Crown above door at Dwarven council

[Kelenius]

Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

Shojo was level 14, though. And he doesn't seem like a conquerer type.

[Wizard_Lizard]

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

If the crown sn't magical, that is what would make it special!
At high levels, how hard s it to find NONmagic items!

[Dion]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

Maybe you are just fine taking useless treasure like “Emporer Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” to the local pawn shop to get 50gp.

But not me! When I wrest “Supreme Commander Dvalin’s Flaming Axe of Tree Smiting” from the king of the Ents, I expect a magical artifact that will chop down trees with one blow, and set them on fire too!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, he is now that his handler is re-dead. Before Malack croaked, though, I suspect he was the actual brains behind everyday workings of the Empire.

Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

Grey Wolf

Interaction and roleplaying XP is a thing.

[Peelee]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

Nah, just campaigns where "Dvalin's crown" is an expensive, high-end, non-magical doodad. Nothing pedestrian about it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

But that's not what it is called. It is, in fact, not called anything. It is simply, for all we know, a gold crown. Not every single piece of loot you ever encounter in a campaign has to be or indeed can be a named, legendary item of untold power. Most loot is just loot. And there is no reason to assume that Dvalin's crown was infused with any kind of magic.

Interaction and roleplaying XP is a thing.

It is indeed, but a tiny percentage of XP gains comapred to fighting. THis is D&D, not V:tM. There are many RP worlds were talking your way out of problems is as good a source of XP-equivlanet as fighting, if not better, but OotS is not runing in any of them.

Like V pointed out, decades of study gave them a few low levels in wizard, and was pretty much dwarfed in a couple of week's worth of adventuring. That's just how the rules of this world shake out.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

But that's not what it is called. It is, in fact, not called anything.

I’m pretty sure I just called it “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command”, so I don’t see how you can claim it’s not called anything.

But yeah, it don’t think it’s called anything in the comic. It’s just a crown. And I doubt it’s the same one xykon is wearing.

[Peelee]

I’m pretty sure I just called it “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command”, so I don’t see how you can claim it’s not called anything.

Nobody claimed that “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” is a mundane item, though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, just campaigns where "Dvalin's crown" is an expensive, high-end, non-magical doodad. Nothing pedestrian about it.

Oyah. Valuable != Magical. See also artwork, national treasures, royal regalia, etc. Dvalin's crown easily slots into the first three.

[Squire Doodad]

Oyah. Valuable != Magical. See also artwork, national treasures, royal regalia, etc. Dvalin's crown easily slots into the first three.

Dvalin's Crown originally was meant to provide Royal Guards who wear it with a slew of amazing bonuses, such as inherent Owl's Wisdom, heavy stat bonuses, a success on anything short of a critical failure when negotiating with Dwarves, inherent Stonecunning abilities, and a direct link to communicate with the spirits of ancient dwarven kings. among other things.
The issue is that it was given such a specific set of circumstances to activate (including all of class builds, background settings, positions and presence of multiple artifacts), which in combination with the detailed info accidentally not being printed led to no one ever bothering to use it.

[Dion]

The issue is that it was given such a specific set of circumstances to activate (including all of class builds, background settings, positions and presence of multiple artifacts), which in combination with the detailed info accidentally not being printed led to no one ever bothering to use it.

Also, the required companion artifact “ Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” had the inadvertent side effect of cursing the wearer with alcohol intolerance, so it was thrown into an active volcano.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, the required companion artifact “ Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” had the inadvertent curse of inflicting alcohol intolerance on the wearer, so it was obviously thrown into a volcano.

Actually, Dvalin's Leather Belt of Flatulence Control was only needed to activate the Crown; after awakening it, the Belt can be safely disposed of, far, far away from anyone else.

A lot of spells fail when the thing they are casted on is destroyed.
What do you think happens when a Belt of Flatulence Control is destroyed?

[Jasdoif]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.

[Dion]

Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.

You’re thinking of Monty’s Spammy Can of Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam.

[Peelee]

Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.

Is it parodies all the way down?

[Jasdoif]

Is it parodies all the way down?

Arguable; the parodies reach critical mass and turn into a turtle at some point.

[Peelee]

Arguable; the parodies reach critical mass and turn into a turtle at some point.

Well yeah, but the next level down is a parody of the turtle.

