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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Thanks for the answer! Would you know the names of any of the manuals that are notorious for said chapter?




    I was under the impression that the old version of boxing was still more recent than the Middle Age. And do you have any source on how wrestling was practiced during that period? I'd like to know more.
    I have edited my previous post and included a couple links.

    People have always boxed, but without rules. They just punched each other until somebody fell down and couldn't get up. It went mostly unrecorded, since it was a "game" of commoners, thugs and lowlifes (high class people learned self-defense, but they didn't box), and educated people paid it little attention, but there are references to boxing in medieval Italy and in Russia.

    As for wrestling, there are many wrestling traditions: Lucha Canaria, Lucha Leonesa, Cornish wrestling, Lancashire wrestling, Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling... etc.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-06-23 at 08:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    I have edited my previous post and included a couple links.

    People have always boxed, but without rules. They just punched each other until somebody fell down and couldn't get up. It went mostly unrecorded, since it was a "game" of commoners, thugs and lowlifes (high class people learned self-defense, but they didn't box), and educated people paid it little attention, but there are references to boxing in medieval Italy and in Russia.

    As for wrestling, there are many wrestling traditions: Lucha Canaria, Lucha Leonesa, Cornualles's Wrestling, Lancashire's Wrestling... etc.
    Thank you once more.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Hello folks.

    I'm sorry if it's not on topic, but this thread was the closest I found.

    My question is: do we know anything about European unarmed martial arts during the medieval period?

    I know that knights and swordsfighters were known for punching/kicking each other and grappling/wrestling when they could, because it's useful in any close-range combat. And I suppose texts like Beowulf talk about heroes brawling and wrestling. But aside from that all the European unarmed fighting I'm aware of was established and widespread either before or after the 400-1600 A.D. range.

    Which I guess make sense as unarmed martial arts tend to be popular either as part of combat sports or when a large group of people are forbidden from bearing weapons. But still, does anyone has info on medieval fisticuffs?
    Pankration was banned by the Edicts of Theodosius against paganism, but allegedly it was still practised in secret until as late as the 10th century AD.

    As long as it was in existence, I can imagine people would have been using it to inspire other sorts of unarmed combat.

    Also bound up in murky rumours, but some suggest there's evidence from swordsmanship manuals of the 1400s which show the emergence of savate and zipota (the latter is a Basque martial art similar to the French one).
    Last edited by Kiero; 2019-06-23 at 01:29 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Thank you once more.
    A reference to boxing in Venice.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    On box/wrestling don't forget pankration from Greece. Its a bit older than the medieval period, but likely forms the root of many unarmed combat techniques. Alexander was a skill pankration practitioner, and was tutored in it. So there were techniques, and move sets that were used. The only really off limits options though were biting and eye gouging, at least as far as official rules for competition went.

    Think modern MMA, but the opponents can kill each other to win.

    Fun fact, a pankratiast picked up the nickname "Fingertips" because he like to break his opponent's fingers early in a bout.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Maybe a little bit off-topic; could someone tell me roughly how much coal per hour was needed to move an average american civil war ironclad river steamboat like for example the CSS Missouri?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth27 View Post
    Maybe a little bit off-topic; could someone tell me roughly how much coal per hour was needed to move an average american civil war ironclad river steamboat like for example the CSS Missouri?
    A big steamer trans-Atlantic with eight boilers could burn upwards of 100 tons per day on the low end. Missouri had four boilers, assuming they're roughly half the size of a trans-Atlantic steamer, that gives us about one-quarter the fuel. So 25 tons per day.

    https://civilwartalk.com/threads/iro...uestion.73778/ sort of supports that.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2019-06-23 at 04:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth27 View Post
    Maybe a little bit off-topic; could someone tell me roughly how much coal per hour was needed to move an average american civil war ironclad river steamboat like for example the CSS Missouri?
    on top of what Beleriphon just said, bear in mind that a steam engine needs to quite literally "build up steam" and get the pressure up to a useable level, which is a process that can take hours on many ships, which needs to be factored into fuel usage. Getting one of these things going was a quite complex task that needed hours of forwarning to get the engines ready. they weren't like modern cars where you just turn the key and then go.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    On box/wrestling don't forget pankration from Greece. Its a bit older than the medieval period, but likely forms the root of many unarmed combat techniques. Alexander was a skill pankration practitioner, and was tutored in it. So there were techniques, and move sets that were used. The only really off limits options though were biting and eye gouging, at least as far as official rules for competition went.

