated walking over and decapitating the corpse before any combat started?

If combat hasnt started yet, you can dismember as many corpses as you want outside of initiative.

As soon as combat starts (determined by the DM), he'll ask for initiative checks from all combatants. Everyone is ready for combat at the start of a combat. The initiative check determines which action goes first.

If PCs are not ready at the start of a combat (they're unawares of an imminent combat when the DM calls for initiative), then they're surprised.

Players: We walk around with readied actions to attack a monster as soon as we notice them!
DM: All the monsters in the game world all take readied actions to attack your PCs (or any other potential hostile threat) as soon as they notice you. Checkmate.

Basically at the start of a combat (as determined by the DM) you're either ready for combat (roll initiative normally) or you're not (roll initiative normally, but you cant act or move on turn 1 and you cant take reactions till your first turn ends).

Everyone is always ready, unless they're surprised.

[Reynaert]

What?

Players dont 'roll for initiative'.

The DM tells you when its time to determine initiative - usually at the start of a combat encounter.

In the OPs example, everyone was ready for imminent combat, and no-one was surprised. The DM narrates the corpses eyes popping open, and then he asks everyone to roll initiative.

Actions are resolved in turn order by highest results.

As soon as a player annouces that he readies himself to do such-and-such action, the DM should call for an initiative roll.
The DM narrates that the corpses do nothing, as they have not been triggered yet.

[BarneyBent]

I feel like a sensible thing to do would be either:

a) If the party would be surprised, that player isn’t;

b) if the party wouldn’t be surprised, the player can use their reaction for that round to make the attack at the start of the round.

[ProsecutorGodot]

As soon as a player annouces that he readies himself to do such-and-such action, the DM should call for an initiative roll.
The DM narrates that the corpses do nothing, as they have not been triggered yet.

The DM should announce that as you ready to swing the corpse begins to stir, roll initiative. Your readiness to act will be determined by whether you beat the animating corpse in initiative or not.

Initiative isn't rolled against an unperceived threat (from the players perspective) that's why the surprise rules exist. The player is always aware that an encounter has started when initiative is rolled, your character is determined as "surprised" if they haven't perceived that threat. It's effectively the same as being unable to act in fiction because you weren't prepared for the threat.

In this example, the PC could be considered surprised by the corpse (failing to discern its true nature) and can't take a reaction because of it.

[Reynaert]

The DM should announce that as you ready to swing the corpse begins to stir, roll initiative. Your readiness to act will be determined by whether you beat the animating corpse in initiative or not.

Initiative isn't rolled against an unperceived threat (from the players perspective) that's why the surprise rules exist. The player is always aware that an encounter has started when initiative is rolled, your character is determined as "surprised" if they haven't perceived that threat. It's effectively the same as being unable to act in fiction because you weren't prepared for the threat.

In this example, the PC could be considered surprised by the corpse (failing to discern its true nature) and can't take a reaction because of it.

Except they have a specific trigger to activate. I interpret the OP as 'they remain motionless until somebody touches one of the corpses'. So you're dead (excuse the pun) wrong.
Also, the player specifically *did* perceive a threat in the motionless corpses.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Except they have a specific trigger to activate. I interpret the OP as 'they remain motionless until somebody touches one of the corpses'. So you're dead (excuse the pun) wrong.
Also, the player specifically *did* perceive a threat in the motionless corpses.

What I mean by a "perceived threat" is a threat that would warrant initiative being rolled. My being threatened by a lamp in a room that may or may not be a mimic doesn't automatically start initiative, its when the actual mimic (the table on which the lamp is resting) animates that initiative is rolled.

My explanation of how I would rule the encounter was determined as follows:
-Player 1 suspects trap with corpses, readies weapon to strike.
-Player 2 attempts to loot corpse.
-Corpse animates, initiative is rolled. Player 1 is not surprised.
-Branching Path:
-Player 1 beats Corpse in initiative, strikes first.
-Corpse beats Player 1 in initiative, strikes Player 2.

Initiative isn't rolled when the player readies their weapon because there is no active threat on the field. This is why the surprise rules exist.

[Tanarii]

So saying your readying before combat has no effect RAW.

Technically that is correct. Xetheral is correct there are some situations in which the D&D transition to combat is not seamless. It's designed to work with two primary situations:
1) one side launches and ambush, revealing itself in the process.
2) both sides are aware of each other, ready to initiate combat at a moments notice, and something kicks it off.

