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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oooooohhhhhhhhhh, that makes sense. In that case, two other comments arise. First, why add them on Snapchat instead of just talking through Bumble to start with? It would cut out the whole "exchange a few messages, send pictures, then get ghosted" middleman.

    Second, getting ghosted sucks, but if it was only after a couple messages it's significantly less bad than after a much bigger investment in getting to know them. And we're also back to the numbers game; they're less likely to get pestered or harassed by ghosting than by politely declining.
    Couple of reasons.

    1) I very rarely get matches on Tinder or such.
    2) Half the time when I DO get a match, they never talk.
    3) I often get ghosted after talking for a little on those places to boot.

    Like you say, numbers game. Plus I have met an occasional nice person without having matched first.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    3) I often get ghosted after talking for a little on those places to boot.
    Is it more often than when you talk to them through snapchat? I'm kind of intrigued, I'd think it would be even worse on a third party app.

    Also, back when I had accounts on dating sites I almost never sent out messages because I figured they were inundated with openers all the time, so my strategy was to talk to the women who messaged me first. Worked pretty well, it ended in marriage. I recommend that plan.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Is it more often than when you talk to them through snapchat? I'm kind of intrigued, I'd think it would be even worse on a third party app.

    Also, back when I had accounts on dating sites I almost never sent out messages because I figured they were inundated with openers all the time, so my strategy was to talk to the women who messaged me first. Worked pretty well, it ended in marriage. I recommend that plan.
    About equal, honestly. As in, just about everyone.

    And I guess that makes sense, but at the same time, I can count on one hand the amount of openers I've gotten from other people, and I've been on Ok Cupid for four years now.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So, asking for a picture is perfectly reasonable-heck, I'd do the same if someone added me out of the blue from a dating site! It's the whole "Delete me without even saying goodbye" that gets to me.
    It clearly is, and the fact that we have a specific negative-connoted term for such stuff ("ghosted") makes me think that plenty of other people are bothered by it as well. However, I think it's probably one of those things you are going to have to learn to endure. As others have mentioned, unwanted or toxic attention is the burden of women on such sites (whereas silence and scams the burden for men), and these women have undoubtedly gotten nothing but trouble (probably in a way that makes them feel unsafe and genuinely not want to engage in this form of people-meeting) for doing the nice things and letting people down easy, whereas the delete button has no possibility of blowback. The incentivization structure set up stinks for everyone involved, but no one has a strong incentive for fixing it.

    Plus I have met an occasional nice person without having matched first.
    Me and my wife are actually friends with a couple people we each had individually been previously paired with and just not hit it off romantically. Hopefully, if you haven't found The One, you've at least met some nice people.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    It clearly is, and the fact that we have a specific negative-connoted term for such stuff ("ghosted") makes me think that plenty of other people are bothered by it as well. However, I think it's probably one of those things you are going to have to learn to endure. As others have mentioned, unwanted or toxic attention is the burden of women on such sites (whereas silence and scams the burden for men), and these women have undoubtedly gotten nothing but trouble (probably in a way that makes them feel unsafe and genuinely not want to engage in this form of people-meeting) for doing the nice things and letting people down easy, whereas the delete button has no possibility of blowback. The incentivization structure set up stinks for everyone involved, but no one has a strong incentive for fixing it.

    Me and my wife are actually friends with a couple people we each had individually been previously paired with and just not hit it off romantically. Hopefully, if you haven't found The One, you've at least met some nice people.
    One or two.

    And I understand why women ghost, but that doesn't stop it from being sucky. Especially since I know I'm not the kind of guy to harass or anything a woman just for rejecting me. I mean, hell, I had a one-time date with a woman, had a nice time (at least, I did) and contacted her the next day. She said she didn't think we had much in common and didn't want to go on another. My response was "Darn. You sure?" and when she said yeah, I wished her luck on future dates.