    Think modern MMA, but the opponents can kill each other to win.

    Fun fact, a pankratiast picked up the nickname "Fingertips" because he like to break his opponent's fingers early in a bout.
    *cough* I just mentioned panktration. It supposedly dates back to 7th century BC and was practised quite widely wherever there were Greeks until the Christian Emperor Theodosius banned it along with all other "pagan" activities in 4th century AD. When it went underground for another few centuries until it died out in the 900s.

    It featured techniques for use in armour and with a shield, as well as properly unarmed and unarmoured techniques.

    Another fun fact, in one Olympic pankration bout, an athlete won, even though he'd died during the clinch he was in.

    There's also the story of Dioxippus, a pankratiatist who beat one of Alexander's men in a contest when armed with only a club.
    Last edited by Kiero; 2019-06-23 at 06:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    At what point would a cudgel stop being a cudgel and start being something else? I wanted to give a character a cudgel in particular (I like the name, and part of the initial weapon design was based on the Demonlord Cudgel from Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, though that one due to being an in-game Insect Glaive is much bigger than a normal one).
    Would the appropiateness of the word "cudgel" taper off at being a third the length of someone (of average height)? A half? Being as long as them?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    At what point would a cudgel stop being a cudgel and start being something else? I wanted to give a character a cudgel in particular (I like the name, and part of the initial weapon design was based on the Demonlord Cudgel from Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, though that one due to being an in-game Insect Glaive is much bigger than a normal one).
    Would the appropiateness of the word "cudgel" taper off at being a third the length of someone (of average height)? A half? Being as long as them?
    There is no strict technical definition of a cudgel. They have other names such as shillelagh, knob-Korrie, nulla-nulla depending on what part of the world you are in. More or less a cudgel is a wooden mace. The defining part is a rounded protrusion at one end.

    Basically the differentiation is cudgel-club-staff-stick. Cudgels are made like with a definite heavy end and a bulbous end. Clubs taper from thin to thick. Sticks are more evenly weighted and smoothly proportioned. Staffs are big enough to be wielded two handed. However where one category ends and another starts is open to debate.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    There is no strict technical definition of a cudgel. They have other names such as shillelagh, knob-Korrie, nulla-nulla depending on what part of the world you are in. More or less a cudgel is a wooden mace. The defining part is a rounded protrusion at one end.

    Basically the differentiation is cudgel-club-staff-stick. Cudgels are made like with a definite heavy end and a bulbous end. Clubs taper from thin to thick. Sticks are more evenly weighted and smoothly proportioned. Staffs are big enough to be wielded two handed. However where one category ends and another starts is open to debate.
    Plus some of the same words are verbs too, so you could club or cudgel someone with a staff or a stick. It's all very murky.

    (And I suppose you could "stick" someone with a club...)
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Hello folks.

    I'm sorry if it's not on topic, but this thread was the closest I found.

    My question is: do we know anything about European unarmed martial arts during the medieval period?

    I know that knights and swordsfighters were known for punching/kicking each other and grappling/wrestling when they could, because it's useful in any close-range combat. And I suppose texts like Beowulf talk about heroes brawling and wrestling. But aside from that all the European unarmed fighting I'm aware of was established and widespread either before or after the 400-1600 A.D. range.

    Which I guess make sense as unarmed martial arts tend to be popular either as part of combat sports or when a large group of people are forbidden from bearing weapons. But still, does anyone has info on medieval fisticuffs?
    Wiktenauer is the largest online collection of documents related to Medieval martial arts. It's important to remember that techniques that can be done with weapons are frequently techniques that can be done without weapons as well. So the apparent lack of unarmed techniques in some manuscripts is deceptive. For grappling work Fiore Dei Liberi has some good stuff (both armored and unarmored). Pedro Monte has good information on wrestling. Ringer Kunst has a lot of wrestling material.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    There is no strict technical definition of a cudgel. They have other names such as shillelagh, knob-Korrie, nulla-nulla depending on what part of the world you are in. More or less a cudgel is a wooden mace. The defining part is a rounded protrusion at one end.

