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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Necroing is frowned upon, what is people's opinion on sneaky links to show newer users a pretty cool homebrew?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Necroing is frowned upon, what is people's opinion on sneaky links to show newer users a pretty cool homebrew?

    On the opinion of sneaky links, nothing is sneakier than a spoiler with a title but no information.

    Like this: (You have to reply to see the url)


    As for the legitimacy of sneaky links to old threads, that's totally fine.

    On the homebrew itself, it's not bad. It's a bit too focused on cantrips for me, though. I feel like cantrips should allow diversity, but enhancing them so effectively, at such a low level, will result in one getting spammed over the course of a character's career. Be prepared to hear the word "Firebolt" a lot.

    I do like the reverse Warlock progression. That is, your level 1 choices are a mostly utility gain, and your level 3 choices are your narrative/playstyle gain. Which is the inverse of how Warlocks are built.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-03 at 03:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    I like Gishes, but feel that there should be more than just one way to go about it.

    Quick thread-necro question:
    How old is too old?
    More than 2 "pages" on the Forum?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-03 at 02:53 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I like Gishes, but feel that there should be more than just one way to go about it.

    Quick thread-necro question:
    How old is too old?
    More than 2 "pages" on the Forum?
    45 days. Here's the thread for the forum rules.
    My most liked class, thematically, is the Artificer. Make free items! (fail by RAW to)Hold up the setting! Have access to every magic item...
    My most liked class, mechanically, is the Bard. I sing the enemy to death! (at level 21)I talk you into a suicidal fanatic! I need to cheese rules that make me sing as I fight or talk to get things done...

    I prefer t2 over anything else, because t2 lets you become anything. I think Psionics is more versatile than magic.

    Homebrewer's sig

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    45 days
    Thanks.

    I tried looking in that thread, but most likely missed it, due to being too much of a hurry. Using phone on busses is hard for me to do.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    -snip-
    MoG you crazy genius, you!

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    MoleMage's Avatar

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Thanks.

    I tried looking in that thread, but most likely missed it, due to being too much of a hurry. Using phone on busses is hard for me to do.
    The relevant text (bolding emphasis mine):

    Thread Necromancy
    Bringing a thread back from "the dead." If a thread hasn't been posted in within the last 45 days, don't reply to it. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss the subject (you are welcome to link to the old thread). If you think it would be better to resurrect an old thread, PM a moderator for that subforum and wait for approval. The original poster of a creation in Homebrew (and only that poster) may revive a creation beyond the 45 day threshold without prior Moderator approval.
    Signature currently down for maintenance. Expected completion March 22, 3046.

    Spoiler: Contest Awards
    Show

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    @MoleMage: Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    On the homebrew itself, it's not bad. It's a bit too focused on cantrips for me, though. I feel like cantrips should allow diversity, but enhancing them so effectively, at such a low level, will result in one getting spammed over the course of a character's career. Be prepared to hear the word "Firebolt" a lot.
    I'll admit, I have kinda ignored a lot of Homebrew Warlock "improvement" attempts.

    First, because I don't really see any need for that.
    For me, just bringing in some of the 3x Invocations was enough.

    And Second, I actually had to use "Houserules" to reduce the Hexblade's front-loaded "power", so that it wasn't the "most potent" (especially when combined with Rogues; Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard; and of course: Paladins) Gish option.
    But, that's kinda a separate thing, SooÖ...

    MoG: I do like the reverse Warlock progression. That is, your level 1 choices are a mostly utility gain, and your level 3 choices are your narrative/playstyle gain. Which is the inverse of how Warlocks are built.
    Sadly, I'd need a level-by-level display ("Regular" vs "Reverse") to compare to really understand what you mean by that.