    I mean, it's not hard to NOT be a jerk. I wish more people got that.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Although Cracked is another great example of a lot of chaff with some kernels of wheat in it, I found this article to be pretty darn useful, and a good perspective to have on finding a mate.
    I read that, and there were some bits of it I really didn't like. The bit about having to write to be a writer was spot on, but the bit about sales being about closing was off, if the product is rubbish, selling it will get the company in trouble, and that won't be good for the salesperson's long term wellbeing.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    First, to quote myself from about a month ago;
    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    "I rarely read this, you're more likely to reach me through IG" in practice means "I want to raise my IG follower count, but will be annoyed if you make it weird by trying to do something like interact with me". At least most sites worth anything will aggressively squelch anyone who tries "venmo me $5 and see what happens".
    It's rarely worth your while to reach out through those channels unless you're ridiculously good looking. And if you are ridiculously good looking, you'll have enough incoming attention that you won't have to bother with cold-messaging them through snapchat or whatever else.

    Second, if you haven't exchanged any messages, it isn't really ghosting. I get how it's disheartening to feel like you're throwing your messages into a void, but again to quote myself;
    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    The catastrophizing element gets a lot of air time (harassment, stalking, various threats and abuse that get unleashed upon rejection), but a lot of it comes down to simple time and attention bottlenecks. Average looking women can easily get enough messages that they start to feel drained before reading to the end of their inbox, never mind actually replying to people. Attractive women can have inboxes so full that keeping on top of them would amount to a part time job. Even in fantasy land where you can eliminate all the bad actors, boring prosaic issues are going to continue to exist.
    There are tons of very prosaic reasons that she hasn't gotten back to you that might have nothing to do with you specifically.

    Third, can we see your profile text (ideally C&P'd into a spoiler, since it's often a hassle to see an account if you don't have an active one yourself), some pictures, and some sample messages? You are going to have to figure out how to stand out in the attention economy of swipe apps. I'm surprised how few people understand what goes into actually being appealing to others.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I read that, and there were some bits of it I really didn't like. The bit about having to write to be a writer was spot on, but the bit about sales being about closing was off, if the product is rubbish, selling it will get the company in trouble, and that won't be good for the salesperson's long term wellbeing.
    Okay, I thought maybe I'd grabbed the wrong link, so I looked it up, but it's the right one. Next I read it, because maybe it didn't say what I remembered it saying. There's nothing in the article saying that the hypothetical salesperson who needs to close is selling a rubbish product. That seems like adding whole-cloth-inventions to the metaphor (and the salesperson, for the Cracked article, is a metaphor) to try to invalidate it, despite no specific way that it would translate out of the metaphor and into the general meaning of the article. I guess if we were dissecting Glengarry Glenn Ross (the movie that the article was using as a metaphor) itself, there might be the situation where some salesperson would proceed to actively lie to close a deal, and in that movie's analysis you might want to discuss how Alec Baldwin's character's speech might incentivize people to do the wrong thing. I just don't see how that back-translates to the rest of the Cracked article. Regardless, the article I linked pretty much said that Baldwin's character was borderline sociopathic, and it was more one's reaction to the speech that was pertinent.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Okay, I thought maybe I'd grabbed the wrong link, so I looked it up, but it's the right one. Next I read it, because maybe it didn't say what I remembered it saying. There's nothing in the article saying that the hypothetical salesperson who needs to close is selling a rubbish product.
    However, there's nothing saying they aren't selling a rubbish product. Saying that they need to close without specifying what they're selling is like saying that the point of dating apps is one night stands, and only one night stands.

