MtG: Color Philosophy Thread!

[Zhentarim]

For me, blue has felt like the neutral color to me. Take Jeskai vs Boros for instance—assuming the colors are weighted equally, both seem to be essentially freedom fighters.

[Ninjaman]

White feels left out if you go:

Blue vs Red - Reaction vs Action
Green vs Black - Preservation vs Exploitation


Blue feels left out without a nemesis if you go:

White vs Red - Order vs Chaos
Green vs Black - Life vs Death


Black feels left out if you go:

White vs Red - Restraint vs Emotion
Green vs Blue - Body vs Mind


Red feels left out if you go:

White vs Black - Group vs Individual
Green vs Blue - Tradition vs Innovation

[Androgeus]

For me, blue has felt like the neutral color to me. Take Jeskai vs Boros for instance—assuming the colors are weighted equally, both seem to be essentially freedom fighters.

The Boros Legion are definitely not freedom fighters.

[Lord Raziere]

The Boros Legion are definitely not freedom fighters.

Yeah at best they're cowboy cops. They enforce the law, but either don't always follow procedure, or they get real zealous and passionate about enforcing it and go overboard, with justice sometimes becoming revenge or whatever. basically they're an entire guild of buddy cop shows.

[Karnitis]

So depending on y'alls thoughts, this may go into the overall MtG thread..

I've been looking at building three color decks recently, and it bothers me because it seems like certain two-color pairs dominate regardless of the third.

I dislike Golgari. Nothing personal, but I don't like graveyard effects, they seem too dangerous/unstable for me. But regardless if you go BUG, WBG or BRG, most commanders (not all, I admit) are graveyard players.

I've noticed the same for Izzet. I enjoy Boros, but put together a Narset Jeskai deck, and it will without a doubt be a spellslinger. Same case for BUR.

There could be a mechanical reason they don't want to build Angels w/ scry or a Merfolk Hybrid that adapts w/ discard **sorry, side note, but how great would that be? Adapt 3, but instead of 5 mana, discard 3 cards?**

Anyway, do you think this is a mechanical reason or a philosophical one? Do you think that w/ three-color builds, there are specific two-color parts that always shine stronger?

I am a RUG myself, but practically mono-red. So in my case, the Simic pairing is actually weaker than the 3rd element.

[Ninjaman]

I dislike Golgari. Nothing personal, but I don't like graveyard effects, they seem too dangerous/unstable for me. But regardless if you go BUG, WBG or BRG, most commanders (not all, I admit) are graveyard players.

Out of the 16 Jund commanders, while a lot have dying synergy, only 3 have actual graveyard synergy.

Out of the 11 Sultai commanders, only four have graveyard synergy.

Out of the 7 Abzan commanders, three have graveyard synergy.

I've noticed the same for Izzet. I enjoy Boros, but put together a Narset Jeskai deck, and it will without a doubt be a spellslinger. Same case for BUR.

Jeskai have a lot of spellslingers, being 5 out of 9.

However, out of 18 grixis commanders, 2 are spellslingers.


Jeskai is the only one of these where you might have a point.

There could be a mechanical reason they don't want to build Angels w/ scry or a Merfolk Hybrid that adapts w/ discard **sorry, side note, but how great would that be? Adapt 3, but instead of 5 mana, discard 3 cards?**

An angel that scries isn't Jeskai, and a merfolk that requires discard to adapt isn't Sultai.

Anyway, do you think this is a mechanical reason or a philosophical one? Do you think that w/ three-color builds, there are specific two-color parts that always shine stronger?

Out of the 5 spellslinger Jeskai commanders, 2 are from Tarkir block, and two are from a commander precon build around flashback to enable that deck. Also, 4 out of the 5 are from Tarkir, so it makes sense that they care about spells since Jeskai care about spells. I think that explains a lot of it.
Edit: And if they work off noncreature spells instead of only instant and sorceries that is the white part, because white cares about artifacts and enchantments.

