Arrows and why they matter?

[Pex]

And for the people who don't share your enthusiasm it is tedious and that doesn't make them power gamers or min/maxers.

Not that there's anything wrong with being a power gamer or min/maxer.

[tsotate]

Not only does tracking ammo disadvantage ranged players over melee, but it disadvantage specific types of ranged players more than others. Rogue sneak attack is designed to be on-par with extra attack classes like the fighter. Making players track ammo just pushes them toward archer rogues, who use only a quarter as many arrows as their fighter counterparts.

[JellyPooga]

This is my take on the subject.

1) Tracking ammo is in the rules.
2) I play by the rules and expect those I play with to as well.
3) Track your damn arrows.

Put it this way; D&D (as others have pointed out) is full of various minutiae to track; HP, gold, spell slots, etc. and you only track the things that are important to you. Non-EK Fighters don't track spell slots, but a Battlemaster will track his Superiority Dice, for example. He's taken the choice to play a Battlemaster and with that, the choice to track such things as required. If you've chosen to play a character that uses ammo, I (as a player and/or GM) will expect you've also made the choice to track ammo, just as if you'd chosen to play a Wizard or Battlemaster.

I'm not going to give a 20 Con Hill Dwarf Barbarian leeway on not tracking his HP "because he has so many it doesn't matter". I'm not going to assume the level 17 Wizard always has a low-level spell slot available, even though he has dozens and can recharge them on a short rest. I'm not going to assume a character always has a full waterskin, even if the party has a Cleric with Create/Destroy Water prepared. These are all part of the game we have signed up to play, so abide by the unspoken contract and play the game. If you don't like it, get someone to track it for you, use an app, a tally sheet or whatever, but if you really can't be dealing with this aspect of the game, then play a different character or play a different game.

And seriously; for all those saying it's unecessary and time-consuming bookeeping, it's as simple as having a tally sheet. 20 little lines on a page, in ink, that you can knock off in pencil and then erase when you get a chance to refilll that quiver. It's literally a fraction of a second during your turn. No more time "wasted" than any other part of your turn, unless your character uses no limited resources (spells, superiority dice, etc.).

[napoleon_in_rag]

Ranged combat has huge advantages over melee. Especially when you factor in cover. Unless you are playing in a featureless desert, you should be able to get half cover if not 3/4 cover on every encounter.

I don't see tracking the number of arrows as a hardship. It's no worse than hp.

[Tanarii]

I don't see tracking the number of arrows as a hardship. It's no worse than hp.

I keep seeing this argument, and as much as generally like the idea of logistics tracking, I don't think it holds much water. Remembering to change the value or pick up your pencil and make a tick mark once as part of every single attack is considerably more likely to be overlooked than updating hp after a damage die is rolled.

It's having the minor little thing that's part of a large thing, and in a slightly annoying way, that makes it a hardship. The fact it's a small little action but has to occur frequently makes the situation more annoying, not less.

Honestly the best solution I've seen from players of frequent archers is a pile of glass markers or counters from a game in front of them representing their quiver right next to their attack die, and right before they pick up the d20 they just slide one to a discard pile each time. Then slide half back into the quiver pile after combat. The pile reminds them they need to take the action in the first place.

[Kyutaru]

We simply use those Warhammer dice buckets full of D6s. The arrows deal d6 dmg and can be rolled alongside the attack. Once you run out of arrows from your quiver, you are out of arrows.

[Christian]

We simply use those Warhammer dice buckets full of D6s. The arrows deal d6 dmg and can be rolled alongside the attack. Once you run out of arrows from your quiver, you are out of arrows.

Whoa--that's brilliant. That's like Tanarii's solution, but totally folded into the attack resolution activity. It has the downside that you need to have enough dice on hand to represent your quiver, but most gamers have piles of dice available ...

[noob]

Whoa--that's brilliant. That's like Tanarii's solution, but totally folded into the attack resolution activity. It has the downside that you need to have enough dice on hand to represent your quiver, but most gamers have piles of dice available ...

so now for playing boltdwarf you need to buy a few thousand dice?

[Mellack]

Whoa--that's brilliant. That's like Tanarii's solution, but totally folded into the attack resolution activity. It has the downside that you need to have enough dice on hand to represent your quiver, but most gamers have piles of dice available ...

