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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    I suppose it depends on resources. I don't recall much armour being used by South American cultures, but then I think the Aztecs had access to different textiles and a good coastline. Since they used saltwater to reinforce their armour that might have been the difference between being able to make armour thin enough to be practical in the climate and being unable to meaningfully protect yourself without getting heatstroke. Also the difference between wool and cotton I suppose. The Incas had more of the former than the latter, and the Aztecs had more cotton.

    If they're coastal and more Aztec based then I concede that salt cloth armour makes sense.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    One complicating factor (read: plot hook) with bronze is that the need for both copper- and tin-mining operations makes it more difficult to secure the resources needed to manufacture it.
    The Spanish in Mexico ditched their metal armor, except for helmets, in favor of native quilted armor because of the heat.

    Yes quilted armor is hot and heavy. Metal armor was worse.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    I wonder how long textile armour lasted in a tropical environment, I'd imagine it would slowly rot off the wearer. I'm guessing it's service life wasn't measured in years?

    I'm pretty sure the Egyptians in antiquity wore armour made of cotton, rather than opting for bronze.
    Last edited by Kiero; 2019-07-15 at 04:25 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    About armor: Aztec metallurgy wasn't advanced enough to make metal weapons or armor. The Peruvians knew how to make copper alloys and crafted some weapons and helmets of it (axes, hammers, spears and daggers, but not swords), but they didn't make armor besides some gorgets...

    I think their metallurgy probably wasn't advanced enough...

    But this fantasy culture are the renmants of a more advanced civilization that used iron and steel and probably forged metal armor... so if they have bronze, they will probably try to use it to make armor...

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    One complicating factor (read: plot hook) with bronze is that the need for both copper- and tin-mining operations makes it more difficult to secure the resources needed to manufacture it.
    One of the premises we are given is that they have access to the needed resources to make bronze.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-07-15 at 06:24 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    About armor: Aztec metallurgy wasn't advanced enough to make metal weapons or armor. The Peruvians knew how to make copper alloys and crafted some weapons and helmets of it (axes, hammers, spears and daggers, but not swords), but they didn't make armor besides some gorgets...

    I think their metallurgy probably wasn't advanced enough...

    But this fantasy culture are the renmants of a more advanced civilization that used iron and steel and probably forged metal armor... so if they have bronze, they will probably try to use it to make armor...



    One of the premises we are given is that they have access to the needed resources to make bronze.
    Yeah. They depart from the historical analogues in that respect. A big part of their deal is that the aboleth mastermind is running an experiment about what would happen if silly mortals were "guided with a firm hand toward development." So techniques aren't an issue (although the aboleth himself isn't all that creative, being rather stuck in the past/traditions by his nature.

    And yes, they have plenty of resources. Since my world is only earthlike on the surface[1], some of the exact resource challenges are different, this being one of them. Iron and coal aren't there, but bronze[2] is.

    [1] it's based more on a classical element theory, not modern atomic theory, among other things. No chemical elements or molecules. But the surface phenomena, those observable without Industrial Revolution+ techniques and tools (basically), are the same. Just for different reasons. So they'd use different words to explain very similar behavior, close enough for descriptions to translate pretty well.
    [2] Bronze is an alloy of metals with certain aspects, which are found together in nature somewhat more frequently than copper and tin are on Earth. But the basic idea and the properties are close enough for government work.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    About armor: Aztec metallurgy wasn't advanced enough to make metal weapons or armor. The Peruvians knew how to make copper alloys and crafted some weapons and helmets of it (axes, hammers, spears and daggers, but not swords), but they didn't make armor besides some gorgets...

    I think their metallurgy probably wasn't advanced enough...

    But this fantasy culture are the renmants of a more advanced civilization that used iron and steel and probably forged metal armor... so if they have bronze, they will probably try to use it to make armor...