I am a RUG myself, but practically mono-red. So in my case, the Simic pairing is actually weaker than the 3rd element.

Out of the 7 Temur commanders, not a single one is primarily UG.

[Karnitis]

Ha, okay, **** me then

[Zhentarim]

Yeah at best they're cowboy cops. They enforce the law, but either don't always follow procedure, or they get real zealous and passionate about enforcing it and go overboard, with justice sometimes becoming revenge or whatever. basically they're an entire guild of buddy cop shows.

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that they were at least trying to beat back their oppressors and establish their own foothold—or even more basically, holding to a general ideal that everybody should be free. I suppose that’s what blue adds to red/white?

Speaking of, I found this gem:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190105...gged/alignment

This is also a good link:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ith-More-Green!

[Ninjaman]

Speaking of, I found this gem:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190105...gged/alignment

Those are all super cool. I really like the idea, and the execution, of alignment charts from different values.

[Zhentarim]

Those are all super cool. I really like the idea, and the execution, of alignment charts from different values.

I feel like it could be expanded upon, as well.

[Sereg]

That quiz put me as Azorius. I answered all 175 questions and got:

White 401, Blue 347, Black 73, Red 205, Green 233

That's interesting. The low level of Black makes sense. My low black levels and utter hatred of its philosophy, considering it inherently evil (with all opposing arguments sounding like "it's not evil, it's *things that are evil*" to me). That is probably my white nature coming through though. (I define evil as selfishness and good as altruism. I literally consider them different words for identical concepts)

That said, I always saw white as more of an ideal I tried to live up to than something I actually achieved, seeing myself as more Simic. I even studied genetics.

I also am surprised to have a far higher level of blue than green as I am a strict determinist (after the Big Bang, only one timeline became possible) and I dislike stuff like hairdye.

[Ninjaman]

... and I dislike stuff like hairdye.

That might be the weakest argument for being a color I have ever heard.

[Amechra]

If you could pick to eliminate two of the Ravnica guilds, which would you pick (assuming you want the city to function as well as possible)?

I honestly think that the easiest to eliminate are Gruul, Selesnya, and Dimir. Gruul serves very little purpose in the plane, except maybe to prevent the guilds from becoming complacent (and they did that anyway). Selesnya is just a cult: if they were eliminated, the plane would lose some of its national parks... and basically nothing else. Almost nobody knows Dimir exists: if they were gone, most people's lives would continue exactly as they were before.

Compare that to the loss of Azorius or Boros (no government or law), Orzhov (no money), Rakdos (no freedom of speech), and Izzet or Simic (no technology), and I think there is a good case to be made for eliminating those three guilds.

The Gruul technically aren't even really part of the Guild system anymore, since they failed at their original function of "stop the rest of the guilds from paving over the entire Plane". The only reason that they're still around is because the Guildpact doesn't let the other Guilds kill them all off. Similarly, the Rakdos only exist because Big Daddy Rakdos showed up to the Guildpact meeting, and was powerful enough that the other Paruns couldn't just kick him out - saying that removing Rakdos would get rid of free speech is... wrong, unless you directly associate freedom of speech with rioting and mass murder.

I'm sad, though, that I can't say "all of them". The Guild system only works because the Guildpact says it does. Every single guild is deeply corrupt and only vaguely does what they're supposed to do - it'd be best if you eliminated all of them and let the Gateless take over. That being said, if I had to eliminate two of the Guilds, I'd go with Orzhov and Selesnya. Orzhov because they are literally the Mafia pretending to be the Catholic Church, and should not be part of the economy, and Selesnya because we can just give their job to the Gruul.

---

As a side note, I notice that you're eliminating the plane's nature management people (at least, the ones that aren't crazy bio-engineer jerks) - how Ravnican of you. The Raze Boar will consume your innards!

...

What? I'm Gruul-leaning Temur.

[Sereg]

That might be the weakest argument for being a color I have ever heard.

