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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.
    Shojo was level 14, though. And he doesn't seem like a conquerer type.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No?

    Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

    Grey Wolf
    If the crown sn't magical, that is what would make it special!
    At high levels, how hard s it to find NONmagic items!
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

    Maybe you are just fine taking useless treasure like “Emporer Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” to the local pawn shop to get 50gp.

    But not me! When I wrest “Supreme Commander Dvalin’s Flaming Axe of Tree Smiting” from the king of the Ents, I expect a magical artifact that will chop down trees with one blow, and set them on fire too!
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-06-06 at 12:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Well, he is now that his handler is re-dead. Before Malack croaked, though, I suspect he was the actual brains behind everyday workings of the Empire.

    Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

    Grey Wolf
    Interaction and roleplaying XP is a thing.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.
    Nah, just campaigns where "Dvalin's crown" is an expensive, high-end, non-magical doodad. Nothing pedestrian about it.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.
    But that's not what it is called. It is, in fact, not called anything. It is simply, for all we know, a gold crown. Not every single piece of loot you ever encounter in a campaign has to be or indeed can be a named, legendary item of untold power. Most loot is just loot. And there is no reason to assume that Dvalin's crown was infused with any kind of magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Interaction and roleplaying XP is a thing.
    It is indeed, but a tiny percentage of XP gains comapred to fighting. THis is D&D, not V:tM. There are many RP worlds were talking your way out of problems is as good a source of XP-equivlanet as fighting, if not better, but OotS is not runing in any of them.

    Like V pointed out, decades of study gave them a few low levels in wizard, and was pretty much dwarfed in a couple of week's worth of adventuring. That's just how the rules of this world shake out.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-06-06 at 12:42 PM.
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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    But that's not what it is called. It is, in fact, not called anything.
    I’m pretty sure I just called it “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command”, so I don’t see how you can claim it’s not called anything.

    But yeah, it don’t think it’s called anything in the comic. It’s just a crown. And I doubt it’s the same one xykon is wearing.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I’m pretty sure I just called it “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command”, so I don’t see how you can claim it’s not called anything.
    Nobody claimed that “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” is a mundane item, though.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nah, just campaigns where "Dvalin's crown" is an expensive, high-end, non-magical doodad. Nothing pedestrian about it.
    Oyah. Valuable != Magical. See also artwork, national treasures, royal regalia, etc. Dvalin's crown easily slots into the first three.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Oyah. Valuable != Magical. See also artwork, national treasures, royal regalia, etc. Dvalin's crown easily slots into the first three.
    Dvalin's Crown originally was meant to provide Royal Guards who wear it with a slew of amazing bonuses, such as inherent Owl's Wisdom, heavy stat bonuses, a success on anything short of a critical failure when negotiating with Dwarves, inherent Stonecunning abilities, and a direct link to communicate with the spirits of ancient dwarven kings. among other things.
    The issue is that it was given such a specific set of circumstances to activate (including all of class builds, background settings, positions and presence of multiple artifacts), which in combination with the detailed info accidentally not being printed led to no one ever bothering to use it.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post

    The issue is that it was given such a specific set of circumstances to activate (including all of class builds, background settings, positions and presence of multiple artifacts), which in combination with the detailed info accidentally not being printed led to no one ever bothering to use it.
    Also, the required companion artifact “ Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” had the inadvertent side effect of cursing the wearer with alcohol intolerance, so it was thrown into an active volcano.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-06-06 at 04:55 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Also, the required companion artifact “ Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” had the inadvertent curse of inflicting alcohol intolerance on the wearer, so it was obviously thrown into a volcano.
    Actually, Dvalin's Leather Belt of Flatulence Control was only needed to activate the Crown; after awakening it, the Belt can be safely disposed of, far, far away from anyone else.