    One of the premises we are given is that they have access to the needed resources to make bronze.
    The Incas had fairly advanced metallurgy. The primary weapon was the sling, and the best armors against sling shots are ones that can take the impact and spread it out and slow it down. i.e. quilted armor. There are Spanish records from the conquest and revolutions that report Inca slingers being able to kill Spaniards with iron helmets through headshots. The primary sidearm was a mace. Bronze armor doesnít defend that well against maces and slings so there is a good chance the Incas just didnít consider bronze armor worth developing. They did have some ceremonial bronze armor, but that was so thin that it cannot have been intended for warfare.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    [2] Bronze is an alloy of metals with certain aspects, which are found together in nature somewhat more frequently than copper and tin are on Earth. But the basic idea and the properties are close enough for government work.
    Bronze is an alloy of copper and something else. Tin isn't the only potential partner to the copper, one used earlier was arsenic. That's where the myths of the "lame smith" come from, because working with arsenic is very unhealthy. So you've got potential license with what the other material(s) are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    The Incas had fairly advanced metallurgy. The primary weapon was the sling, and the best armors against sling shots are ones that can take the impact and spread it out and slow it down. i.e. quilted armor. There are Spanish records from the conquest and revolutions that report Inca slingers being able to kill Spaniards with iron helmets through headshots. The primary sidearm was a mace. Bronze armor doesnít defend that well against maces and slings so there is a good chance the Incas just didnít consider bronze armor worth developing. They did have some ceremonial bronze armor, but that was so thin that it cannot have been intended for warfare.
    Again, there's bronze and there's bronze. Were the Incas up to the Chinese level of skill with bronze? Greeks and others fought very capable slingers like the Ligurians and Balearics (who used lead bullets, rather than pebbles or stones), and didn't seem to consider bronze armour insufficient.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    my players want to try a sort of net-thrower adapted from a cannon. my world has knowledge of gunpowder with weaponry that could be early 19th century. they wanted to put a net inside a cannon ammunition so that the net would unfold once shot, trap a target (possibly injuring it) and lock itself on the ground with spikes.
    How feasible would that design be? would the net actually unfold and work as advertised?
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Cannons generate a lot of heating in the barrel which would tend to ignite ropes.

    More importantly, the velocities involved in a full charge of powder would rip apart nets which are designed to spread open as they exit the cannon. Or if they are not going to open up, fine, but then they don't do the job.

    Note that chain shot was a thing, where you had two projectiles linked by chains. They could hold together but were used kind of like a giant flying knife to cut down ship rigging or in a pinch, chop attackers in half at close range.

    My guess would be you would need a low power charge, very strong fire-proof rope and lots of experimentation to get a short-range net lobber. I would consider this plausible in a cinematic campaign.

    The bit about self-locking into the ground is too ridiculous for my GM-ing style unless we're using magic or Loony Tunes physics.
    Last edited by Mr Beer; 2019-07-16 at 06:16 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Another thing to consider is the average size of a Napoleonic field piece. A standard 12 lb ball (the heaviest common field cannon) has a diameter of just over 120mm - 4.76 inches. Even if your net was perfectly compacted with absolutely no air gaps, and packed as a cylinder that caught the charge and stayed perfectly intact until shooting out (a sabot, perhaps?), the volume of the net will be a problem. With a two foot long shell (which is already quite large for a barrel less than 6 feet long) you would get....

    Wait for it....

    Half a cubic foot of net. You might give someone a mildly annoying hat?
    Last edited by KineticDiplomat; 2019-07-16 at 11:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Real net launchers the size of a bazooka exist. They fire from compressed air, have a range of around a dozen feet, and are only useful for catching small animals. This is with considerably better materials technology (nylon nets instead of rope ones), a very fine degree of control over the launching pressure, and industrial processes that produce precision far beyond what a medieval cannonmaker could do.


    What your players want to make will not work.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Real net launchers the size of a bazooka exist. They fire from compressed air, have a range of around a dozen feet, and are only useful for catching small animals. This is with considerably better materials technology (nylon nets instead of rope ones), a very fine degree of control over the launching pressure, and industrial processes that produce precision far beyond what a medieval cannonmaker could do.


    What your players want to make will not work.
    That's patently untrue. I mean, it's entirely true that net launchers exist, but the materials available in a fantasy setting are way better than those available in real life. Mithril enhanced with elemental air motes, for instance, are not available to real life engineers.

    Of course, this is the "Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question?!" thread - but since the question in this case is related to a roleplaying game, it seems entirely feasible real world limitations do not apply.

    It seems worth mentioning that, to my knowledge, net launchers have a very specific range at which they work - at all other ranges, they do not work. In other words, say the net full unfolds in 30 feet. At less than 30 feet, it's not unfolded yet, and will not work. And at 30+ range, the net doesn't magically fly, fully unfolded, through the air (unless it's just that - magically). Rather, it will obey the laws of physics, and propably flail about randomly before it tangles up on itself and becomes a useless ball of flying stuff.