It was meant to illustrate the extremes to which I am against changing what you are born. Because I see it as disrespecting nature and your heritage. I am also against plastic surgery, tattoos, piercings and coloured contacts.

Similarly, I don't believe in the blank slate. Your genes are important, and it is them, and the environment in which you grow in that determines who you are. There was only ever one possible person you could have become and you can't change that no matter how hard you try. Even your wants, desires and ability to exert effort were all predetermined. It's destiny.

(Also, I am pro-nature. And consider plants, animals, fungi, prokaryotes and viruses equal to humans)

Edit: Also, here's the article on purple:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/color-purple-2007-01-29-0

[LansXero]

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that they were at least trying to beat back their oppressors and establish their own foothold—or even more basically, holding to a general ideal that everybody should be free. I suppose that’s what blue adds to red/white?

What opressors? The guilds are pretty autonomous.

Also, blue added to white gives you Azorius, not exactly a paragon of freedon and flexibility. The jeskai are all about tradition, discipline, restraint and self-control, where is the idea of 'blue adds freedom' coming from?

[Zhentarim]

What opressors? The guilds are pretty autonomous.

Also, blue added to white gives you Azorius, not exactly a paragon of freedon and flexibility. The jeskai are all about tradition, discipline, restraint and self-control, where is the idea of 'blue adds freedom' coming from?

I thought blue would add an intellectual component to red/white that would encourage that pairing to be idealistic about creating a societal structure where everybody is free to be themselves.

Then again, the Jeskai put their focus on blue, where as the guys I’m thinking of would put their focus on red, more than likely. Essentially red’s search for freedom but with u/w undertones that make the search for freedom more genteel and codified.

[Zhentarim]

It was meant to illustrate the extremes to which I am against changing what you are born. Because I see it as disrespecting nature and your heritage. I am also against plastic surgery, tattoos, piercings and coloured contacts.

Similarly, I don't believe in the blank slate. Your genes are important, and it is them, and the environment in which you grow in that determines who you are. There was only ever one possible person you could have become and you can't change that no matter how hard you try. Even your wants, desires and ability to exert effort were all predetermined. It's destiny.

(Also, I am pro-nature. And consider plants, animals, fungi, prokaryotes and viruses equal to humans)

Edit: Also, here's the article on purple:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...e-2007-01-29-0

That are some inflammatory controversial ideas. I’d be careful saying that kind of stuff on these forums—it might upset somebody.

[Amechra]

I thought blue would add an intellectual component to red/white that would encourage that pairing to be idealistic about creating a societal structure where everybody is free to be themselves.

Then again, the Jeskai put their focus on blue, where as the guys I’m thinking of would put their focus on red, more than likely. Essentially red’s search for freedom but with u/w undertones that make the search for freedom more genteel and codified.

I mean, Robin Hood and his Merry Men are RW. Kalidesh was all about a bunch of Red-led freedom fighters against a Blue system of oppression. I think Red with White undertones does the "freedom and justice for all" thing just fine, tyvm.

Funnily enough, I think more "main" villains in MTG have been (at least a little) Blue than any other color. The only planes I can think of where the Source Of Everyone's Problems wasn't at least partially Blue were Dominaria, New Phyrexia, Theros, and Zendikar. Seriously, I think Blue outranks Black as a villain color.

[Zhentarim]

I mean, Robin Hood and his Merry Men are RW. Kalidesh was all about a bunch of Red-led freedom fighters against a Blue system of oppression. I think Red with White undertones does the "freedom and justice for all" thing just fine, tyvm.

Funnily enough, I think more "main" villains in MTG have been (at least a little) Blue than any other color. The only planes I can think of where the Source Of Everyone's Problems wasn't at least partially Blue were Dominaria, New Phyrexia, Theros, and Zendikar. Seriously, I think Blue outranks Black as a villain color.

Oddly, enough, Xenegos from Theros struck me as Jund-Aligned rather than Gruul-Aligned. Theros also had Ashiok, which was a secondary villain who was dimir aligned.