    ****
    For my reference, here are the Gishes that I currently know about.

    "Single Class"
    Eldritch Knight.
    Arcane Trickster
    Hexblade
    Bladesinger
    (?) War Magic Wizard
    Druids with "Homebrewed" Barkskin

    Special
    War* Cleric
    (*any Domain with Heavy Armor)

    Mt Dwarf or Elf Wizard
    Mt Dwarf or Elf Sorcerer
    Mt Dwarf or Elf Bard
    (usually Valor, sometimes Swords)

    "Multiclassed"
    Fighter 2/Wizard x
    (Funny thing is, I rarely see this "Classic Gish".)

    Palalock (Hexadin, etc)
    Soradin
    Bardadin (usually Dex based)
    SorHexer

    Fighter 2/Cleric (more Weapons, Action Surge)

    Fighter 2/Druid (more Weapons, Action Surge)
    (Usually needs "custom armor")
    (Usually not Moon, since Extra Attack and Multi-attack don't combine)

    Ranger 3**/Druid***
    (** usually Hunter or Monster Slayer.
    *** Usually Moon Druid)
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-17 at 07:25 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Sindeloke's Avatar

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    It's a bit too focused on cantrips for me, though. I feel like cantrips should allow diversity, but enhancing them so effectively, at such a low level, will result in one getting spammed over the course of a character's career. Be prepared to hear the word "Firebolt" a lot.
    It's literally "cantrips, the class." There's nothing else even there, the whole point of it is to let people spam firebolt every turn and have that be effective. It's the magical equivalent of the fighter, which is designed to let people spam longsword every turn and have that be effective. If a warmage is a firebolt bot the class is working as intended.

    It's also wildly out of date. I suppose I should post the current revision and bump the thread.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    The Mod Wonder: Homebrew gets some special consideration, as noted; if I want to necro my Heartbreaker setting that I posted back in 2011, I can do that... though I really shouldn't, because there's nothing original in it. Additionally, if you have something you absolutely HAVE to have Necro'd, PM one of the Mods of the section (like me, Glyphstone, and Vaynor for Homebrew), and we can do it if we think it's warranted (chances are, it is not).

    Alternatively, if you want to riff off something someone posted in the long-dead past, feel free to say "Hey, here's this post by Mark Hall for a Marshal class in Hackmaster. I've quoted it below but want to suggest some revisions on it, in my second post."
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2019-06-06 at 10:14 AM.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    API Anthology 1 from Drivethru RPG.
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Gishes tend to be Fighter/Mage.

    But, how often do you see Divine Gishes?
    I'm not counting straight Paladin or Ranger.

    Paladin/Cleric (Domain, other than War?)
    Ranger/Druid.

    Other?
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Gishes tend to be Fighter/Mage.

    But, how often do you see Divine Gishes?
    I'm not counting straight Paladin or Ranger.

    Paladin/Cleric (Domain, other than War?)
    Ranger/Druid.

    Other?
    I think the existence of the ranger, paladin, even the cleric themselves obviates the need for "gish" builds on the divine side. If I want to play a fighting divine caster, that's pretty much the default. The odd ones are things like the Archivist, which ISN'T gishy.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    API Anthology 1 from Drivethru RPG.
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    So, is Sorcerer the best Gish option with Barbarian?

    Since you can't cast (or Concentrate on) spells while Raging?

    As my signature says, I don't have a Playtesting Group.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    So, is Sorcerer the best Gish option with Barbarian?

    Since you can't cast (or Concentrate on) spells while Raging?

    As my signature says, I don't have a Playtesting Group.
    What edition? I mean, that's what a lot of it comes down it. I could see a Warlock dip being great in 5e. With 3 levels of Fiend Pact of the Blade, you can start every fight with some some temporary HP (Fiendish Vigor), summon a weapon whenever you need, and you can get more temporary HP every time you kill something. On top of that, you've got a few spells, some cantrips, and you wind up pretty gishy, even if you're just a 17/3.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    API Anthology 1 from Drivethru RPG.
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Opps. Was 5e.
    I was thinking Sorcerer mostly for Empowered CC and AoE at higher level, with maybe some ranged spells at lower level, and going Raging Barbarian for melee.

    Yeah, Fiend has cool effects, but the Fluff is hard for me to accept. Most likely just a personal quirk.

