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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Interesting shape. Not all crowns are that shape in the comic.

    Same crown as Xykon's formerly Master Fryon's?
    Last edited by Lexible; 2019-06-04 at 09:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Probably a coincidence.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    I assume that it is a stylised depiction of a crown for asthetic purposes, and has no significance, nor relation to Master Fyron and Xykon.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Probably a coincidence.
    Certainly a coincidence.

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    Last edited by Caerulea; 2019-06-04 at 09:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    I assume that it is a stylised depiction of a crown for asthetic purposes, and has no significance, nor relation to Master Fyron and Xykon.

    Edit:
    Certainly a coincidence.

    —Caerulea
    You never know....
    (except this is almost definetly a coincidence.)
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Certainly a coincidence.
    Why certainly?

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    You never know....
    (except this is almost definetly a coincidence.)
    Perhaps those large figures between a human and dwarf in proportion carved around the council room will come to life and defeat the vampires and help the Nightcrawler achieve his dream of becoming a therapist. Hey, you never know. It could happen.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexible View Post
    Interesting shape. Not all crowns are that shape in the comic.
    I'm guessing it's Dvalin's symbol, based on Dvalin's high priest's hat.

    Of course, Dvalin's title is "First King of the Dwarves", so the symbol could very well be a stylized representation of his earthly OotS-world-ly crown...and I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that Fyron had a demigod's crown on display at his library.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Jasidof is likely correct. Also, they are not the same shape. They are actually pretty different (aside from the fact that they are both stick figure crowns).

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Perhaps those large figures between a human and dwarf in proportion carved around the council room will come to life and defeat the vampires and help the Nightcrawler achieve his dream of becoming a therapist. Hey, you never know. It could happen.

    —Caerulea

    Wow, your guess is so weird. I don't think that it will happen at all...
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Of course, Dvalin's title is "First King of the Dwarves", so the symbol could very well be a stylized representation of his earthly OotS-world-ly crown...and I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that Fyron had a demigod's crown on display at his library.
    Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical? In the battle of Azure City, it's stated that the crown is merely for show and looks and doesn't have any magical properties...

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical?
    No?

    Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical?
    Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.
    Additionally, Dvalin was a mortal monarch before he was a demigod; if Fyron happened to have Dvalin's crown, it would probably have been from his mortal days.

    Or maybe soaking up Evil is the result of a somewhat magical property.

    Or maybe Fyron has a convincing replica. Or maybe it was disjoined and is no longer magical. Or maybe it's a convincing replica that was disjoined.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No?

    Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

    Grey Wolf
    High-level characters tend to have a whole lot of magic items. Here, take the Example of Rassilon. And it would make sense to have, say Charisma enhancement, on a crown.

    Also the mere fact of having belong to a god may make it a relic and therefore inherently magical even if that god was a mortal, like how in Oblivion, acquiring blood on the armor of the mortal* Tiber Septim counts as having the blood of the god Talos for spell-casting purposes.

    Then again I don’t think these are the same crown.

    *Although as possibly a Dragonborn and a Shezzarine Tibet Septim is possibly not the best example of a mortal.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    I don't think anyone's arguing that Dvalin's crown couldn't be magical, though.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    High-level characters tend to have a whole lot of magic items. Here, take the Example of Rassilon. And it would make sense to have, say Charisma enhancement, on a crown.
    "Would make sense" is not the same as "the crown of a demigod [would] be somewhat magical".

    Also, I'm not sure it is a given that Dvalin was high-level in life. High level is not trivially attained in OotS, and his ascension to demigod status does not seem to have been predicated on its level, but on the belief in him by other dwarves, which is compatible a high level, but hardly requires it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    "Would make sense" is not the same as "the crown of a demigod [would] be somewhat magical".

    Also, I'm not sure it is a given that Dvalin was high-level in life. High level is not trivially attained in OotS, and his ascension to demigod status does not seem to have been predicated on its level, but on the belief in him by other dwarves, which is compatible a high level, but hardly requires it.

    Grey Wolf
    To ascend to godhood one needs to be an exceptional individual who has things impressive enough that both a whole lot of people see them as a divine figure and gods take notice and sponsor their ascension, which in a D&D-based world would require high-level, no?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Jasidof is likely correct. Also, they are not the same shape. They are actually pretty different (aside from the fact that they are both stick figure crowns).

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    Fair enough! I am sold by your and Jasdoi's argument.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    High level perhaps but easily just high level in an NPC class (aristocrat, in this case) which does not imply many magic items
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    To ascend to godhood one needs to be an exceptional individual who has things impressive enough that both a whole lot of people see them as a divine figure and gods take notice and sponsor their ascension, which in a D&D-based world would require high-level, no?
    No, not really. We have no idea how he became King of the Dwarves, but a guy who refuses to make decisions without hearing from everyone else is not necessarily going to be out hunting for monsters to level up. Dvalin was a paragon of (a) virtue amongst dwarves, it seems, which means parents everywhere were telling them "be more like King Dvalin" to dwarven children everywhere. Dwarves believed in what Dvalin represented, to the point he became a god (with the help of the Northern pantheon). But none of that requires him to be anything other than a level 1 commoner. Sure, it is likely that politics gave him a few levels of whatever class Shojo had, but I fail to see how those in any way altered or facilitated his deification. I honestly believe they are unrelated.

