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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Beer View Post
    OK, so we have to specify system and edition, so let's do this:

    D&D 5e Fireball spell "ignites flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried.".

    Looks like a GM call to me. Medieval ships are not fireproof but may take precautions, especially if they expect to face fire weapons e.g. flaming arrows.

    I think the sails and rigging are going up. A poorly run ship is going to have flammable material on deck (e.g. buckets, rags, ropes etc. just lying around). A well run warship will not - stuff gets stowed. I would consider decking to be not very flammable so presumably is not going to just light up. Note that it looks like people probably aren't going to get ignited according to the spell description.

    My ruling would be that a fireball directed at a 60' long cog around its' single mast is going to ignite the sail and rigging.

    The crew of a well run ship will be able to cut down the flaming wreckage, saving the ship and mast, but they will be unable to get under power until they can re-rig the whole thing, making them vulnerable for quite some time.

    A poorly run ship is going to be alight in a bunch of places and the crew probably won't be able to prevent the whole thing eventually going up in flames.

    Basically, yes this would initially be a shipkiller if used against mediaeval cogs, were I running the game.

    However, in a world with fireballs, war captains will enchant the sail and rigging or use exotic non-flammable construction materials or at the very least, hose everything down with sea water prior to a battle. That should change the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    It would likely depend on the nature of the Fireball, but I can tell you that sailing ships were very, very flammable. Aside from the structures being made of wood, you had rope (often tarred for waterproofing), cloth, and other materials waiting to catch. In addition, most ships were waterproofed with pitch, which is usually either petroleum or plant-resin based. Needless to say, all of this basically makes your sailing vessel a floating torch with delusions of grandeur. In fact, shot heated to a glowing red was used by shore forts as very effective anti-ship munitions, one that could not be safely replicated on ships themselves due to the obvious dangers (though obviously that wouldn't apply here). Hell, even nowadays fires aboard ships are considered extremely dangerous, as even though the hulls are metal, there's usually lots of fuel aboard.

    However, sailors were (and usually still are) very well aware of this fact, and usually were very well trained, or at least motivated, in fire prevention and management. While even a small fire left unattended might be able to doom a vessel, an attentive crew would quickly be smothering it with water and sand. Also note that getting solid, well-seasoned wood to do anything more than scorch is a lot harder than it would appear, and a great deal of the outer surface of a ship, including the sails/rigging, will likely be soaked with water, further hindering ignition.

    As for fireball specifically, I will be using 5e's version of it, which is a 20 ft. radius sphere that spreads around corners and explicitly lights up flammable objects in the area. Depending on your definition of flammable you might have next to no effect (assuming you consider solid wood and/or or materials soaked with water to not be flammable), or literally everything on the outer surface of the ship set alight. Might not be so bad, except that the spell spreading around corners (and presumably through significant gaps) means you also may have to deal with everything on the inside, which is likely to be much drier, and still include many obviously flammable materials (hammocks, spare rope, etc.). And with that area of effect, there's no way most ships have a crew capable of adequately fighting the fire conventionally, even assuming they all survived the blast.
    Yes, for 5e. Sorry about that.

    I hadn't really thought about how basically everything would be soaked with water, especially since wet sails apparently catch the wind better. I also didn't think about how fireball could get into the the interior sections. So I'll be keeping all that in mind when sorting out what results from the usage of magic in ship construction and for my idea for a turtleship - instead of cannons a spellcaster or two using the dragonhead at the front to empower their fireball spells, setting even damp sections of the ship on fire.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Shepsquared View Post
    Yes, for 5e. Sorry about that.

    I hadn't really thought about how basically everything would be soaked with water, especially since wet sails apparently catch the wind better. I also didn't think about how fireball could get into the the interior sections. So I'll be keeping all that in mind when sorting out what results from the usage of magic in ship construction and for my idea for a turtleship - instead of cannons a spellcaster or two using the dragonhead at the front to empower their fireball spells, setting even damp sections of the ship on fire.
    Fireball spells definitely kill any wooden ship. Hell even lower level fire spells with any range would be ship killers too. As would potions of fiery burning etc.

    In earlier warfare with galleys the threat of fire isn’t reported as being so a dreaded. It took the invention of Greek Fire to turn the fire threat into the realms of being super scary. I assume this may be due to relatively denser crews per square foot being able to respond to fires more quickly.