[Sereg]

That are some inflammatory controversial ideas. I’d be careful saying that kind of stuff on these forums—it might upset somebody.

Yeah, sorry. I realise my opinions are often very controversial. (That said, it makes sense you'd say that as you are Black in MtG terms. And Black and myself are about as opposed as it is possible to be. I view that philosophy as poison or cancer)

In any event, those are pretty Green ideas (and pretty anti-blue), are they not?

[Gaius Hermicus]

The Gruul technically aren't even really part of the Guild system anymore, since they failed at their original function of "stop the rest of the guilds from paving over the entire Plane". The only reason that they're still around is because the Guildpact doesn't let the other Guilds kill them all off. Similarly, the Rakdos only exist because Big Daddy Rakdos showed up to the Guildpact meeting, and was powerful enough that the other Paruns couldn't just kick him out - saying that removing Rakdos would get rid of free speech is... wrong, unless you directly associate freedom of speech with rioting and mass murder.

I'm sad, though, that I can't say "all of them". The Guild system only works because the Guildpact says it does. Every single guild is deeply corrupt and only vaguely does what they're supposed to do - it'd be best if you eliminated all of them and let the Gateless take over. That being said, if I had to eliminate two of the Guilds, I'd go with Orzhov and Selesnya. Orzhov because they are literally the Mafia pretending to be the Catholic Church, and should not be part of the economy, and Selesnya because we can just give their job to the Gruul.

---

As a side note, I notice that you're eliminating the plane's nature management people (at least, the ones that aren't crazy bio-engineer jerks) - how Ravnican of you. The Raze Boar will consume your innards!

...

What? I'm Gruul-leaning Temur.

Well, I definitely agree with you on the Gruul aspect. They are irrelevant. (And this is not a personal bias, as I am a heavily Gruul-leaning Jund. Hail to the Raze-Boar!) I do, however, think that WotC has been doing a good job of fleshing out Rakdos in the recent sets. At least in my interpretation, there are different levels of Rakdos membership. While there certainly are some absolute lunatics in the guild, the majority of the people attending its meetings are associated with other guilds, or with no guild at all. They are there because the Rakdos permit all sorts of personal freedoms that the other guilds do not. Of course they are a bit extreme about those freedoms! Every guild on the plane is too extreme in their ideology. But the point is that most people become spectators to the Rakdos scene because it is a way of rejecting the insane bureaucracies and binding restrictions of the rest of the plane.

Do I think it is a good thing that Rakdos is the only outlet for such pent-up aggression at the system? (And no, Gruul doesn't count. They are far too inaccessible to the majority of the population.) Of course it isn't a good thing! But the fact of the matter is, Rakdos actually acts as a control on aggression against society. If Rakdos did not exist to provide an outlet, there'd be a major riot against the Guildpact every week.

I'd be fine with kicking the Orzhov. However, they are by far the wealthiest guild in the plane, and it seems likely that they own, in some way or another, a sizable proportion of the city. Without the Orzhov keeping it running, I think it quite likely that there would be a large-scale collapse of the pecuniary system of Ravnica, with hundreds of banks going bankrupt and closing shop.

Either that, or the Dimir just take over the whole thing. Which I think we can all agree would be a very, very bad thing.

[Amechra]

Well, I definitely agree with you on the Gruul aspect. They are irrelevant. (And this is not a personal bias, as I am a heavily Gruul-leaning Jund. Hail to the Raze-Boar!) I do, however, think that WotC has been doing a good job of fleshing out Rakdos in the recent sets. At least in my interpretation, there are different levels of Rakdos membership. While there certainly are some absolute lunatics in the guild, the majority of the people attending its meetings are associated with other guilds, or with no guild at all. They are there because the Rakdos permit all sorts of personal freedoms that the other guilds do not. Of course they are a bit extreme about those freedoms! Every guild on the plane is too extreme in their ideology. But the point is that most people become spectators to the Rakdos scene because it is a way of rejecting the insane bureaucracies and binding restrictions of the rest of the plane.