    Basically the differentiation is cudgel-club-staff-stick. Cudgels are made like with a definite heavy end and a bulbous end. Clubs taper from thin to thick. Sticks are more evenly weighted and smoothly proportioned. Staffs are big enough to be wielded two handed. However where one category ends and another starts is open to debate.
    Thank you very much. So if I have it be a large, bulbous ended thing (or maybe conical with a rounded end? Working on making it look good but not overly complex) and a large heavier end to function as a sort of a grip, it can be a loosely correct cudgel. I suppose it is basically just a "a pole/stave/baton meant for whacking things", so it works! Technically!
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Thank you very much. So if I have it be a large, bulbous ended thing (or maybe conical with a rounded end? Working on making it look good but not overly complex) and a large heavier end to function as a sort of a grip, it can be a loosely correct cudgel. I suppose it is basically just a "a pole/stave/baton meant for whacking things", so it works! Technically!
    There is definitely a lot of examples of walking sticks with a rounded knob designed for whacking things. Here is a video from Matt Easton with one example of a cudgel-ish walking stick. https://youtu.be/mvIcxK8U5WM

    Also of interest
    https://youtu.be/WTEUz9lXExI
    https://youtu.be/k1_FN5jUNsg

    https://youtu.be/d43qH9w5Dow

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Hey all! I've got a question about jungle warfare. I've got two PMCs clashing in a Bolivia-style jungle circa 1950, and I was curious what the soldiers would be realistically equipped with for the situation. What firearms are best suited to the terrain, and what other gear they'd likely need. Thanks everyone

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by SleepyShadow View Post
    Hey all! I've got a question about jungle warfare. I've got two PMCs clashing in a Bolivia-style jungle circa 1950, and I was curious what the soldiers would be realistically equipped with for the situation. What firearms are best suited to the terrain, and what other gear they'd likely need. Thanks everyone
    In the jungle, ranges will be short. SMGs, carbines and shotguns are all good choices. You don't really need a full powered rifle round that can reach out to 500 yards because you'll never see a target that far out, and the higher capacity and lighter recoil, not to mention the reduced weight of a carbine is nice. 1950 is early for assault rifles, but they existed. The German SG44 and the early iterations of the AK were a thing, just not widely available. The Korean War was fought without any.

    Each squad should have some kind of light machinegun. Maybe a BAR or a Bren.

    Hand grenades are great when you know a guy is over there but can see him very well. They're also good because there's no noise and flash to give your position away. All that happens at the target.

    Lots of fights will be ambushes or meeting engagements at close range. Co-ordinating large units will be difficult. Most tactics will be at the team or squad level. So you will want good NCOs who can take initiative. The Captain will be too far from most of the company to see, let alone command them all. Radios are primitive, especially in bad terrain that will block the signal, so every corporal or sergeant needs to be able to act without having to wait on orders.

    Mobility is harder. Vehicles will have limited usefulness. Hard to get trucks and APCs and so on through the jungle, and even helicopters are limited by decent landing zones. Lots of the mobility will be on foot. Pack mules might be a good thing.

    As far as other gear, everyone needs a machete. Waterproof groundsheets, mosquito nets, mosquito repellent, water purification tablets (there's plenty of water, but it's full of nasty microbes) are all nice. Uniforms should be lightweight, carry plenty of extra sock and change them often to avoid trench foot. Well packaged rations, since stuff spoils very easily in the jungle. First aid kits need to contain anti-malaria drugs and topical antibiotics to treat sores and cuts so they don't get infected, as they will stay warm and wet and great sports for bacteria.

    Marching in the jungle is hard. It's a lot of work, it's hot and humid so your sweat doesn't evaporate and cool you off and men will ditch heavy gear they don't see a use for. Movement will be slow. Men need to rest and rehydrate often.

    That's a good start. It all depends on how much detail you want to go into.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    Another fun fact, in one Olympic pankration bout, an athlete won, even though he'd died during the clinch he was in.

    There's also the story of Dioxippus, a pankratiatist who beat one of Alexander's men in a contest when armed with only a club.
    Yeah, I saw that. I got ninja'd.

    I knew about those. The guy that died was Arrhichion of Phigalia declared Olympic Champion because his opponent had "tapped out" because Arrhichion either broke his ankle or dislocated his toe. So, he posthumously won the event. There's even an original statue of him in Olympia today.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2019-06-26 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by SleepyShadow View Post
    Hey all! I've got a question about jungle warfare. I've got two PMCs clashing in a Bolivia-style jungle circa 1950, and I was curious what the soldiers would be realistically equipped with for the situation. What firearms are best suited to the terrain, and what other gear they'd likely need. Thanks everyone
    Well if they’re in Bolivia, most of Bolivia is high altitude altiplano plateau or mountains. Unless they were specifically recruited for jungle warfare they’d probable by equipped as mountain troops.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    In the jungle, ranges will be short. SMGs, carbines and shotguns are all good choices. You don't really need a full powered rifle round that can reach out to 500 yards because you'll never see a target that far out, and the higher capacity and lighter recoil, not to mention the reduced weight of a carbine is nice. 1950 is early for assault rifles, but they existed. The German SG44 and the early iterations of the AK were a thing, just not widely available. The Korean War was fought without any.