    I'm ... not an expert on net launchers. This is knowledge gained from watching youtube videos. So, disclaimer! =)

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    my players want to try a sort of net-thrower adapted from a cannon. my world has knowledge of gunpowder with weaponry that could be early 19th century. they wanted to put a net inside a cannon ammunition so that the net would unfold once shot, trap a target (possibly injuring it) and lock itself on the ground with spikes.
    How feasible would that design be? would the net actually unfold and work as advertised?
    I would go with magic rather than technology for what you are describing.
    - The weapon will have short range if the net is deployed right out of the barrel, so you would need some kind of unfolding mechanism (advanced technology or magic) to hit something more than a few yards away.
    - The net need not to be ruined by the act of firing (either use catapult/ballista instead of cannon, invent an impact and fireproof net, or use magic).
    - You need to hit your target (to hit roll or magic).
    - Once unfolded the net needs to envelop the target (skill check to see if you timed it right or magic).
    - Once enveloped, the net has to lock to the ground (definitely magic).
    - I'm assuming they want to catch soemthing scary with this net, so it needs to be strong enough to hold it (advanced technology or magic).

    I think the queston is if your players aren't trying to stomp ants with orbital warheads.
    The kind of investment of time and energy needed to create such a device could probably be used more economically if their objective is simply to disable someone.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    I'm struggling to find much information on Incan bronzesmithing, but I'm not sure they were all that advanced compared to the likes of the Chinese. They seem to have used copper and arsenical bronze, and while Peru is a source of tin, it doesn't appear to have been in widespread use. The absence of longer blades than knives/spearheads/axeheads is suggestive.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    I'm struggling to find much information on Incan bronzesmithing, but I'm not sure they were all that advanced compared to the likes of the Chinese. They seem to have used copper and arsenical bronze, and while Peru is a source of tin, it doesn't appear to have been in widespread use. The absence of longer blades than knives/spearheads/axeheads is suggestive.
    They made some very interesting art, but their tools and weapons were quite lacking, when compared with Old World's Bronze Age cultures...

    But I think the setting states that the Tlalocana have access to "real" bronze (that is, tin and copper alloys) and they have inherited some of the technical expertise of a more advanced civilization... the only reason they canīt use iron and steel if because monster shenanigans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    Bronze is an alloy of copper and something else. Tin isn't the only potential partner to the copper, one used earlier was arsenic. That's where the myths of the "lame smith" come from, because working with arsenic is very unhealthy. So you've got potential license with what the other material(s) are.
    I just want to point that not all alloys containing copper are bronze... Yes, many copper alloys (with arsenic, phosphor, alluminium...etc.) besides "proper" bronze (which is copper, tin and maybe something else, usually arsenic) are called "bronze", but not all of them...copper-zinc alloy is brass, a copper-nickel alloy is cupronickel, a copper-nickel-tin alloy is gunmetal... etc.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-07-18 at 06:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    They made some very interesting art, but their tools and weapons were quite lacking, when compared with Old World's Bronze Age cultures...

    But I think the setting states that the Tlalocana have access to "real" bronze (that is, tin and copper alloys) and they have inherited some of the technical expertise of a more advanced civilization... the only reason they canīt use iron and steel if because monster shenanigans...
    Yeah. Technically, they'd prefer iron+, and are being fed all sorts of technical information. But them's some seriously nasty critters (and worse stuff). I haven't decided what, exactly, but I know that no one but the mind flayers themselves could walk in there and have any chance, and they'd be challenged for sure. And being focused on efficiency, they figure they can do just fine against the stone-age tribes around them the way they are.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    In unrelated news, they have found a 500 years old tall ship on the bottom of the Baltic Sea. It was a merchant ship with swivel guns, some 17 m long, of uncertain property.