    I was thinking Hexblade/blade, drop Hexblade Curse then Rage.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-19 at 09:16 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Gishes tend to be Fighter/Mage.

    But, how often do you see Divine Gishes?
    I'm not counting straight Paladin or Ranger.

    Paladin/Cleric (Domain, other than War?)
    Ranger/Druid.

    Other?
    Land Druid 3, Long Death Monk 17. Max out Wisdom instead of Dexterity, focus on Shilellagh and Magic Stone. Gain massive THP in combat, and have a really powerful stunning strike.

    Arcane Cleric 19, Ranger 1. Ranger is for the Whip, which you combine with Spell Sniper to afflict Booming Blade on targets with Reach.

    Tempest Cleric + Storm Cleric makes a solid Gish, storming around, pushing enemies willy nilly.

    There's always the Moon Druid, who can cast something like Barkskin before shifting.

    And don't forget about the Nature Cleric Dwarf, who can dump Strength and wear Heavy Armor with a Shillelagh weapon. Maybe pack on Polearm Master with a quarterstaff and shield for the hell of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Land Druid 3, Long Death Monk 17. Max out Wisdom instead of Dexterity, focus on Shilellagh and Magic Stone. Gain massive THP in combat, and have a really powerful stunning strike.
    I would have gone Shepard Druid.

    Arcane Cleric 19, Ranger 1. Ranger is for the Whip, which you combine with Spell Sniper to afflict Booming Blade on targets with Reach.
    Tempest Cleric + Storm Cleric* makes a solid Gish, storming around, pushing enemies willy nilly.
    Did you mean Storm Sorcerer?😁

    There's always the Moon Druid, who can cast something like Barkskin before shifting
    And don't forget about the Nature Cleric Dwarf, who can dump Strength and wear Heavy Armor with a Shillelagh weapon. Maybe pack on Polearm Master with a quarterstaff and shield for the hell of it.
    Very nice list
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I would have gone Shepard Druid.
    Land Druid-Coast gets you:

    • Short Rest Spell Slots. Now you can get three level 2 spell slots per day. Or you can cast Absorb Elements x2 more times.
    • Mirror Image, a great non-concentration defense spell, perfect for a Monk with moderate Dexterity (as Mirror Images benefit from Dex).
    • Misty Step, a short-range, Bonus Action teleport that lets you get anywhere.



    Grasslands is another solid pick, but only if you plan on being stealthy or supportive. A bit more Concentration focused, so it'd be better for a Monk that's in melee less often (like a Four Elements Monk).

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Very nice list
    Thanks a bunch, man!

    One I forgot to include is a sort of odd build, similar to the Druid/Monk build, but going Land Druid 3, Ranger X, grabbing Polearm Master to enchant a Shillelagh with while using the Dueling Fighting style with a shield.

    Someone approaches you, 1d10 + 2 + Wisdom damage, and hit them 3x on your turn. You can do something similar as a Nature Cleric and a single level into Fighter.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-20 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    @Man_Over_Game

    This is fun!

    I thought all Druids got the spell recovery, so just player selection on what is regained matters.

    I'd say that Mirror Image and Conjure Animals mostly balance.

    Sure Mirror Image gives good defense, but only against 3 successful attacks.

    While up to eight CR 1/4 spiders (a few extra HP each is nice, but not a huge factor) means that foes need to fight past these, and worry about poison. Any surviving Summoned animals last an hour, for possible extra Encounters.

    I'll grant Misty Step being a boon, since changing position during a fight is always an advantage.
    ********
    I actually don't see too many Land Druids in my games, with lots of Moon Druids.

    Speaking of:
    Moon Druid/Long Death Monk
    What's the best split?
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    @Man_Over_Game

    This is fun!

    I thought all Druids got the spell recovery, so just player selection on what is regained matters.

    I'd say that Mirror Image and Conjure Animals mostly balance.

    Sure Mirror Image gives good defense, but only against 3 successful attacks.