    Each squad should have some kind of light machinegun. Maybe a BAR or a Bren.

    Hand grenades are great when you know a guy is over there but can see him very well. They're also good because there's no noise and flash to give your position away. All that happens at the target.

    Lots of fights will be ambushes or meeting engagements at close range. Co-ordinating large units will be difficult. Most tactics will be at the team or squad level. So you will want good NCOs who can take initiative. The Captain will be too far from most of the company to see, let alone command them all. Radios are primitive, especially in bad terrain that will block the signal, so every corporal or sergeant needs to be able to act without having to wait on orders.

    Mobility is harder. Vehicles will have limited usefulness. Hard to get trucks and APCs and so on through the jungle, and even helicopters are limited by decent landing zones. Lots of the mobility will be on foot. Pack mules might be a good thing.

    As far as other gear, everyone needs a machete. Waterproof groundsheets, mosquito nets, mosquito repellent, water purification tablets (there's plenty of water, but it's full of nasty microbes) are all nice. Uniforms should be lightweight, carry plenty of extra sock and change them often to avoid trench foot. Well packaged rations, since stuff spoils very easily in the jungle. First aid kits need to contain anti-malaria drugs and topical antibiotics to treat sores and cuts so they don't get infected, as they will stay warm and wet and great sports for bacteria.

    Marching in the jungle is hard. It's a lot of work, it's hot and humid so your sweat doesn't evaporate and cool you off and men will ditch heavy gear they don't see a use for. Movement will be slow. Men need to rest and rehydrate often.

    That's a good start. It all depends on how much detail you want to go into.
    Great post. A few points to add.
    - Soldiers preferred slower heavier bullets in the jungle over lighter faster bullets. The slow heavy bullet is less likely to be deflected by foliage. For example with SMGs a .45 cal SMG is more highly regarded in the jungle than 9mm parabellum.
    - Reliability is the king. Failure rates multiply by 5 to 10 times in the Jungle. For example the Australian Owen SMG is a big heavy SMG (a bad thing in the jungle). The troops absolutely loved it because it went Bang! every single time you pulled the trigger.
    - Jungle warfare is low light warfare. Flash hiders are very useful.
    - Whilst assault rifles are not yet a thing, semi-auto rifles will be the cutting edge for PMCs. Less well funded PMCs would use bolt action rifles.
    - The British and Australian armies developed a lot of jungle specific equipment.
    - Helmets end up being not so useful in the jungle. Some armies discontinued the use of helmets in the jungle.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Re: Jungle Goodness.

    A lot of this depends on how you envision the PMCs, and where in the 50's you are. Regardless of the technical details...

    -Automatic weapons. At 50 yards with a hard to see enemy and dense foliage, firefights will turn into literally throwing up a wall of lead towards where you think the enemy is. If you have the good fortune to see them first, you'll lose your ability to aim well when they go to ground, so you'll want to smash down their unit with loads of firepower. Hard to miss at that range if you can get a bead, even blasting out long bursts. If you can't see them anymore, you hose where you think they are to stop them from firing and to get lucky. And at Jungle ranges you need a lot less luck to hit while shooting up an area, than say, trying the same thing from across a European farm field.

    -HE. Something that makes the boom happen. It might be hand grenades. It might be an RPG-2 equivalent. You're trusting blast effect and shrapnel to produce casualties, and to get into the dead space that thick root balls, ditches, and all that other stuff provides. Again, aim at the enemy is preferable...but...blow the hell out of where he should be will also do a trick. This is particularly true given thick trees, earth mounds. and other heavy cover that will stop even the heaviest bullets. You need a way to get the flying metal to come at him from behind the cover, and shrapnel is how you do it.

    -Ammo. Lots of ammo. See above about throwing up walls of lead and liberally blasting areas with HE. If you run low, you can't fire as much, and he drives you down and maneuvers on you. Or you take your chances running away through that hail of unaimed lead. Either way, ammo.

    -Mortars. These will be popular. Light enough to hump, big enough to give everyone in a few kilometers fire support. Which matters a lot when fights turn into blasting each other's likely positions and bog down into a slugging match.