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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    I picked this knife up nearly 20 years ago in Lisbon, Portugal at a bazaar and I've been fascinated to know more about it if anyone can help. I didn't see any maker's mark on it. Wooden handle, wooden scabbard.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Yeah. Technically, they'd prefer iron+, and are being fed all sorts of technical information. But them's some seriously nasty critters (and worse stuff). I haven't decided what, exactly, but I know that no one but the mind flayers themselves could walk in there and have any chance, and they'd be challenged for sure. And being focused on efficiency, they figure they can do just fine against the stone-age tribes around them the way they are.
    Why would they prefer iron, though? Is it a status thing? Are there advantages in terms of creatures vulnerable to iron specifically? It's patently worse in a tropical climate than bronze.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnia View Post
    I picked this knife up nearly 20 years ago in Lisbon, Portugal at a bazaar and I've been fascinated to know more about it if anyone can help. I didn't see any maker's mark on it. Wooden handle, wooden scabbard.

    https://imgur.com/4IIZR2k
    https://imgur.com/EKJUybx
    I can't help you very much with the weapon, but the maker's mark (assuming it isn't a mass produced item and a blacksmith actually put it on) would normally be on the tang of the blade (the part that extends into the handle).

    I don't advise trying to take off the handle to have a look though!

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    Why would they prefer iron, though? Is it a status thing? Are there advantages in terms of creatures vulnerable to iron specifically? It's patently worse in a tropical climate than bronze.
    Because they have the tech to make really good steel, just not the raw materials. And from what I understand, steel > bronze ~ iron (at their fully-developed states).
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    So, I've been working on this question for a while, and have had help from the thread before- but there are aspects I still want to nail down.

    I have a character that I'm trying to portray as a tactical genius, far ahead of his time. The thing is, from what the thread has said, a lot of the genius ideas that make or break a war come down to logistics; something that this character already has a leg up on from other factors. If I were to leave it to that, he'd just look like he was more effective merely because of those other factors, not due to any personal skill as a tactitian.

    I know part of it also comes down to an understanding of long-term strategy through important capture points, unexpected targets, and so on that are too lengthy and too context-specific to really summarize here.

    What I want to know are what kind of small-scale tactics, methods of conducting battles and skirmishes in a classical heroic fantasy landscape that would really differentiate him as the new Sun Tzu?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    The answer is that small-scale fighting wouldnít. Even in the modern day with less focus on The Great Captains and more on small unit combat, the likes of Skorzeny and Bagnold as small unit masters are not universally known. In the muscle powered era, strength of sinew and ferocity of character was worth more for small unit fame than tactical acumen. You get sagas about heroes and generals, but little in between until the modern day.

    Part of this is because small unit combat is far less cerebral. Itís having an eye for terrain and intuitively knowing how it will play out. Itís understanding the craft of war at the spear-meets body level, and then being able to make quick decisions with little and often fuzzy information on how that is going to apply. Itís knowing your troops and trying to have a feel for theirs. Itís reading morale, and shock, and fatigue and trying to put it all together how that will work today.

    Itís having the feel and knowledge about men, morale, weapons, and terrain to inform a decision; the quickness of mind to pick a decision while tired and nervous with no information formally presented, the quality of communication to tell people what they want to do in a way that hopefully wonít screw up what your decision actually was, having the mental courage to decide firmly what to do, and having the physical courage to see it done with yourself on the board.

    Which is an entirely different skill set than that which can be recorded in sage books and broken into clean intellectual lines, or the skills to efficiently manage an organiation. And being good at one in no way means youíll be good at the others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon Falcon View Post
    What I want to know are what kind of small-scale tactics, methods of conducting battles and skirmishes in a classical heroic fantasy landscape that would really differentiate him as the new Sun Tzu?
    The obvious one would be about knowing your enemy and yourself. If your character knows the resistance, immunities, and vulnerabilities of every monster you face, and communicates these to the party in a timely manner, it will go a long way to making him seem clever. If he has thoguht ahead and has ways to handle these things effectively, so much the better.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Because they have the tech to make really good steel, just not the raw materials. And from what I understand, steel > bronze ~ iron (at their fully-developed states).
    It's not that simple; and well-worked bronze is better than iron and the lowest grades of steel. Even then it depends what you're using it for, and again the climate matters. Steel rusts, bronze is much more durable in a moist environment.

    What's the point of making equipment that rusts within a year or so, when bronze will last for years?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    It's not that simple; and well-worked bronze is better than iron and the lowest grades of steel. Even then it depends what you're using it for, and again the climate matters. Steel rusts, bronze is much more durable in a moist environment.