[Jasdoif]

Well yeah, but the next level down is a parody of the turtle.

That's the thing, though: It's past the critical mass of the terrapinning point; so that parody of the turtle is, itself, a turtle. So it's turtles the rest of the way down...so whether it's parodies all the way down depends on whether the emergent chelonian properties are divergent enough that they're only technically parodies; and that's a subjective question. I hear Donatello and Michelangelo have different views on the matter.

[Peelee]

That's the thing, though: It's past the critical mass of the terrapinning point; so that parody of the turtle is, itself, a turtle. So it's turtles the rest of the way down...so whether it's parodies all the way down depends on whether the emergent chelonian properties are divergent enough that they're only technically parodies; and that's a subjective question.

So you're saying the turtles are just a parade of parodies?

[Jasdoif]

So you're saying the turtles are just a parade of parodies?

Potentially a parade of parodies, perhaps.

[Peelee]

Potentially a parade of parodies, perhaps.

If not a parade, then a preponderance.

[RatElemental]

The crown didn't have to be magical to become an artifact as a side effect of Dvalin's ascension. Gods leave artifacts behind all the time that were just items that held a lot of meaning to them when they were mortals and or when they walked the land.

Heck, one god just left his body parts lying around and those became artifacts.

[Kelenius]

It is indeed, but a tiny percentage of XP gains comapred to fighting. THis is D&D, not V:tM. There are many RP worlds were talking your way out of problems is as good a source of XP-equivlanet as fighting, if not better, but OotS is not runing in any of them.

Like V pointed out, decades of study gave them a few low levels in wizard, and was pretty much dwarfed in a couple of week's worth of adventuring. That's just how the rules of this world shake out.

Grey Wolf

Again, Shojo got to level 14, as an Aristocrat, no less. If he could do that, so could Dvalin.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but not one that gives XP. Not sure what you are implying here - I have nothing against Dvalin.

That being ‘a guy who refuses to take decisions without hearing from everyone else’ is an unfair characterization of Dvalin. His oath is pretty specific.

Dvalin ruled by consensus, and was by all accounts Lawful to a fault. Neither of those things require him to gain levels, and his devotion to upholding the dwarven ideals of honour, even when that means doing nothing, might have been enough to be remembered. Also, what hrothila says above.

Dvalin was an exemplar of Dwarven honor, which puts a heavy emphasis on battle, in a world full of monsters. It seems logical that he would have fought a lot.

Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.

Grey Wolf

I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean? The dwarves had no king before him, so if they felt the need to have one that indicates some pretty exceptional circumstances. Maybe there was a bunch of dwarven civil wars that he won and he appeased tensions by swearing to rule by consensus. Maybe he united them against a common ennemy and he made his oath to guarantee he wouldn’t be a tyrant.

And maybe it was a time of peace and he convinced the dwarves to impart a massive change to their political system giving him a lot of power out of sheer charisma and force of persuasion. Wouldn’t that require a whole lot of persuasion checks (or whatever the relevant skill is) which would indicate high-level no? I mean since when is it easy to convince politicians to give up power?

My point, finally, is that I was told that the whole point of the NPC/PC class systems is to separate exceptionally individuals (the movers and shakers of a heroic-fantasy world) from the more mundane ones. And that the higher level you are the better you are at what you do. Given these premisses, it seems logical to presume that some who both changed an entire society and was elevated to (demi-)godhood would have been high-level.


Also none of this adresses the ‘The crown could be magic because it’s a relic’ argument that I find stronger anyway.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That being ‘a guy who refuses to take decisions without hearing from everyone else’ is an unfair characterization of Dvalin. His oath is pretty specific.

His oath is extremely specific indeed: "obey the will of the council on issues affecting the clans". Which results in him never making decisions without hearing from everyone else ("I am told he's never cast his vote without polling them first"), since all his actions would affect the clans. It is therefore not an unfair characterization.

Dvalin was an exemplar of Dwarven honor, which puts a heavy emphasis on battle, in a world full of monsters. It seems logical that he would have fought a lot.

No, it does not. It puts a heavy emphasis in dying with honor, which for politicians includes fighting in their own terms, i.e. via politics. Battle is not at all required, as Rich has been extremely clear about.