    That seems like adding whole-cloth-inventions to the metaphor (and the salesperson, for the Cracked article, is a metaphor) to try to invalidate it, despite no specific way that it would translate out of the metaphor and into the general meaning of the article. I guess if we were dissecting Glengarry Glenn Ross (the movie that the article was using as a metaphor) itself, there might be the situation where some salesperson would proceed to actively lie to close a deal, and in that movie's analysis you might want to discuss how Alec Baldwin's character's speech might incentivize people to do the wrong thing. I just don't see how that back-translates to the rest of the Cracked article. Regardless, the article I linked pretty much said that Baldwin's character was borderline sociopathic, and it was more one's reaction to the speech that was pertinent.
    It (may, I don't remember), have said he was borderline sociopathic, but it said he was right. Him being right is a problem, whoever he is.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    It (may, I don't remember), have said he was borderline sociopathic, but it said he was right. Him being right is a problem, whoever he is.
    Indeed. That's a guy born on third base thinking he hit a triple. "I'm here because I sell 300,000" bullhonkey, he sells that much because he does it from a high-rise instead of a strip mall. It's smoke and mirrors, an illusion he wants you to buy into.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I read that, and there were some bits of it I really didn't like. The bit about having to write to be a writer was spot on, but the bit about sales being about closing was off, if the product is rubbish, selling it will get the company in trouble, and that won't be good for the salesperson's long term wellbeing.
    The point the author was making was that you are the product, and you need to both nake the best product possible and sell it as well as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The point the author was making was that you are the product, and you need to both nake the best product possible and sell it as well as possible.
    You know that old joke, "he could sell a fridge to an Inuit?" The trick is for them, it helps prevent the cold outside from getting to the insulated inside. Selling means finding out how to make the product appeal to the buyer. Got a lemon of a car? Find an aspiring wrench jockey and call it a mechanic's special. You don't need the best product, you just need to find out how to make it work for you.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You know that old joke, "he could sell a fridge to an Inuit?" The trick is for them, it helps prevent the cold outside from getting to the insulated inside. Selling means finding out how to make the product appeal to the buyer. Got a lemon of a car? Find an aspiring wrench jockey and call it a mechanic's special. You don't need the best product, you just need to find out how to make it work for you.
    It is an imperfect metaphor for dating for sure. Dating you are the manufacturer and the seller, you need to be your best self as well as good at showing clients what is good about you.

    The big attack is against the "but I'm a nice guy" approach, where Men who don't put effort into themselves think they are better then ones who do because they "care" and others "don't."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It is an imperfect metaphor for dating for sure. Dating you are the manufacturer and the seller, you need to be your best self as well as good at showing clients what is good about you.

    The big attack is against the "but I'm a nice guy" approach, where Men who don't put effort into themselves think they are better then ones who do because they "care" and others "don't."
    Yeah, I'll totally agree on that.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    However, there's nothing saying they aren't selling a rubbish product.
    So it is an open question, and you are inserting this suggestion you have made up out of completely whole cloth for absolutely unclear reasons.

    Saying that they need to close without specifying what they're selling is like saying that the point of dating apps is one night stands, and only one night stands.
    How? I would say it is the exact opposite. The later is declaring specifics to the situation, while the former is not.

    Completely aside from not understanding how you got there, I am going to repeat that, in the context of the Cracked article (as opposed the movie Glengarry Glenn Ross), sales are strictly a metaphor. There are no sales. I don't understand how this translates from the metaphor to the actual point being made in the article. If the article had made a statement about someone needing to get their ducks in a row, would we be arguing over whether the ducks might have avian influenza?

    It (may, I don't remember), have said he was borderline sociopathic, but it said he was right. Him being right is a problem, whoever he is.
    I stated, "It's brutal, rude, and borderline sociopathic, and also it is an honest and accurate expression of what the world is going to expect from you." That was the point. That's why the article is called, 'Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person.' Maybe the metaphor where the guy going to perform street surgery on your loved one should have medical training, will have more resonance for you, but the point is the same: don't expect some innate quality of being a nice guy or the like to have social cachet, try to bring some situationally relevant ability to the situation, and you will be rewarded/appreciated for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Indeed. That's a guy born on third base thinking he hit a triple. "I'm here because I sell 300,000" bullhonkey, he sells that much because he does it from a high-rise instead of a strip mall. It's smoke and mirrors, an illusion he wants you to buy into.
    Again, that's adding outside stuff that we don't know the answer to into what, again, is a metaphor. There is no high rise just like there are no sales. However, the more I think about it, the more appropriate it is. In the dating world, there are people that come into the situation with 3 bases in. Be that wealth, looks, natural charisma, or anything else. And you can be made at the existence or the ease at which the accomplish what for you might be a challenge, but they are still there, and you're competing with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It is an imperfect metaphor for dating for sure. Dating you are the manufacturer and the seller, you need to be your best self as well as good at showing clients what is good about you.