    If you have a world where magic fireballs are commonplace then that leads to one of several things:-
    - Sea going ships not being used because they are too easy to kill. (For something similar look at the ME 321/323 Gigant in WW2. If something is too big and too easy to kill people stop using it). Coastal vessels and galleys could still be viable, but things like cogs would not.
    - Anti-Fireball measures are common and used routinely. This allows for cogs, but fireball and similar spells would be mostly ineffective.
    - Cogs are only used by people who can equip each cog with a wizard or two for fireballs/fireball defense.

    All of this would be well established lore in the region. Your PCs are not going to be the first people in the world to think “I wonder what happens if we use common magic set fire to that floating box of wood, tar, pitch and rope?”

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Shepsquared View Post
    Yes, for 5e. Sorry about that.

    I hadn't really thought about how basically everything would be soaked with water, especially since wet sails apparently catch the wind better. I also didn't think about how fireball could get into the the interior sections. So I'll be keeping all that in mind when sorting out what results from the usage of magic in ship construction and for my idea for a turtleship - instead of cannons a spellcaster or two using the dragonhead at the front to empower their fireball spells, setting even damp sections of the ship on fire.
    If your intent is to make Fireball an even better shipkiller (which seems a little like trying to put a space heater in a furnace, but your choice), you could always say that enough water is evaporated out by the heat to cause most wet objects to light up anyway, perhaps requiring repeated strikes to get ignition. For your turtleship-analogue, I would recommend ceramic tiles or iron plate all around (for fireproofing, it can be paper-thin), as well as internal shutters for all openings to prevent Fireballs from getting through and scorching the inside.

    Other potential counters to fire aside from runes and spells may include "sprinkler" systems set up on the masts to keep everything damp, fed by pumps leading from the bilge or sea, which could also be used to flood the decks. Asbestos (would have been available, though in real history it was a very exotic material in the period you're using) covers or containers for the most flammable materials might be an option as well. Rather complex and expensive for the time, but probably feasible in a more fantastical world.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    A god of travel may offer protection from fire spells to ships with his symbol painted on. Depending on how easy you want it to be, there may or may not be a cleric and/or a spell involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Not only would they be shipkillers, they would transform naval warfare. No one really got past "ram them or board them" until the invention of reliable cannon and the ability to mount them without messing up the ship. Yes, there we some ballista and small siege weapons were used in antiquity, and early carronades in the late medieval/early renaissance period but the name of the game was generally ram a hole in the waterline, break their oars with a raking attack, or board them. Even with Napoleonic cannon and ships, generally you had to get in close and batter the almighty hell out of each other with banks and banks of guns. Inaccuracy and the ability for wooden ships to keep floating despite being hit by several iron balls turned naval warfare into a slugging match.

    With "fireball", you have none of that. You point, they die. The end. 50 yards for the non-extended range of the spell, so basically Napoleonic broadside range, but you can wield it as one man in 360 degree arc, and fire shots off as quickly drawing a bow. Unless you can afford to magically shield your ships from fire - and presumably, the kings of the world would be smart enough to mass produce wands if they wanted naval dominance - any large ship is a liability. A flaming coffin for your men waiting to happen. So you would have this odd mix of magical dreadnaughts combined with cheap and small firing platforms whose only purpose would be to carry killer spells into range. Anyone with shielding is basically playing rocket tag - we get close enough, then we both explode into flames, sink, and die. Or you have an extra few yards, and you turn me into a pyre first, but unless you smahs me to pieces before I cover the gap, you die too.

    Really, on-call snap-your-fingers common magic pretty much destroys anything approaching a "real world" tactical solution in medieval times.

    The more martyr-centric religions would love it.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    So with the Rocket Tag thing, one warfare evolution may be to have a large heavily fireproofed ship surrounded by a flotilla of detection/protection vessels. This heavy ship acts as a base from which squadrons of flying fireball wizards sally forth in order to engage enemy fleets.
    Last edited by Mr Beer; 2019-06-11 at 10:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    93. No matter what the character sheet say, there are only 3 PC alignments: Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    In the Tanya the Evil manga they actually test what happens when you pit flying sorcerers vs WWI dreadnaughts.

    Tanya proposes to turn the warships into aircraft carriers, adding multiple layers of anti-air artillery to protect them against flying foes...