    While up to eight CR 1/4 spiders (a few extra HP each is nice, but not a huge factor) means that foes need to fight past these, and worry about poison. Any surviving Summoned animals last an hour, for possible extra Encounters.

    I'll grant Misty Step being a boon, since changing position during a fight is always an advantage.
    ********
    I actually don't see too many Land Druids in my games, with lots of Moon Druids.

    Speaking of:
    Moon Druid/Long Death Monk
    What's the best split?
    That's pretty hard, as it really depends on what your DM says about allowing you to treat Moon shape attacks as unarmed strikes (so you can use your Martial Arts from Monk).

    If you can treat your animal attacks as unarmed strikes, I'd go Druid 17, Monk 3, or Druid 16 and Monk 4 if you want to max out your Wisdom and get some feats in there. You can't use Multiattack with Extra Attack, so going Monk 5+ would result in a wasted level if you're focusing on druid forms.

    If your DM doesn't allow you to treat beast attacks as unarmed strikes, then you'd probably want to go Monk 18/Druid 2, or Monk 17/Druid 3. Druid here would be used for an extra burst of HP, as you can shift twice per short rest and get some solid HP out of it. Since Extra Attack and Multiattack don't mix, you don't want to put too much stock into the Druid forms, and mostly rely on them for some burst survivability.

    --------------------------------------

    On the topic of Mirror Image, do keep in mind that:
    • You're a Monk with Wisdom + Dexterity for your AC. You can afford to take a hit once in a while.
    • The enemy still has to hit the mirror image to make it go away. There's a chance that they could miss the image altogether due to your moderate Dex.
    • Monks can Dodge as a bonus action, and some DMs may rule that your Dodge applies to Mirror Images.


    The goal of Mirror Images on a Monk isn't to make you invincible, but be able to avoid taking lethal damage.

    Because of Hit Dice, you really only need to worry about hitting 0 HP. As long as that doesn't happen, you can Short Rest most of your worries away. Mirror Image, combined with your Long Death THP regeneration, means that you'll be fairly tanky.

    An interesting coincidence that I just realized is that Mirror Image happens to be weak against swarms (who attack multiple times) but strong against bosses (who make strong, singular attacks). The Long Death THP regeneration is the opposite, regenerating more THP against swarms (more deaths = more triggers), but much less so against bosses. Combining both means that you're well equipped for either scenario.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-21 at 11:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Blasted phone! Deleted everything!

    Spoiler: Moon Druid
    Show

    I tend to not really see much benefit to this subclass.

    Sure, starting out with access to CR 1 beast, and can Shift as a Bonus Action is cool.

    But there's only a small difference between the CR 0.5 Ape and the CR 1 Brown Bear.

    With Deinonychus being the "coolest" CR 1 option. Velociraptor is CR 1/4.

    Anything beyond the CR 3 Scorpion isn't impressive. The Scorpion's 7d10 HD and AC 15 combination is hard to beat.

    The CR 5 Triceratops is AC 13 and 10d12 HD.
    Gore +9 melee.
    Trample: if the Triceratops has moved 20+ feet and hit with Gore attack (+9 melee and 4d8+6) the target must make DC 13 Str Save or be knocked prone.
    If failed, the Triceratops makes a Stomp attack (+9 melee for 3d10+6) as a bonus action.

    ****
    But, I haven't checked everything, yet.

    But - Swimming Beasts don't unlock until 4th level Druid, and Hunter Shark is the only CR 2. Nothing until CR 4 Killer Whale, and then the CR 5 Great Shark.
    Brontosaurus, I don't see being a swimmer.

    And - Flying Beast aren't unlocked until 8th level Druid, and caps out at CR 1 Giant Eagle and Giant Vulture.


    As for when I'm the DM, I'm really not sure about allowing Martial Arts damage to Wild Shapes.

    Like take the 16 Moon Druid/4 Monk split you suggested.

    The Moon Druid gets CR 5 beasts.
    And only up to 8th level spells.

    Since the RAW isn't clear (at least to me) than the Monk still gets 1d8 Martial Arts damage.