    A lot of spells fail when the thing they are casted on is destroyed.
    What do you think happens when a Belt of Flatulence Control is destroyed?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.
    Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.
    You’re thinking of Monty’s Spammy Can of Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.
    Is it parodies all the way down?
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Is it parodies all the way down?
    Arguable; the parodies reach critical mass and turn into a turtle at some point.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Arguable; the parodies reach critical mass and turn into a turtle at some point.
    Well yeah, but the next level down is a parody of the turtle.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well yeah, but the next level down is a parody of the turtle.
    That's the thing, though: It's past the critical mass of the terrapinning point; so that parody of the turtle is, itself, a turtle. So it's turtles the rest of the way down...so whether it's parodies all the way down depends on whether the emergent chelonian properties are divergent enough that they're only technically parodies; and that's a subjective question. I hear Donatello and Michelangelo have different views on the matter.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    That's the thing, though: It's past the critical mass of the terrapinning point; so that parody of the turtle is, itself, a turtle. So it's turtles the rest of the way down...so whether it's parodies all the way down depends on whether the emergent chelonian properties are divergent enough that they're only technically parodies; and that's a subjective question.
    So you're saying the turtles are just a parade of parodies?
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So you're saying the turtles are just a parade of parodies?
    Potentially a parade of parodies, perhaps.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Potentially a parade of parodies, perhaps.
    If not a parade, then a preponderance.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    The crown didn't have to be magical to become an artifact as a side effect of Dvalin's ascension. Gods leave artifacts behind all the time that were just items that held a lot of meaning to them when they were mortals and or when they walked the land.

    Heck, one god just left his body parts lying around and those became artifacts.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It is indeed, but a tiny percentage of XP gains comapred to fighting. THis is D&D, not V:tM. There are many RP worlds were talking your way out of problems is as good a source of XP-equivlanet as fighting, if not better, but OotS is not runing in any of them.

    Like V pointed out, decades of study gave them a few low levels in wizard, and was pretty much dwarfed in a couple of week's worth of adventuring. That's just how the rules of this world shake out.

    Grey Wolf
    Again, Shojo got to level 14, as an Aristocrat, no less. If he could do that, so could Dvalin.

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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, but not one that gives XP. Not sure what you are implying here - I have nothing against Dvalin.
    That being ‘a guy who refuses to take decisions without hearing from everyone else’ is an unfair characterization of Dvalin. His oath is pretty specific.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Dvalin ruled by consensus, and was by all accounts Lawful to a fault. Neither of those things require him to gain levels, and his devotion to upholding the dwarven ideals of honour, even when that means doing nothing, might have been enough to be remembered. Also, what hrothila says above.
    Dvalin was an exemplar of Dwarven honor, which puts a heavy emphasis on battle, in a world full of monsters. It seems logical that he would have fought a lot.



    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.

    Grey Wolf
    I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean? The dwarves had no king before him, so if they felt the need to have one that indicates some pretty exceptional circumstances. Maybe there was a bunch of dwarven civil wars that he won and he appeased tensions by swearing to rule by consensus. Maybe he united them against a common ennemy and he made his oath to guarantee he wouldn’t be a tyrant.

    And maybe it was a time of peace and he convinced the dwarves to impart a massive change to their political system giving him a lot of power out of sheer charisma and force of persuasion. Wouldn’t that require a whole lot of persuasion checks (or whatever the relevant skill is) which would indicate high-level no? I mean since when is it easy to convince politicians to give up power?

    My point, finally, is that I was told that the whole point of the NPC/PC class systems is to separate exceptionally individuals (the movers and shakers of a heroic-fantasy world) from the more mundane ones. And that the higher level you are the better you are at what you do. Given these premisses, it seems logical to presume that some who both changed an entire society and was elevated to (demi-)godhood would have been high-level.