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Does anyone have a good idea of how in the world people adjusted the rigging on undecked galleys? For something like a trireme or a larger Hellenistic ship, where there's at least a partial deck, it's not difficult to see, but I have difficulty imagining how one could rotate yards, raise sails, adjust trim, and the like in a penteconter or Renaissance galley, where most of the surface is just packed with rowers.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Does anyone have a good idea of how in the world people adjusted the rigging on undecked galleys? For something like a trireme or a larger Hellenistic ship, where there's at least a partial deck, it's not difficult to see, but I have difficulty imagining how one could rotate yards, raise sails, adjust trim, and the like in a penteconter or Renaissance galley, where most of the surface is just packed with rowers.
    Maybe you don't need to do so much with the sails when all those rowers are there. When you're under sail, presumably they don't have sit there and get in your way.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Does anyone have a good idea of how in the world people adjusted the rigging on undecked galleys? For something like a trireme or a larger Hellenistic ship, where there's at least a partial deck, it's not difficult to see, but I have difficulty imagining how one could rotate yards, raise sails, adjust trim, and the like in a penteconter or Renaissance galley, where most of the surface is just packed with rowers.
    Renaissance galleys didn't have the surface packed with rowers... they had at least partial decks....

    Look, there are three wooden strips going from stern to bow, one along each rail, and a third running through the middle of the ship...



    Maybe you are thinking about galliots or about Renaissance brigantines (which were similar to viking drakkars) and frigates (which were basically long chalupas...). Some later "galleys" didn't have full decks, either...

    As for the Pentekonter... galley-type ships did use either sails or oars, not both at the same time. When you are going to use the oars, you haul down the sail and sometimes you may even remove the mast itself...
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-06-12 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    As for the Pentekonter... galley-type ships did use either sails or oars, not both at the same time. When you are going to use the oars, you haul down the sail and sometimes you may even remove the mast itself...
    In that case, though, the rowers are still there and there's not a lot of room for the dedicated sailors to move about.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Does anyone have a good idea of how in the world people adjusted the rigging on undecked galleys? For something like a trireme or a larger Hellenistic ship, where there's at least a partial deck, it's not difficult to see, but I have difficulty imagining how one could rotate yards, raise sails, adjust trim, and the like in a penteconter or Renaissance galley, where most of the surface is just packed with rowers.
    Ancient galleys didn't have complex rigging like later vessels that relied on sail. For a start they could step and unstep the mast relatively easily, which you couldn't do if you have to take the rigging apart and put it back together again. Sails were shortened by use of brails.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    In that case, though, the rowers are still there and there's not a lot of room for the dedicated sailors to move about.
    The crew operated the ship. Dedicated rowers only really appear to have been used on slave galleys (which was more a renaissance thing than a classical thing) or high speed galleys that were under oar for extended periods.

    It doesn’t make sense to pay one bunch of guys to sit around and do nothing while another group of guys do work if you can train one bunch of guys to do both tasks.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    "Slave galleys" weren't an ancient thing at all; oarsmen were trained professionals, or else citizens serving out their militia duties. The idea of slaves chained to their benches was largely a fiction created by Ben Hur.

    Why would free oarsmen want to serve on a vessel that used slave labour? Where would they keep the slaves when they beached at night? How would they keep a large contingent of slaves under control, given the limited freeboard and thus small crew?
    Last edited by Kiero; 2019-06-13 at 03:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Slave rowers were around a bit earlier than the Renaissance (I have in mind an example from 900 AD), but they were mostly used by the Saracens, as far as I can remember.

    Looking at the image of the galley, does anyone know why they used to put most cannons in the front, and when they begun putting them on the sides? I assume that there was a risk of capsizing?

    Also, do we have any well-preserved wreck of a galley in some museum? I know that they excavated a merchant galley near Venice (San Marco in Boccalama), but I don't know if they actually ever put it in a museum.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Slave rowers were around a bit earlier than the Renaissance (I have in mind an example from 900 AD), but they were mostly used by the Saracens, as far as I can remember.

    Looking at the image of the galley, does anyone know why they used to put most cannons in the front, and when they begun putting them on the sides? I assume that there was a risk of capsizing?

    Also, do we have any well-preserved wreck of a galley in some museum? I know that they excavated a merchant galley near Venice (San Marco in Boccalama), but I don't know if they actually ever put it in a museum.
    Spaniards used slave rowers too, but it was mostly a matter of labor shortage... there weren't enough free people willing to take the job (low pay, dangerous, hard work and horrid working conditions), so they pressed criminals and prisioners into it...