I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean?

It means war, and usually refers to civil war.

The dwarves had no king before him, so if they felt the need to have one that indicates some pretty exceptional circumstances. Maybe there was a bunch of dwarven civil wars that he won and he appeased tensions by swearing to rule by consensus. Maybe he united them against a common ennemy and he made his oath to guarantee he wouldn’t be a tyrant.

If he has won a war, no oath is needed. That kind of appeasement oath is the conclusion of alliance building, not of wholesale slaughter. I see no reason to assume Dvalin so much as killed a fly in life.

And maybe it was a time of peace and he convinced the dwarves to impart a massive change to their political system giving him a lot of power out of sheer charisma and force of persuasion. Wouldn’t that require a whole lot of persuasion checks (or whatever the relevant skill is) which would indicate high-level no? I mean since when is it easy to convince politicians to give up power?

No, it doesn't require high level. It requires you to be about the same level as the people you are facing.

My point, finally, is that I was told that the whole point of the NPC/PC class systems is to separate exceptionally individuals (the movers and shakers of a heroic-fantasy world) from the more mundane ones. And that the higher level you are the better you are at what you do. Given these premisses, it seems logical to presume that some who both changed an entire society and was elevated to (demi-)godhood would have been high-level.

[citation needed for OotS]

Also none of this adresses the ‘The crown could be magic because it’s a relic’ argument that I find stronger anyway.

It is also clearly circular. "The crown is magic because I say it's magic", in a nutshell.

Object don't randomly acquire magical powers every X years in any D&D setting I'm aware of.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean?

If you've seen The Godfather, then:

Spoiler

Show

When Michael Corleone arranges the simultaneous murders of every single rival of the Corleone family to assure their dominance.

If not, watch the movie, especially the bit towards the end.

[Fyraltari]

If you've seen The Godfather, then:

Spoiler

Show

When Michael Corleone arranges the simultaneous murders of every single rival of the Corleone family to assure their dominance.

If not, watch the movie, especially the bit towards the end.

Well, I have only yesterday seen Saving Private Ryan I might as well get on with my must see list, else I endless wonder wether The Godfather has someone obsessed with killing his victims with two parallel slashes to the throat or something.

[Peelee]

What's the rest of the list?

[Fyraltari]

Let's see, in no particular order:

Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones II and III, Predator, Yojimbo, Fight Club, Star Trek I and II, Alien, Alien: Resurrection*, Hidden Fortress, Casablanca**, Doctor Who: The Movie***, La Soupe aux Choux****, Les gendarmes de Saint-Tropez****, Cow-Boy Bebop*****, Forrest Gump, Dracula******* and Titanic.

I probably forget a few, but I do not have an actual, physical list, you know.



*Jean Jeunet directed an Alien movie!? What?!

**Already seen but can't remember most of it.

***As part of my ongoing DW marathon. (Up to Six!)******

****Oh, who am I kidding, everything with De Funès as lead.

*****Probably worth being part of a marathon as well.

****** GNU Sir Terry Pratchett

*******The one with Lugosi

[Peelee]

Let's see, in no particular order:

Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones II and III, Predator, Yojimbo, Fight Club, Star Trek I and II, Alien, Alien: Resurrection*, Hidden Fortress, Casablanca**, Doctor Who: The Movie***, La Soupe aux Choux****, Les gendarmes de Saint-Tropez****, Cow-Boy Bebop*****, Forrest Gump, Dracula****** and Titanic.

I probably forget a few, but I do not have an actual, physical list, you know.



*Jean Jeunet directed an Alien movie!? What?!

**Already seen but can't remember most of it.

***As part of my ongoing DW marathon. (Up to Six!)*******

****Oh, who am I kidding, everything with De Funès as lead.

*****Probably worth being part of a marathon as well.

******* GNU Sir Terry Pratchett

******The one with Lugosi

Jurassic Park is one of my favorite movies. The Last Crusade is also right up there; without spoiling anything, the Hitler scene manages to go from absolutely terrifying to completely hilarious in the most perfect way imaginable. You seen Shawshank Redemption or The Blues Brothers? Both are also in my favorites list, and are ones I'd recommend wholeheartedly. Fair warning, Shawshank Redemptionis.... let's say not a family-friendly one.