    The big attack is against the "but I'm a nice guy" approach, where Men who don't put effort into themselves think they are better then ones who do because they "care" and others "don't."
    And this is the point the article is making, and also why I brought it up in dating advice. A whole lot of people*, ** buy into the idea that women are into jerks, and it is a tragedy of the world that people don't realize what a nice guy they are and women ought to be into that. The truth is that a huge percentage of those jerks that end up with the women we're trying to connect with are in fact not jerks and very much just like us, except that they aren't banking on the 'being a nice guy' bit and instead brought something else to the table.
    *men seeking women, although a bunch of this flips around just fine when genders are switched up.
    **myself included for a very long time, so I'm changing the language to we from here on out

    What that thing is is hard to quantify, but it's there. And at least at the beginning of a relationship, it is vaguely transactional, which is why the sales metaphor was probably chosen. I'd like to think that my wife cares that I'm a nice guy and that we agree on basic principles of what it takes to be a good person in this world and follow through on it pretty well and such. However, when we first connected online and started dating, the reason we kept dating was, to some degree*, transactional -- I brought something to the time we spent together that was better than how she'd be spending her evening otherwise. Mostly being funny (or unfunny in an endearing way), being comfortable to be around, having common things to talk about (a full hour of our first date was going over guilty pleasures and laughing at them together). Nothing special. Certainly not something I could quantify or form into specific advice. But also clearly 'just being a good person,' but rather having something someone else wanted and having it available to bring forth when needed. That's what I personally think was the articles' main point and why I brought it forward.
    *that people don't want to acknowledge, which is why it is framed as a harsh truth

    I do think that, overall, the article might have made a mistake in using sales as a metaphor, given that it appears sales has a pretty strong negative connotation. It works just as well with any other job -- I went to google and found http://writingexercises.co.uk/random-job-generator.php and it gave me blacksmith. Rather archaic, but it works: don't tell me you're a good person and your dog likes you and your mom says you're quite the catch, if you don't craft X horseshoes today, you're not justifying your forge costs or whatever. Same message, probably less aggravating packaging.

    Hope that at least explains my position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I stated, "It's brutal, rude, and borderline sociopathic, and also it is an honest and accurate expression of what the world is going to expect from you." That was the point.
    Except it's a bad point because it's patently dishonest. It's Marie Antoinette saying "let them eat cake"* and being celebrated for it because yeah, why don't those ingrates just eat some damn cake if they're so hungry?

    *I know, and it's irrelevant to this analogy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Except it's a bad point because it's patently dishonest. It's Marie Antoinette saying "let them eat cake"* and being celebrated for it because yeah, why don't those ingrates just eat some damn cake if they're so hungry?

    *I know, and it's irrelevant to this analogy.
    Which part is dishonest? I'm kind of confused here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Which part is dishonest? I'm kind of confused here.
    The actual speech. It's the epitome of "I got mine." The world doesn't care neutrally, Mr. Bigshot doesn't care maliciously.
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    An ex-boyfriend and current friend of mine just offered to be my "dating secretary" and deal with filtering all of the dating site message chaos for me. (He was not entirely serious - a large part of our friendship is built around coming up with deliberately terrible ideas and making plans for them as a form of collaborative humor. The conversation then fell into which cable channel we should try to sell that script to based on what kind of outcome the end of the movie would have.)

    While that's an objectively terrible idea, I'm kind of surprised there isn't more in the way of services like that run by third parties (who are not ex-boyfriends). One of the reasons I'm not on dating sites is because I get easily overwhelmed by unread messages, and I just can't face having another inbox to clear out regularly. I would definitely be willing to pay a small fee to have someone weed out all of the ones that open with genital pictures, short requests for hook-ups, and/or couples looking for an occasional extra woman to get a curated list of the ones who actually read my profile first and said something coherent and appropriate in response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The actual speech. It's the epitome of "I got mine." The world doesn't care neutrally, Mr. Bigshot doesn't care maliciously.
    It is kind of the focus of late 50s and early 60s novels like The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit or The Winter of Our Discontent. Corporate culture demanding the abandonment of identity and family life.