    So, say Giant Crocodile.
    Bite: +8 melee 3d10+5 damage
    Average = 25 damage

    Tail: +8 melee 2d6+5 damage
    Average 13 damage.

    Or, (Bite, most likely) one attack Plus two Unarmed attacks for 1d8 damage each. (+10 damage)

    Multi-attack bite/tail = 38 damage per round.

    Bite plus Flurry (extra tail attacks, but only doing Martial Arts damage?) = 35 damage per round, for up to 16 rounds per Short Rest.

    I don't see a problem with allowing Martial Arts damages, but I could be missing something.

    (+1d8 to Bite? Ok, add 5 damage average for 40 damage for 16 rounds)

    Not really over the top, especially when compared to the 20th level Fighter doing up to five attacks for 1d8 + (5) Str each (50 damage average), not counting Subclass additions, magic weapon bonuses, or energy damages.
    Twice.
    Per Short Rest.

    Sure, the Fighter's output per round after those Action Surges is "limited" to four attacks that only do 40 damage, average.

    Assuming the target survives that long
    Rogue: 1d8+5 +10d6 = 50 DPR?
    Plus Arcane Caster 7d8 (35) energy damage times fourÖ.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    The reason people have interest in the Moon Druid isn't about damage, but HP.

    Wild Shape happens to refresh on a Short Rest. Assuming you have a Short Rest between each fight, and your level 2 Wild Shape forms have about 25 HP, that's 50 HP per fight...at level 2.

    A Barbarian at the same level would have about 25 HP, effectively doubled when Rage is applicable. The Moon Druid can regularly take as much damage in a fight as a Barbarian could throughout the entire day. That's before including the fact that:
    • You have full casting options
    • You are a 1d8 with medium armor once the Wild Shapes have ran out (an additional 16 HP).


    People often compare the Moon Druid to a martial combatant, but they always forget to consider the fact that the Druid is still as powerful of a caster as a Cleric. Or, put another way, you are as tanky as a Barbarian, as good of a caster as a Cleric, your only weakness is that you can't be both at the same time.

    The only Moon Druids I've seen have always been reckless murderhobos who stay in Wild Shape the entire time (and do just fine), but I secretly worry that a halfway decent player will play one and just turn the table upside down.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-24 at 11:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    @Man_Over_Game:
    Ah.
    Are we that rare?

    I suppose that I might be one of those people.
    (I'd love to join your table, but the odds of that happening aren't likely ☹️)

    I know lots of people think Gish are supposed to be "powerful", but I've always seen that it's actually meant for versatility.

    ****
    I mean when I'm the Player, I'm not going to assume that my PC is going to be able to get a Short Rest to "refresh" something.
    As such, I'll only use what is needed to help the party get to the BBEG, and then Nova!

    ****
    To me, having extra HP isn't as effective without good AC. Especially at High Tier.

    When the Baddy (even solo) can take hits from 4-6 high damage PCs for more than three rounds, and can hit AC 30 with at least a 50% chance for at least a tenth of a PC's max health (except maybe Sor/Wiz, which might be 1/4 max HP) per hit.

    See, the BarBearian is actually designed to get in the face of the Enemies, where they rely on Friends to survive, but (mostly just) help them recover.

    ****
    Which is why, For Moon Druids, I don't see any value in Beasts past the CR 3 Scorpion.

    The rare case of either Crocodile (swamps) or Shark (oceans) being needed, their CR 5 counterparts might come in handy.

    Sure, the CR 6 Mammoth might get more HP, but (for me) it's not worth sacrificing a 2nd level slot for Barkskin to increase the Mammoth's AC - except maybe against a small mob of Mooks.

    In which case I burned a 2nd level spell slot, and used a Wild Shape, that I might not get back; unless (1) I can convince the rest of the Party to take a break for an hour (2) we can find a safe place to 'camp' and (3) There isn't a Time Limit to achieve our Goal (Goals with Time Limits is usually the case, for most of the games I play in).