What it doesn't handle well is the assumption by players or DMs that because they declared the action first, they (or a specific enemy) will act first. Initiative is supposed to determine that.

It also doesn't handle "I start combat by declaring an attack from hiding, without revealing myself or my allies until my attack occurs" situations very well. Be it a declaration on the player or DM side.

There are several ways for a DM to handle your situation, but none of them are likely pleasing to both sides. For example, it could have been stated by the DM that your entire party except you was surprised, because none of them stated they were 'ready for combat'. I'm sure that would have gone over far worse, despite it being fairly common in D&D modules over various editions for exactly this situation.

That's why generally speaking, I consider sticking to RAW in this case to generally, but not always, be the best route. It makes things consistent and simple and stops "I declared first" from being the ruling law of the table. But in this case, it's going to be iffy, and the DM should have worked out how they wanted to handle it in advance, and if a house rule would be needed.

If it helps, think of rolling initiative as determining who has the best reaction time when action suddenly explodes, with all non-surprised creatures being ready to do something in the case of sudden action, and a tie breaker being needed. And the Ready action is "I've had plenty of reaction time since action exploded to actually start acting, but now I'm going to further Delay my (re)action until a specific trigger happens."

What about if I narrated walking over and decapitating the corpse before any combat started?

Initiative is rolled. Creatures act in turn order.

If you narrate pulling the trigger on your crossbow you've got pointed at someone holding a hostage with a knife to their throat? Same.

If you narrate cutting hostage's throat you've got a knife to? Same.

Initiate checks are opposed Dexterity checks to determine who acts first when a time sensitive situation suddenly occurs, with two creatures taking opposing actions. In this case, "they declare their move and attack" vs "I declare I attack". You just tried to pre-empt that check with "if they move", and the DM is trying to pre-empt it with "looted". If you walk up and attack them, it's "I declare I attack" vs "they declare I move and attack" with the DM attempting to pre-empt it with wording of "if attacked" vs yours of "and I declared first".

But again, this is one of those situations where the rules can appear to be iffy or unfair at first glance. Especially if you're the player that declared their action first.

[Sigreid]

It could be argued that initiative should be rolled as soon as a player indicates they are readying a combat action, regardless of whether a fight or trigger is actually going to happen.

[jjordan]

IF the player said their character walked up to the corpse and decapitated it I would have had everyone roll for initiative and applied the surprised condition to everyone except the player, effectively giving the player a free strike on one of the corpses. I would do this because the corpses were apparently triggered by an action being taken upon them. They don't get to act until they are triggered so the action must come first.

IF the character acted as described then I would have the character make a perception check, with advantage. Probably a DC10. If they made that then I'd have them roll initiative at advantage with a +4 modifier. If they failed the perception check I'd have them roll initiative at advantage. I feel like good roleplay should be rewarded and the player was suspicious of the corpses and actively acting on that suspicion. That should make a difference.

[Tanarii]

IF the player said their character walked up to the corpse and decapitated it I would have had everyone roll for initiative and applied the surprised condition to everyone except the player, effectively giving the player a free strike on one of the corpses. I would do this because the corpses were apparently triggered by an action being taken upon them. They don't get to act until they are triggered so the action must come first.

IMO if one creature absolutely must act first, this is the best way to do it. It still allows enemies (and PCs) that beat the acting character to use reactions, but no actions.

[FrancisBean]

I'm in the camp which sees readying an action as implicitly starting the combat clock, even when it isn't explicit. If you can do an action in combat, you should be able to do it outside of combat (E.g., Featherfall can be cast out of combat even though it's a reaction spell). Player didn't just declare first, he established a reaction trigger. You don't need to be in combat to do that. Unfortunately, the rules really don't transition non-combat into combat very well, so I'd look to rule it as if the whole thing had happened in combat.

There's the goal: make it as if the whole thing had been in combat rules. Anything else is going to lead to a justifiably angry player whose choices didn't matter. Here's how I'd have handled it. The rules don't cover any of this, but it's the only fair approach I see. I'd have to add a virtual "Round 0" to the fight.

1. Character 1 readies an action to attack, where the trigger is "putative corpse moves." At this point, we should formally enter combat and roll initiative. Doing that every time would be too tedious to contemplate, and gives away the fact that there's a reason to be concerned. However, we can still treat it as if we're on round 0 of the combat. Presumably the undead have declared their actions as "hold still until someone touches me, then attack him/her."