    Also none of this adresses the ‘The crown could be magic because it’s a relic’ argument that I find stronger anyway.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That being ‘a guy who refuses to take decisions without hearing from everyone else’ is an unfair characterization of Dvalin. His oath is pretty specific.
    His oath is extremely specific indeed: "obey the will of the council on issues affecting the clans". Which results in him never making decisions without hearing from everyone else ("I am told he's never cast his vote without polling them first"), since all his actions would affect the clans. It is therefore not an unfair characterization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Dvalin was an exemplar of Dwarven honor, which puts a heavy emphasis on battle, in a world full of monsters. It seems logical that he would have fought a lot.
    No, it does not. It puts a heavy emphasis in dying with honor, which for politicians includes fighting in their own terms, i.e. via politics. Battle is not at all required, as Rich has been extremely clear about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean?
    It means war, and usually refers to civil war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The dwarves had no king before him, so if they felt the need to have one that indicates some pretty exceptional circumstances. Maybe there was a bunch of dwarven civil wars that he won and he appeased tensions by swearing to rule by consensus. Maybe he united them against a common ennemy and he made his oath to guarantee he wouldn’t be a tyrant.
    If he has won a war, no oath is needed. That kind of appeasement oath is the conclusion of alliance building, not of wholesale slaughter. I see no reason to assume Dvalin so much as killed a fly in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    And maybe it was a time of peace and he convinced the dwarves to impart a massive change to their political system giving him a lot of power out of sheer charisma and force of persuasion. Wouldn’t that require a whole lot of persuasion checks (or whatever the relevant skill is) which would indicate high-level no? I mean since when is it easy to convince politicians to give up power?
    No, it doesn't require high level. It requires you to be about the same level as the people you are facing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    My point, finally, is that I was told that the whole point of the NPC/PC class systems is to separate exceptionally individuals (the movers and shakers of a heroic-fantasy world) from the more mundane ones. And that the higher level you are the better you are at what you do. Given these premisses, it seems logical to presume that some who both changed an entire society and was elevated to (demi-)godhood would have been high-level.
    [citation needed for OotS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also none of this adresses the ‘The crown could be magic because it’s a relic’ argument that I find stronger anyway.
    It is also clearly circular. "The crown is magic because I say it's magic", in a nutshell.

    Object don't randomly acquire magical powers every X years in any D&D setting I'm aware of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean?
    If you've seen The Godfather, then:
    Spoiler
    Show
    When Michael Corleone arranges the simultaneous murders of every single rival of the Corleone family to assure their dominance.
    If not, watch the movie, especially the bit towards the end.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Drawven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    If you've seen The Godfather, then:
    Spoiler
    Show
    When Michael Corleone arranges the simultaneous murders of every single rival of the Corleone family to assure their dominance.
    If not, watch the movie, especially the bit towards the end.
    Well, I have only yesterday seen Saving Private Ryan I might as well get on with my must see list, else I endless wonder wether The Godfather has someone obsessed with killing his victims with two parallel slashes to the throat or something.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    What's the rest of the list?
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Let's see, in no particular order:

    Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones II and III, Predator, Yojimbo, Fight Club, Star Trek I and II, Alien, Alien: Resurrection*, Hidden Fortress, Casablanca**, Doctor Who: The Movie***, La Soupe aux Choux****, Les gendarmes de Saint-Tropez****, Cow-Boy Bebop*****, Forrest Gump, Dracula******* and Titanic.

    I probably forget a few, but I do not have an actual, physical list, you know.



    *Jean Jeunet directed an Alien movie!? What?!

    **Already seen but can't remember most of it.

    ***As part of my ongoing DW marathon. (Up to Six!)******

    ****Oh, who am I kidding, everything with De Funčs as lead.

    *****Probably worth being part of a marathon as well.

    ****** GNU Sir Terry Pratchett

    *******The one with Lugosi
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-06-07 at 01:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Crown above door at Dwarven council

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Let's see, in no particular order:

    Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones II and III, Predator, Yojimbo, Fight Club, Star Trek I and II, Alien, Alien: Resurrection*, Hidden Fortress, Casablanca**, Doctor Who: The Movie***, La Soupe aux Choux****, Les gendarmes de Saint-Tropez****, Cow-Boy Bebop*****, Forrest Gump, Dracula****** and Titanic.

    I probably forget a few, but I do not have an actual, physical list, you know.



    *Jean Jeunet directed an Alien movie!? What?!

    **Already seen but can't remember most of it.

    ***As part of my ongoing DW marathon. (Up to Six!)*******

    ****Oh, who am I kidding, everything with De Funčs as lead.

    *****Probably worth being part of a marathon as well.

    ******* GNU Sir Terry Pratchett

    ******The one with Lugosi
    Jurassic Park is one of my favorite movies. The Last Crusade is also right up there; without spoiling anything, the Hitler scene manages to go from absolutely terrifying to completely hilarious in the most perfect way imaginable. You seen Shawshank Redemption or The Blues Brothers? Both are also in my favorites list, and are ones I'd recommend wholeheartedly. Fair warning, Shawshank Redemptionis.... let's say not a family-friendly one.
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