    The Winter of Our Discontent makes the argument most sharply; family life only matters once you are economically thriving. Your internal value matters, but only after the external is established.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    @Algeh: I could do that Sanitizing mailboxes is fun - I already did it once for a friend who did the mistake and entered an adult chatroom (she got some 117 messages during the two minutes) - and I have no problem with deleting genital pictures
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Petsmart. Because no man can get you quite the same way Mr. Toe Beans does.
    Everyone has to eat. So everyone goes to the grocery store. I worked in a grocery store though university, and you see a wide variety of folks that you normally do not see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    No we're not. Hell, the fact that we're not slaves to our every biological whim and urge is what separates us from animals. To claim otherwise is just silly and reductionist.
    We literally are animals. We just have the sentient and tool use feats. We use tools better than our other animal kin, but flesh, bone, and blood are we.

    Can we really make decisions? This is a deep question. Many think that we cannot, and that we just act based on our brains firing one way or the other.

    I tend to think we likely run somewhere in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    No we're not. Hell, the fact that we're not slaves to our every biological whim and urge is what separates us from animals. To claim otherwise is just silly and reductionist.
    But we are. We have a high tenancy to seek out another of the species for biological procreation. It is unusual for us to rather live with a bunch of random guys/gals rather than our biological family . . . because biology. Biology is animal stuff. I don't live with my friends, I live with my wife and kids. It would be unnatural to ignore biology.

    Heavens knows that some folks would rather put up with friends that you pick, rather than your biological family you get placed with, but we don't.

    I would not sacrifice my family for my friends. If I could only save one person: my best friend, or my child. My child lives. If my child needs money for a surgery that would mean bankrupting my family, then we do it . . . not so much for a friend . . . as my child needing food and shelter is a higher priority. Biology is the driving factor here.

    A parent would not care if it was some war hero that saved there life multiple times, or someone who is about to crack the cure for cancer . . . the parent would always choose to save the child. Biology is everyplace.

    Biology controls who we live with, who we spend time with, who we spend money on, who lives, and who dies. It certainly sounds like we are animals bound to our biological instincts.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-07-16 at 10:46 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Update

    So, more SnapChat fun times!

    Woman's story is a black screen with "Can someone pls talk to me" on it.

    I respond with "What's the matter?" because I'm that kind of person. I honestly talk to the people I check out when I'm cashiering, of course I'm going to try to be helpful to someone on my snap.

    She responds with "life". Not much details, but I get it-sometimes, life kicks you while you're down, sometimes you feel like crap, etc.

    So, I ask her "How can I help?"

    Her response? "u can give me$600"

    Now, for a little more context, this is the first time she's ever texted me. I added her from Ok Cupid, with the standard "Hey. Saw you on ok cupid. What's up?" and then messaged her again later when I saw the story.

    Six words in, and she's asking for $600.

    I just...

    Why?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Fishing expedition. She could have a 99.9% failure rate, but if she talks to a thousand people a week that's ~$30k/year. Now the failure rate is likely significantly higher, but that's free money if she can swing it.

    Basically she's being a terrible person (and may not even be a "she," pic was blacked out so it could be literally anyone).
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-07-24 at 10:32 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Fishing expedition. She could have a 99.9% failure rate, but if she talks to a thousand people a week that's ~$30k/year. Now the failure rate is likely significantly higher, but that's free money if she can swing it.

    Basically she's being a terrible person (and may not even be a "she," pic was blacked out so it could be literally anyone).
    Probably, yeah. But gosh darn it, I like people! I want to help people who are feeling down feel better, as best I can.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Probably, yeah. But gosh darn it, I like people! I want to help people who are feeling down feel better, as best I can.
    I imagine giving her (or him) 600 bucks would have probably made them feel better. I know if somebody gave me 600 bucks it would improve my mood tremendously.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: A Bit Of Venting

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Probably, yeah. But gosh darn it, I like people! I want to help people who are feeling down feel better, as best I can.
    That is probably the emotion they are hoping to bank on.

    I would report them for scamming.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    I imagine giving her (or him) 600 bucks would have probably made them feel better. I know if somebody gave me 600 bucks it would improve my mood tremendously.
    We should test this. Everybody give me $600, and I'll report how I feel. To make it scientific, we should use AMFV as the control, so nobody give him any money.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    We should test this. Everybody give me $600, and I'll report how I feel. To make it scientific, we should use AMFV as the control, so nobody give him any money.
    If I could venmo you monopoly money I would do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    You guys are such dorks. :P
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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