    -So much water. Because it's hot. And all those guns and ammo weigh a lot.

    -Even the jungle leads to openings, villages, fields, bald hills, and so forth. And at those moments, all of a sudden your weapons have to be versatile enough to work there. So a "nothing but SMGs and shotguns" approach will probably end poorly.

    -While we're at it, since vehicles are restricted, if you want your mercs to live through the evac, your first aid equipment will have to be on point

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Realistically, 1950s "PMCs" would be using arms from one of two sources - the United States, or the Soviet Union. Any other supply source would be too limited at the time.


    Using US weapons, the primary personal arms would be the M1/M2 Carbine, the M1 Garand, and the M1 Submachine Gun. Heavier firepower would be provided by Browning Automatic Rifles and M1917 Machine guns. These weapons were all available in massive quantities, and were widely distributed.


    Soviet weapons would be PPSh submachine guns and Moisin Nagant rifles, with the submachine guns being far more useful for most people. Heavier firepower would take the form of DP-2 light machine guns or M1910 Maxim guns. These were all being phased out by the Red Army, and were thus widely distributed to potential allies.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by SleepyShadow View Post
    Hey all! I've got a question about jungle warfare. I've got two PMCs clashing in a Bolivia-style jungle circa 1950, and I was curious what the soldiers would be realistically equipped with for the situation. What firearms are best suited to the terrain, and what other gear they'd likely need. Thanks everyone
    In addition to the other stuff said:

    The Jungle is Neutral: it is not your enemy, and it is also not the friend of our enemy. It just is, and every hardship you are suffering, the enemy is as well. its worthwhile remembering this, during the hard, endless and seemingly pointless grind of minor skirmishes that dominate jungle warfare. it often seems like your enemy has all the cards, and is constantly a step ahead. however, the enemy also feels this.

    The Jungle is Worthless. Almost all the time, the jungle itself is not worth fighting over, but rather something in the jungle, like a road to somewhere or a village, is what your fighting over. This means that controlling the jungle is a means to a end, not an end itself, and that affects your strategy. Holding ground for the sake of holding ground is pointless, you hold ground because it enables something (for example, controls access to a river, or dominates a road, etc), and most of the time, your need to hold that ground is transient (once the convoy is passed, theirs no need to control the road, and you can leave). for a PMC thats there to do a job, rather than win a war, this last point needs noting.

    The Front is All Around. while technically true in most environments, the close in nature of jungle warfare means that its almost impossible to create a continuous frontage, and that means units are very likely to interpenetrate during combat. therefore, every unit need to provide its own all round defence, with soldiers watching the flanks and rear of every unit, down to squads level. this dilutes the firepower in any direction, but it means that you always have someone able to fire on a flanking attack. Due to the heavy intermixing of units and short engagement ranges, heavy fire support is often not very useful as your often fighting within the area of effect of a artillery barrage, which is compounded by the navigational difficulties of the jungle meaning that its really hard work out exactly where you are to the degree needed to avoid shelling your own troops. smaller, portable direct fire weapons like grenade launchers are much more useful for fire support.


    Clearings are Death: if you are advancing into contact with an enemy, you can be reasonably certain that any clearings in the jungle you find within a k or two of his front line have been noted and ranged in by any supporting artillery. Do not use them as a convenient site for your support, or your HQ or medical post, because once the fight starts, you can be sure the enemy will be dropping fire on these obvious targets. instead, if you need a open space for something, make it yourself with explosives (wrapping det cord around tree trunks is great at felling trees). likewise, on the defensive, know the locations of any clearings near your location, and other features that the enemy might use (for example a stream, the base of a cliff, ect) and zero in your fire support on these sites for short, high intensity barrages that switch between a few of these sites in rapid succession.

    Supply is Key: The Jungle is just about the most worst terrain to fight on, in terms of equipment degradation. Your rifle will rust, Your bullets will go off, your webbing will rot, and your shoes will come unglued. To keep yourself combat capable in these conditions requires a great deal of effort, training and experience, and a supply chain that can bring fresh kit though the jungle to the front line troops. as soon as you are off the main roads its either donkey loads or man packs of kit, and these supply troops all need supplies as well, which eats into (literally and figurately) your ability to supply the front line troops. control of logistic routes like a navigable river can make or break a campaign by shortening or lengthening the supply chain. Helicopters and airdropped supplies are a thing in 1950, but the Huey and other heavy lift choppers are 10+ years into the future, and contempory choppers have only a limited lift ability.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII


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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Giant version of what often happens with a bullet entering a body.