Do I think it is a good thing that Rakdos is the only outlet for such pent-up aggression at the system? (And no, Gruul doesn't count. They are far too inaccessible to the majority of the population.) Of course it isn't a good thing! But the fact of the matter is, Rakdos actually acts as a control on aggression against society. If Rakdos did not exist to provide an outlet, there'd be a major riot against the Guildpact every week.

I'd be fine with kicking the Orzhov. However, they are by far the wealthiest guild in the plane, and it seems likely that they own, in some way or another, a sizable proportion of the city. Without the Orzhov keeping it running, I think it quite likely that there would be a large-scale collapse of the pecuniary system of Ravnica, with hundreds of banks going bankrupt and closing shop.

Either that, or the Dimir just take over the whole thing. Which I think we can all agree would be a very, very bad thing.

The only reason the Ravnican economy hasn't crashed and burned is because the Guildpact encodes "the Guilds are the absolute best people to be running things" as a metaphysical law. That's the only explanation I can see for why the Orzhov's blatantly horrible banking practices haven't screwed them over. Dimir would actually be a better choice, as far as most of the city is concerned, because they aren't interested in the Gateless. They're already really good at hiding their sanity-breaking aspects, and they aren't hyper-profit-seeking like the Orzhov. At worst, you'd lose a few memories or get some kind of hypnotic suggestion implanted, instead of "we literally own your soul now you'll be our slave forever lol".

My take on the Gruul and Rakdos is that WotC messed up when they originally assigned the guilds' roles. Rakdos were originally "all of the working class people, who are also sadistic violent jerks because demon cultists", and only turned into gore-and-circuses Rakdos with RTR. I think it would've been better if Gruul had been the working-class Guild, with Rakdos serving as the entertainment sector. You could still have the Gruul as a hostile Guild - seriously, can you really see Azorius or Boros working well with unions? Gruul would just have, you know, more of a reason to exist.

EDIT: Here's a question - as the Living Guildpact, could Jace "reassign" a Guild's role in things, or is he just there to stabilize the pre-existing pact?

[Zhentarim]

Yeah, sorry. I realise my opinions are often very controversial. (That said, it makes sense you'd say that as you are Black in MtG terms. And Black and myself are about as opposed as it is possible to be. I view that philosophy as poison or cancer)

In any event, those are pretty Green ideas (and pretty anti-blue), are they not?

Yes.

I find it funny that green claims to be fine with the nature of the world, then gets upset with the nature of the world, which is inherently a greedy, selfish, constantly evolving nature.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...aos-2014-08-28

Shifting to wedges, I wish I could find more lore on these dragons.

[Sereg]

Yes.

I find it funny that green claims to be fine with the nature of the world, then gets upset with the nature of the world, which is inherently a greedy, selfish, constantly evolving nature.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...aos-2014-08-28

Shifting to wedges, I wish I could find more lore on these dragons.

Well, again, Black would think that.

Firstly, the existence of things that don't fit that description proves there's nothing "inherent" about it.

Secondly, at least speaking for myself (admittedly, not a pure green, according to this test only having it as a tertiary colour), that is oversimplified to the point of wrong.

Why?

1. I am NOT fine with the nature of the world, but I acknowledge it, instead of pretending that it is actually what I want it to be.

2. That said, I want to preserve the contents of the world, as much as possible, instead of allowing them to be replaced.

3. This means that supporting those who care for the collective whole instead of deliberately screwing over others for their own benefit.

4. Usually (but not always), that means supporting the older stuff that has proven itself by having not destroyed everything else.

5. We admit that greedy, selfish, destructive things have such characteristics as their nature, but they are harmful to the system as a whole, and thus should not be allowed to be part of it.

(Naturally, these opinions are heavily "coloured" by my other two colours)


Edit: Also, yes, it would be nice to learn more about those dragons.