    True slaves, as in people bought with money or born from other slaves were a very small minority, a last resort...slaves were expensive, an if well treated, they were more trustworthy than prisioners or criminals, so they were kept working in the cities...

    EDIT: Only big galleys and galleasses used slave rowers... smaller renaissance brigantines, frigates, galliots and feluccas tended to be manned by free men only...

    EDIT 2: Over time, rowing became associated with criminals, captives and lowlifes, becoming a dishonourable task, and finding free rowers became even harder ..
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-06-13 at 05:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Looking at the image of the galley, does anyone know why they used to put most cannons in the front, and when they begun putting them on the sides? I assume that there was a risk of capsizing?
    Stability issues, but also it's the logical way of doing it. You point your galley the way it wants to go and aim where you are going, very simple.

    Basically, the way a galley is built you can only put weigth in the centre line, also the rowers take up space on the sides. But mostly a galley is built a certain way that is not conductive to putting cannon on the sides. You need a lot of ballast deep in the hulls to not roll over, again something galleys just can't have.

    Also you have to understand galley fleets face each other head on. The line-abreast formation was quite a late invention really, almost a century after cannon were commonly side-mounted of ships. Forming up head on is a necessity ofc course since most of your damage comes from head-on, eg rams.

    We need to look at the galley as essentially a fully explored technology at the time cannon is introduced, we are at "peak galley".

    We get side-mounted cannon only with the introduction of sizable roundships. They have the displacement and stability to mount them on the sides. Still in the 1600s shipbuilders weren't experienced enough not to make bad mistakes sometimes, RE: Wasa which capsized on her maiden voyage.
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2019-06-13 at 05:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Also, do we have any well-preserved wreck of a galley in some museum? I know that they excavated a merchant galley near Venice (San Marco in Boccalama), but I don't know if they actually ever put it in a museum.
    La Real is a replica, but it was built using the original blueprints, I believe...

    There is also the Kadirga in Istanbul Naval Museum, which is an original, not a replica...

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    As for that illustration, by the way, it (as well as most depictions of Renaissance and early modern galleys I have seen) shows the oars going over the outer walkways, such that anyone attempting to traverse them would have to step over each oar and then be careful of where they stand, lest the oar swing into their ankles during the stroke. This seems like an impractical way to conduct tasks which by themselves are demanding and dangerous, like handling rigging or fighting.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Not a wreck, but there is the Olympias, a reconstruction of a trieres, which is also commissioned in the Greek navy.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Presumably, yes, rocket tag would include small offensive and defensive screens, though with ranges well within visual, we'd literally be talking clouds of ships boats/rowing skiffs. Or flying things. Whatever. Anything to get the easy ship killing power out near the enemy and away from you. Surprise would also be a killer. A "cutting out" party that could get into an anchorage, or a single wand shooter waiting either beneath the waves or just hard to see until you got within 50 yards until a ship or squadron came by... would basically be as good as hitting them with cluster bombs. D6+1 charges a day right? 20 max? So, twenty dead unshielded ships if you can slip one wand bearer into range.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Perhaps this is stretching the intent of this thread a little, but I figure someone here would know the answer: Wasn't there some quote that some Spartan guy said of Athens at the end of the Peloponnesian war? I remember it being a rather nice quote, but I don't recall the words.

    It was something in the same spirit as Frank's quote after Charlie stole his money on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Maybe not exactly, but I remember the quote seemed kind of sporting/ chivalrous when I read it at 2AM five years ago.

    The best I can find is wikipedia mentions that "Athens and Sparta should have the same friends and enemies." I was sure there was more to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    As for that illustration, by the way, it (as well as most depictions of Renaissance and early modern galleys I have seen) shows the oars going over the outer walkways, such that anyone attempting to traverse them would have to step over each oar and then be careful of where they stand, lest the oar swing into their ankles during the stroke. This seems like an impractical way to conduct tasks which by themselves are demanding and dangerous, like handling rigging or fighting.
    While using the oars, sailors would use the central walkway to move around.

    While using the sails, the oarsmen themselves would do the rigging, and would use the central walkway if they needed to move around. It would be kinda slow, but sails weren't used during combat, there wasn't a reason to hurry. Plus the rigging of galleys tended to be simple.

    During combat galleys would shoot at their foes from their forecastle or frontal gun deck, they rammed them and boarded them jumping from their galleys's bow... oarsmen weren't in the way.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-06-14 at 04:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Perhaps this is stretching the intent of this thread a little, but I figure someone here would know the answer: Wasn't there some quote that some Spartan guy said of Athens at the end of the Peloponnesian war? I remember it being a rather nice quote, but I don't recall the words.