    Wish their FPS ticker didn't give the misimpression that the projectile is still accelerating outside the barrel.

    Just before where you have it linked, they miss, and a piece of burning propellant has enough KE to blow a chunk out of the first melon.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post

    -Even the jungle leads to openings, villages, fields, bald hills, and so forth. And at those moments, all of a sudden your weapons have to be versatile enough to work there. So a "nothing but SMGs and shotguns" approach will probably end poorly.
    Which is why nobody said "nothing but SMGs and shotguns."

    Carbines and a BAR or Bren are more than adequate for clearings and villages. I emphasized SMGs et al because a WWII/Korean War squad of nine riflemen and a Bren gunner would be much worse for jungle fighting than using that same squad as two teams of 1 SMG, two carbines, and a shotgun, and a squad leader with an SMG plus one guy with a BAR, and everybody has a handful of grenades.
    Last edited by Mike_G; 2019-06-26 at 06:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Realistically, 1950s "PMCs" would be using arms from one of two sources - the United States, or the Soviet Union. Any other supply source would be too limited at the time.
    .
    You are forgetting just how big the British empire was in 1950, and how much surplus equipment there was from The UK to Canada to Australia to India to South Africa.

    Also for example FN in Belgium was gearing up for post-war production, starting the FN FAL. For a PMC there are plenty of options, not just the superpowers

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    Re: Jungle Goodness.

    A lot of this depends on how you envision the PMCs, and where in the 50's you are. Regardless of the technical details...

    -Automatic weapons. At 50 yards with a hard to see enemy and dense foliage, firefights will turn into literally throwing up a wall of lead towards where you think the enemy is. If you have the good fortune to see them first, you'll lose your ability to aim well when they go to ground, so you'll want to smash down their unit with loads of firepower. Hard to miss at that range if you can get a bead, even blasting out long bursts. If you can't see them anymore, you hose where you think they are to stop them from firing and to get lucky. And at Jungle ranges you need a lot less luck to hit while shooting up an area, than say, trying the same thing from across a European farm field

    ...

    -Mortars. These will be popular. Light enough to hump, big enough to give everyone in a few kilometers fire support. Which matters a lot when fights turn into blasting each other's likely positions and bog down into a slugging match.
    Jungle fighting often involved fighting at ranges closer to 15 yards than 50. Which actually meant reduced casualties compared to European fighting. Anyone who didn’t get knocked over in the initial volley went to ground. The amount of cover linked with just how dangerous it was to show yourself meant that there was lots of lead flying around but few available targets. The perception of soldiers who had fought in both environments was that jungle fighting was more deadly, but the casualty returns showed otherwise.

    There is a big problem with mortars in the jungle - overhanging trees. There are plenty of accounts from WWII and VietNam of mortar bombs detonating against overhead trees in the jungle and showering the crew with shrapnel. On top of that if the target is inside the jungle the bombs get set off by the tree tops dropping branches on the position, which is decidedly unpleasant, but less deadly that getting the full shrapnel effect. You can’t just set up your mortar anywhere, as you can in Europe or the desert. You have to find, or make, a suitable clearing. And in a lot of situations mortars can’t cause casualties.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    @ Mike G: Nobody did. I also assume most of the responding posters know that. However, in the effort to prevent a misinterpretation by the OP who is less familiar with the concepts, I was adding that as a clarification.

    @ Pauly: I'll buy the casualty thing for a dollar, particularly as the heavier support weapons are less likely to make themselves felt in a jungle. I'll also buy that the fighting "feels" deadlier to your average guy when you're in at hand grenade and SMG range even if it doesn't. There's probably also the psychological factor that the part of the engagement that is deadly is VERY deadly and feels violently jarring : a sudden chopping down of men on a trail from nowhere, rather than being ground down from a visible source of tracers across a field. There's a reason units break and run when the fight gets close after all.


    Regarding mortars, it'd be less of a "bring the hump gun on patrol", and more of a "set the (60s/81s/what have you)" up in a patrol base to support area operations. So presumably the firing point is stake, measured, cleared, etc. Less direct lay.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Wish their FPS ticker didn't give the misimpression that the projectile is still accelerating outside the barrel.
    My gunnery instructor informed me that that's exactly what happens. It never made sense to me, and I have no source for the info other than one military instructor. But .. it's what he said.

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