2. Character 2 starts to search the body. This triggers the undead's readied action to attack, and this movement triggers character 1's reaction as well.

3. Now we need initiatives rolled to begin round 1. Whatever the order, we begin in the middle of character 2's turn, because everyone else's action was to stand around doing nothing, implied by their narrations. Character 1 and the undead had readied actions from their implicit last turns, whether they were on "Round 0" or on Round 1 (by having initiative order before Character 2).

4. Reactions are resolved by regular order. Surprise may apply by DM discretion as usual.

That's pretty nearly exactly the way it would have gone if we'd rolled initiative as soon the party saw the bodies, and players didn't let their knowledge of initiative rolls change their character actions.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm in the camp which sees readying an action as implicitly starting the combat clock, even when it isn't explicit. If you can do an action in combat, you should be able to do it outside of combat (E.g., Featherfall can be cast out of combat even though it's a reaction spell). Player didn't just declare first, he established a reaction trigger. You don't need to be in combat to do that. Unfortunately, the rules really don't transition non-combat into combat very well, so I'd look to rule it as if the whole thing had happened in combat.

There's the goal: make it as if the whole thing had been in combat rules. Anything else is going to lead to a justifiably angry player whose choices didn't matter. Here's how I'd have handled it. The rules don't cover any of this, but it's the only fair approach I see. I'd have to add a virtual "Round 0" to the fight.

1. Character 1 readies an action to attack, where the trigger is "putative corpse moves." At this point, we should formally enter combat and roll initiative. Doing that every time would be too tedious to contemplate, and gives away the fact that there's a reason to be concerned. However, we can still treat it as if we're on round 0 of the combat. Presumably the undead have declared their actions as "hold still until someone touches me, then attack him/her."

2. Character 2 starts to search the body. This triggers the undead's readied action to attack, and this movement triggers character 1's reaction as well.

3. Now we need initiatives rolled to begin round 1. Whatever the order, we begin in the middle of character 2's turn, because everyone else's action was to stand around doing nothing, implied by their narrations. Character 1 and the undead had readied actions from their implicit last turns, whether they were on "Round 0" or on Round 1 (by having initiative order before Character 2).

4. Reactions are resolved by regular order. Surprise may apply by DM discretion as usual.

That's pretty nearly exactly the way it would have gone if we'd rolled initiative as soon the party saw the bodies, and players didn't let their knowledge of initiative rolls change their character actions.

Great breakdown!

Bolded part is a problematic approach though, since it creates other problems, like in OPs case, he suspected from the bodies without knowing it was an encounter, had they rolled initiative, the same statement "I train my crossbow at the bodies and if the move I shoot" would be a pretty different situation, maybe he wouldn't have said it because now it could be seen as metagaming, maybe someone else at the table now thinks he was metagaming, and "good call on the bodies" turns to "grumble grumble metagaming grumble grumble".

A good "solution" I read somewhere in these forums was pre-rolling initiative for the next encounter at session start and after each short rest or encounter, this way players don't know when an encounter has started, but their initiative scores can already be used. The problems this brings about is players already knowing their initiative order, and taking some of the excitement from combat since "roll initiative!" won't be a thing anymore. I have yet to try this method, but plan on doing so next time I DM 5e.

[TheSchleus]

Initiative is rolled. Creatures act in turn order.

If you narrate pulling the trigger on your crossbow you've got pointed at someone holding a hostage with a knife to their throat? Same.

If you narrate cutting hostage's throat you've got a knife to? Same.

Initiate checks are opposed Dexterity checks to determine who acts first when a time sensitive situation suddenly occurs, with two creatures taking opposing actions. In this case, "they declare their move and attack" vs "I declare I attack". You just tried to pre-empt that check with "if they move", and the DM is trying to pre-empt it with "looted". If you walk up and attack them, it's "I declare I attack" vs "they declare I move and attack" with the DM attempting to pre-empt it with wording of "if attacked" vs yours of "and I declared first".

But again, this is one of those situations where the rules can appear to be iffy or unfair at first glance. Especially if you're the player that declared their action first.

While this isn't the same things as the OPs situation, for the hostage situation you mention here, I would suggest an opposed check with deception vs insight (the one who decided to act first making the deception check) for surprise. If there is no surprise, then the initiative roll is for who acts first.

I'm not sure that really works so well for undead pretending to be corpses, however, and would probably just give the OP's character advantage on the initiative roll in that case.