    It was something in the same spirit as Frank's quote after Charlie stole his money on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Maybe not exactly, but I remember the quote seemed kind of sporting/ chivalrous when I read it at 2AM five years ago.

    The best I can find is wikipedia mentions that "Athens and Sparta should have the same friends and enemies." I was sure there was more to it.
    The Spartans did say "Sorry Thebans & Corinthians, we are NOT destroying Athens". Xenophon, Hellenics, II.2:

    [19] Now when Theramenes and the other ambassadors were at Sellasia and, on being asked with what proposals they had come, replied that they had full power to treat for peace, the ephors thereupon gave orders to summon them to Lacedaemon. When they arrived, the ephors called an assembly, at which the Corinthians and Thebans in particular, though many other Greeks agreed with them, opposed making a treaty with the Athenians and favoured destroying their city.

    [20] The Lacedaemonians, however, said that they would not enslave a Greek city which had done great service amid the greatest perils that had befallen Greece, and they offered to make peace on these conditions: that the Athenians should destroy the long walls and the walls of Piraeus, surrender all their ships except twelve, allow their exiles to return, count the same people friends and enemies as the Lacedaemonians did, and follow the Lacedaemonians both by land and by sea wherever they should lead the way.

    [21] So Theramenes and his fellow-ambassadors brought back this word to Athens. And as they were entering the city, a great crowd gathered around them, fearful that they had returned unsuccessful; for it was no longer possible to delay, on account of the number who were dying of the famine.

    [22] On the next day the ambassadors reported to the Assembly the terms on which the Lacedaemonians offered to make peace; Theramenes acted as spokesman for the embassy, and urged that it was best to obey the Lacedaemonians and tear down the walls. And while some spoke in opposition to him, a far greater number supported him, and it was voted to accept the peace.

    The "same friends and enemies" formulation was actually the name for a kind of league; some leagues were defensive in nature, but others essentially put the city's military power at disposal of a hegemon city, and this is what Sparta is asking from Athens. I don't know if it actually got to the point where Athens completely would have relinquished all of its foreign policy decisions to Sparta, or if it just was the matter of always join in Spartan wars, but Sparta did later install an oligarchic government known as the 30 tyrants in Athens, which had the same results as giving up foreign policy.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    What is that thing that seems to be an air intake on the bottom of a P-51 mustang? It looks like it's in the completely wrong place to be part of the engine.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    What is that thing that seems to be an air intake on the bottom of a P-51 mustang? It looks like it's in the completely wrong place to be part of the engine.
    You're right. It's the radiator's air intake.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    This helped me finding this drawing:

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    It does indeed have the cooling for the engine in the back of the plane. Seems a bit weird, but I guess you'll have to make do with the space you got.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
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    It does indeed have the cooling for the engine in the back of the plane. Seems a bit weird, but I guess you'll have to make do with the space you got.
    Water cooled engines (as opposed to air cooled rotary engines) had a notorious weak spot - the radiator.
    In combat you generally want your nose pointed towards the enemy. When the radiator is nose mounted you have one of the weakest points of the aircraft at the point where a lot of expected incoming fire is coming from.
    Also have the radiator in the nose makes it difficult to streamline the fuselage - for example look at the SE5a from the Great War.

    The spitfire and ME109 for example had two underwing radiators. There were some nose mounted radiators like in the P-40 Hawk series and Hawker Typhoon, but for the most part aircraft designers tried to move the radiator away from the nose where possible.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
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    It does indeed have the cooling for the engine in the back of the plane. Seems a bit weird, but I guess you'll have to make do with the space you got.
    One thing that's important to note is that space and complexity of ductwork are not the only factors in play. They wanted the radiator to be far back and long. Being far back means that it'll ingest less turbulent air from the prop, and being long means that the air travels within the radiator for a greater distance, increasing heat transfer without increasing the frontal area, which would produce more drag. In addition, the shape of the assembly actually produced a tiny amount of forward thrust due to the expansion of air being heated by the radiator. Probably not even enough thrust to offset the drag produced by the radiator, but it's better than just getting drag.

    The Mustang was designed from the outset as a long-ranged fighter escort, and while the development time was laughably short, the designers knew exactly what they were doing. Aerodynamic refinements like these are often put down as part of why the Mustang managed to be so effective.
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