    But then, if I know there are enough PCs that can use a short rest to "refresh" stuff (Warlocks usually, but there are some other classes) and we don't need to worry about #3, sure.

    The 'extra hp' that the Mammoth gives, is burned up way too fast, since it's so easy to hit, and Barkskin isn't enough of an AC boost to justify losing a 2nd level slot.

    ****
    Am I incorrect in thinking that the AC 15 Scorpion is actually a better use of Wild Shape?
    With better AC for free means almost the same staying power as the Mammoth's pure HP boost?

    Personality, I'm going 18 levels of Druid, just to be able to cast spells while being a Squirrel, Bear, or Scorpion.

    I suppose I could try and sit down and do Druid vs Druid comparing, to determine "the best option".

    But, I tend to see too many "situational conditions" for any Class, for that to be practical.
    (Amazingly enough, I actually don't like doing White Room theory crafting; I just don't have a Playtesting Group.)

    And, I'm usually more concerned with playing the Character, where (Race, Background) Class/Subclass are only small changes as to what they have available.

    Plus, I really have problems staying focused on doing such comparisons alone.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    @Man_Over_Game:
    Sure, the CR 6 Mammoth might get more HP, but (for me) it's not worth sacrificing a 2nd level slot for Barkskin to increase the Mammoth's AC - except maybe against a small mob of Mooks.
    So...don't.

    As you mentioned before, the 50% hit chance for your AC to deflect a boss is ludicrously high, and could be upwards to being 30 AC.

    So let's say we have a boss that deals 40 damage on a hit. With Barkskin (AC 16), the boss has an 80% chance to hit. Against the Mammoth by default (AC 13), the boss has a 95% chance to hit.

    Against the Barkskin AC, the boss will deal an average of 32 damage per hit (based on hit chance)
    Against the default AC, the boss will deal an average of 38 damage per hit.

    With a Mammoth's 126 HP, that means the Mammoth would drop to 0 HP after 4 (3.9) attacks vs. 3 (3.3) attacks.
    A Scorpion, with 15 AC and 50 HP, he'd be gone in almost 1.

    Keep in mind, a lvl 15 Barbarian with 14 AC would have around 160 HP. With Rage, that's an effective 320 HP. Using two Mammoth transformations is about 250. Not quite the same level of durability of a Barbarian, but very, very close.

    Personally, I like combining the two. Tack on a single level of Barbarian and now you're better than both. An effective 500 HP Wall-O'-Meat for your enemy to deal with.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-25 at 11:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    So...don't.

    As you mentioned before, the 50% hit chance for your AC to deflect a boss is ludicrously high, and could be upwards to being 30 AC.

    So let's say we have a boss that deals 40 damage on a hit. With Barkskin (AC 16), the boss has an 80% chance to hit. Against the Mammoth by default (AC 13), the boss has a 95% chance to hit.

    Against the Barkskin AC, the boss will deal an average of 32 damage per hit (based on hit chance)
    Against the default AC, the boss will deal an average of 38 damage per hit.

    With a Mammoth's 126 HP, that means the Mammoth would drop to 0 HP after 4 (3.9) attacks vs. 3 (3.3) attacks.
    A Scorpion, with 15 AC and 50 HP, he'd be gone in almost 1.
    I really do appreciate your willingness to post these things. It helps me a lot.
    Thanks!

    Since all I care about is the extra HP with Mammoth, I'd most likely accept the extra hit chance and save the 2nd level slot for an extra spell for non-Shifted combat: say, Moonbeam.

    To me, there's not much difference between AC 15 Scorpion and AC 16 Mammoth, as far as Hit Chance goes.

    I suppose that also depends on if the Druid had to make Concentration checks or lose the Barkskin.
    In which case even more of a gape, where the Scorpion doesn't suddenly lose AC.

    I guess the Scorpion's poison (damage and condition) on a successful hit, also plays into my calculations.

    Keep in mind, a lvl 15 Barbarian with 14 AC would have around 160 HP. With Rage, that's an effective 320 HP.