    (tDO, OTOH, was a warlord and fought many actual battles, so his fame was connected to the actions that gave him XP. I just don't see that Dvalin followed that path)

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, not really. We have no idea how he became King of the Dwarves, but a guy who refuses to make decisions without hearing from everyone else is not necessarily going to be out hunting for monsters to level up.
    Dvalin refuses to disobey an oath, that’s not the same thing. A reasonable oath at the time it was made too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Dvalin was a paragon of (a) virtue amongst dwarves, it seems, which means parents everywhere were telling them "be more like King Dvalin" to dwarven children everywhere. Dwarves believed in what Dvalin represented, to the point he became a god (with the help of the Northern pantheon). But none of that requires him to be anything other than a level 1 commoner. Sure, it is likely that politics gave him a few levels of whatever class Shojo had, but I fail to see how those in any way altered or facilitated his deification. I honestly believe they are unrelated.
    Parangons of virtue that don’t do squat aren’t held as example of anything. They are forgotten because people don’t know about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    (tDO, OTOH, was a warlord and fought many actual battles, so his fame was connected to the actions that gave him XP. I just don't see that Dvalin followed that path)

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    Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    There's lots of hermits, visionaries and the like that were practically worshipped in the real world despite not doing anything that would require a high level. We know ascension requires mass worship and belief, nothing more. Sure, being able to draw notice to yourself by conquering whole worlds by yourself before breakfast probably makes things easier, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Dvalin refuses to disobey an oath, that’s not the same thing. A reasonable oath at the time it was made too.
    Yes, but not one that gives XP. Not sure what you are implying here - I have nothing against Dvalin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Parangons of virtue that don’t do squat aren’t held as example of anything. They are forgotten because people don’t know about them.
    Dvalin ruled by consensus, and was by all accounts Lawful to a fault. Neither of those things require him to gain levels, and his devotion to upholding the dwarven ideals of honour, even when that means doing nothing, might have been enough to be remembered. Also, what hrothila says above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.
    Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.
    Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.
    Alternatively...if Dvalin was some sort of legendary conqueror before the dwarves had a king, in all likelihood he'd have had preferred headgear well before having need of a crown; and further enhancements would be much more sensibly placed on the already enchanted headgear rather than the crown.

    Or both: If Dvalin gathered the clan heads to get their support for overthrowing a particular despot, having a fancy-looking-but-not-functional crown could symbolically reflect the "obey the will of the Council" oath that ultimately garnered the backing for establishing a monarchy.


    And since we're deep in conjectural-and-incidental territory already, there are certainly other possibilities (besides the obvious and boring "the crown has nothing to do with Dvalin") with varying degrees of outlandishness: things like "Dvalin had multiple crowns over his lifetime", "the crown was disjoined around the time a parliament replaced the Council as the dwarven government", "Xykon doesn't know the crown is magical", etc.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No?

    Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

    Grey Wolf
    Yeah, but let’s be honest. Suppose you were playing in campaign where you retrieved the artifact called “The Crown of Dvalin” from the head of an epic level lich.

    If your DM said, “no, really, it doesn’t do anything but sit on your head”, would you be epically disappointed? I know I would.

    Since the canonical rule of every D&D world is “don’t disappoint the players”, it must logically follow that Xykon’s crown is *not* “The Crown of Dvalin”, the ancient dwarven artifact worn by the first king and god of the dwarves.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    There's lots of hermits, visionaries and the like that were practically worshipped in the real world despite not doing anything that would require a high level.
    True. Because it’s D&D, most rulers generally have some levels beyond 1st level commoner, so they don’t die in a random encounter with a house cat.

    But Dvalin could certainly be a lot more like Shojo (with a handful of aristocrat levels), and nothing like Tarquin (with epic adventurer levels)
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-06-05 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Yeah, but let’s be honest. Suppose you were playing in campaign where you retrieved the artifact called “The Crown of Dvalin” from the head of an epic level lich.

    If your DM said, “no, really, it doesn’t do anything but sit on your head”, would you be epically disappointed? I know I would.
    I wouldn't. It was extremelly common to be given as reward non-magical stuff made of gold that we'd then flog to buy ourself the magic items. Sure, at low levels it was all copper and gold coins, but by level 10, it was "garnets" and "diamonds" and "inlaid scepters" and the like. Good thing too, since gold coins were heavy. "The non-magical Crown of Dvalin" sounds like something we could sell for far more than its weight in gold, saving us precious weight capacity. Possibly get a nice dwarven runed weapon as a subquest for recovering it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Since the canonical rule of every D&D world is “don’t disappoint the players”, it must logically follow that Xykon’s crown is *not* “The Crown of Dvalin”, the ancient dwarven artifact worn by the first king and god of the dwarves.
    No, that doesn't necessarily follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    But Dvalin could certainly be a lot more like Shojo, with a handful of aristocrat levels, and a lot less like Tarquin, with epic level arrow snatching feats.
    Tarquin was also not the head of state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Not the official one, at least. De Facto, I'm pretty sure he is.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Not the official one, at least. De Facto, I'm pretty sure he is.
    Well, he is now that his handler is re-dead. Before Malack croaked, though, I suspect he was the actual brains behind everyday workings of the Empire.

    Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I wouldn't. It was extremelly common to be given as reward non-magical stuff made of gold that we'd then flog to buy ourself the magic items. Sure, at low levels it was all copper and gold coins, but by level 10, it was "garnets" and "diamonds" and "inlaid scepters" and the like. Good thing too, since gold coins were heavy. "The non-magical Crown of Dvalin" sounds like something we could sell for far more than its weight in gold, saving us precious weight capacity. Possibly get a nice dwarven runed weapon as a subquest for recovering it.
    Or a nice sidequest/subplot of the Dwarven nation wishing to reclaim one of its historical artifacts, and putting bounties on the party's heads.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, that doesn't necessarily follow.
    That's also...a goofy "canonical rule" to claim. Particularly, as it apparently is here, taken to the point of "if the players make an assumption such that they'll be disappointed if they learn that assumption is wrong, you're obligated to throw out whatever you were planning that conflicts with that assumption and make it official."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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