    What's the point of making equipment that rusts within a year or so, when bronze will last for years?
    The materials for steel are very easy to come by, though. There's iron pretty much all over the planet, whereas copper is much rarer and more localized. If you're equipping whole armies, you are likely to go with some variation of iron over a variation of bronze, even if it has its drawbacks. In the case of 'fully developed steel', presumably this includes full knowledge of how to take care of your steel and keep it from rusting unduly. It's not like the conquistadors switched to bronze in the tropics on arrival.

    Edit: Just to put some numbers on it, about 5% of earth's crust is iron. Copper makes up less than 0.007%. That makes iron more than 700 times as common as copper.
    Last edited by hymer; 2019-07-23 at 07:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon Falcon View Post
    So, I've been working on this question for a while, and have had help from the thread before- but there are aspects I still want to nail down.

    I have a character that I'm trying to portray as a tactical genius, far ahead of his time. The thing is, from what the thread has said, a lot of the genius ideas that make or break a war come down to logistics; something that this character already has a leg up on from other factors. If I were to leave it to that, he'd just look like he was more effective merely because of those other factors, not due to any personal skill as a tactitian.

    I know part of it also comes down to an understanding of long-term strategy through important capture points, unexpected targets, and so on that are too lengthy and too context-specific to really summarize here.

    What I want to know are what kind of small-scale tactics, methods of conducting battles and skirmishes in a classical heroic fantasy landscape that would really differentiate him as the new Sun Tzu?
    Sun-Tzu didn't much care about small scale tactics. His strategies were aimed at maneuver warfare which emphasized logistics and treated the troops as commodities to be kept in line with draconian discipline and organization that took advantage of pre-existing ties and motivators. It's easy to discount the skill it takes to do logistics well. You have to be able to compare multiple scenarios involving complex factors rapidly and effectively.

    Do you send a troop of cavalry to assault that village which is likely to be a lightly defended supply depot? The war started on day x, the enemy probably started moving their troops on day y, which means they would be running out of supplies on day z, which means they will probably have a supply convoy at this location by day a. Of the troops at your command you've got three that might be able to do get there in time. Only one of those could certainly accomplish the mission but if the job is done well enough it might effectively eliminate one of the enemies main maneuver formations for a week which would allow your forces to concentrate against the other formation and inflict serious damage upon it. Lots of factors and people tend to discount this ability and be wowed by the guy who put his archers on top of a small hill behind some hasty fortifications and let the opposing forces charge headlong at him instead of cutting off his retreat and starving him into submission.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon Falcon View Post
    So, I've been working on this question for a while, and have had help from the thread before- but there are aspects I still want to nail down.

    I have a character that I'm trying to portray as a tactical genius, far ahead of his time. The thing is, from what the thread has said, a lot of the genius ideas that make or break a war come down to logistics; something that this character already has a leg up on from other factors. If I were to leave it to that, he'd just look like he was more effective merely because of those other factors, not due to any personal skill as a tactitian.

    I know part of it also comes down to an understanding of long-term strategy through important capture points, unexpected targets, and so on that are too lengthy and too context-specific to really summarize here.

    What I want to know are what kind of small-scale tactics, methods of conducting battles and skirmishes in a classical heroic fantasy landscape that would really differentiate him as the new Sun Tzu?
    Tactics simply aren't that important or complex. We'd need to see exactly what kind of troops you're working with to be sure, but pretty much all tactics boil down to trying to attack somebody in the side or rear, sometimes creating a new side or rear to attack. Real genius is in the logistics and support factors, and anybody with knowledge will absolutely credit victories to those - and hail the victor as a genius for building up such a difficult and vital arm.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    one of the commentaries on Sun Tzu said that a truly great commanders were so good at stacking the odds in their favour, that many people did not recognise their greatness, because all their victories were "easy" ones with everything In their favour.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
    But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Tactics simply aren't that important or complex. We'd need to see exactly what kind of troops you're working with to be sure, but pretty much all tactics boil down to trying to attack somebody in the side or rear, sometimes creating a new side or rear to attack. Real genius is in the logistics and support factors, and anybody with knowledge will absolutely credit victories to those - and hail the victor as a genius for building up such a difficult and vital arm.
    I profoundly disagree with this. For example in the Napoleon era it was the 2 Master tacticians, Napoleon and Wellington that dominated the battlefields. Now depending on era and equipment there can be more or less scope for tactics. Even in WWI which is famous for being non-tactical tactical geniuses such as Monash and Rommel (the same one who did alright for himself 20 years later) still stood out.

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