    Using two Mammoth transformations is about 250. Not quite the same level of durability of a Barbarian, but very, very close.
    So, I can see a lot of new players wondering why they would choose anything other than Moon, for Druid.

    Where the best they can get is a CR 1 beast with maybe AC 13 and 30 Hp.

    Twice for maybe an extra 60 HP per fight.

    But, that can just enough to keep the focus off the a party member, for everyone to take the nasty down.

    Plus, my advice for those really is, don't Multiclass.
    20th level Archdruid's unlimited shifting and casting spells at the same time, can really pay off.

    Spoiler
    Show
    And yes, I'm aware of the standard "advice" to only use other Druids if a Controller/Healer is needed in the party, and use Wild Shape for Out of Combat scouting.

    But, as a DM, I find that the potential for the Scouts (Rogue, Ranger, Shadow Monk, Shifted Druid - I'm sure there are more, but you get my point) to suddenly find themselves alone in a combat situation (and nowhere near their Allies) to be higher than what most Players believe.

    I could make comments, but am not sure if they apply to the topic, or if anyone wants to read my Rambling/Rants.


    Personally, I like combining the two. Tack on a single level of Barbarian and now you're better than both. An effective 500 HP Wall-O'-Meat for your enemy to deal with.
    Unless I really need the Spellcasting while Wild Shaped, and Since I don't need more than 16 levels in Moon Druid, I'd go for 4 levels in either BarBearian (for Boss smashing) or Long Death Monk (for Mook punching).

    Druid 19/Barbarian 1
    CR 4 AC 13 Mammoth = 500 HP
    But only against physical (P/S/B) attacks.

    Moon/Bear
    CR 5 AC 13 Triceratops = 360 HP
    Against everything but Psychic damage.

    Better?
    Moon 14/Bear 3/Monk 3
    CR 4 AC 12 Elephant = 304 HP
    Above with tHP from smacking Swarms and Mooks down.

    ****
    Almost as wacky as the Soradin, or Hexadin with Hexblade's Curse?

    I love seeing what combinations can be made, and how effective they can be.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Don't forget that Unarmored Defense is applied to your new form. So you'd get either Constitution + Dex from Barbarian, or Wisdom + Dex from Monk.

    Most people choose beast forms for their HP, so you're usually a form with really high Constitution, so I prefer suggesting the Barbarian. The Monk version does provide consistency, since you can max out your Wisdom to have your AC calculations be 15 + Dexterity.

    I don't really consider the Rage's weakness (of only applying to weapon damage) to be all that bad. Not only are those the most common damage types of most creatures (most demons, especially, deal high weapon damage), but most concerns where Rage isn't applicable (like with mages or against flying targets) are the exact kinds of targets that the Druid counters. When your shapeshifting fails, just conjure a thunder storm and smite your foes from long range. Or even do so while Wildshaped (cast, then transform) to get you an extra cushion of HP while doing so.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Don't forget that Unarmored Defense is applied to your new form. So you'd get either Constitution + Dex from Barbarian, or Wisdom + Dex from Monk.
    (edited for emphasis)

    Is it or?
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  28. - Top - End - #28
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    (edited for emphasis)

    Is it or?
    That is correct. One particularly odd thing about the unarmored defense is that you can only ever get one of them: the first one.

    Specifically because: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class." PHB, p.164.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-25 at 03:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If you like Gishes, and have been less than 4 years on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    That is correct. One particularly odd thing about the unarmored defense is that you can only ever get one of them: the first one.

    Specifically because: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class." PHB, p.164.
    So, just to (metaphorically) bodycheck any Rule Lawyers, it's only one of those two, ever?

    Not, like, switching to whatever is better?


    I hadn't thought of the UD being applied.

    I see lots of good Con in Beast Forms, but not any real Dex bonuses.
    Good thing the Druid keeps their Wis.
    Not many Forms can match the Monk's AC 15+Dex.

    I haven't checked all the Beasts, but don't really see anything over +3 Con, so far.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed

    Without a Playtest Group - I'm Forever Stuck in the White Room.

    I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    ◊ This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.

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