That is a great idea, but most archer focused characters I see use longbows. People tend to have a lot fewer d8's than d6's, and our archers tended to carry two quivers if they shoot a lot or have special arrows they want access to. I still like that though.

When it is easy to refill, such as having many more on a mount, cart, or extra-dimension, I don't see the reason to bother counting. The same as I wouldn't make someone mark off hit points if say a trap were going to do a d6 damage to a character on the way into their camp as they were about to take a long rest.

[JellyPooga]

Remembering to change the value or pick up your pencil and make a tick mark once as part of every single attack is considerably more likely to be overlooked than updating hp after a damage die is rolled.

I take issue with this assertion. My question is "why?". Why is it more likely that ammo is more likely to be overlooked than updating hp? I mean;

- I'd rather run out of ammo than hp, so that puts paid to any intentional oversight (aka: cheating...because let's not beat about the bush; not tracking ammo is as against the rules as not tracking your HP).

- It's not like you can forget that you're using ammo; you're actively using it. Constantly. Unlike the Wizard who forgets to knock off a spell slot when casting a spell after spamming cantrips all session, an archer or crossbowmans default action is literally "use ammo". Maybe the "infrequent archer" who only makes ranged attacks every now and then has an excuse to forget, but even then, the unusual act of choosing to go ranged instead of whatever they'd normally do, including whatever limiting circumstances enabled that decision, makes forgetting unlikely.

- The effort involved is typically less. HP boxes tend toward the small side of things on a character sheet; most I've seen force you to either write really small or erase and rewrite. Especially compared to, say, ammo trackers; usually an easy-to-use tally sheet of boxes or checks, usually in convenient quiver sized quantities and/or equipment sections. Erasing and rewriting numbers for HP is much more effort than ticking off a box or making a note in your kit. Yes, after the dust has cleared, there's some upkeep to do re: replenishing quivers, updating kit-lists, etc, but at least it's not happening in the middle of combat; you'll rarely hear someone saying "Give me a minute guys, I just need to check off my ammo", whilst "Hold on guys, my HP box just wore through...again" is a staple of most long campaigns I've played in.

[Chronos]

The fact that you're using ammo constantly is why it's more of a pain to track. My ranger very often goes for an entire battle, even one where some other party member is downed, without a scratch. When he takes any damage at all, it's notable, and there's a whole interaction devoted to the fact that he took damage. But he uses a couple of arrows nearly every single round of combat (basically, every round except when he's casting Spike Growth).

And yet, despite taking damage being so much rarer than using arrows, he's much more likely to be taken out of a fight by damage than by running out of arrows. And if I feel that the chance of running out of arrows is still too high, I can just buy double or triple the amount. I can't just double or triple my HP.

Tracking arrows is both more work and makes less difference than tracking HP.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Tracking arrows is both more work and makes less difference than tracking HP.

Amen. It also pushes people to dipping Warlock 2 for EB spam. Because it's arrows, just no ammo.

[Willie the Duck]

I take issue with this assertion. My question is "why?". Why is it more likely that ammo is more likely to be overlooked than updating hp? I mean;

Look, we're at the chicken and egg point here. The "why" is because something is interesting and it is interesting because the DM and gaming group make it interesting. Re-imaging the game such that tracking hit points isn't interesting (at least in a combat-centric game) requires active effort. On the other hand, making tracking arrows interesting takes active work.

- I'd rather run out of ammo than hp, so that puts paid to any intentional oversight (aka: cheating...because let's not beat about the bush; not tracking ammo is as against the rules as not tracking your HP).

Let's not beat around the bush--no one else is talking about cheating. Mind you, we could be, I suppose. But I'm pretty sure everyone else is talking about not tracking ammo as part of house rules/table culture/collective agreement/whatever you want to call it. If player A thinks this is a 'just throw money at the weapon shop every time we visit town'-type of game, player B thinks it is a 'don't worry about it at all'-type game, player C things it is a 'track ammo religiously'-type game, and the DM thinks one or none of these players is correct, then that is a communication issue.

- The effort involved is typically less. HP boxes tend toward the small side of things on a character sheet; most I've seen force you to either write really small or erase and rewrite. Especially compared to, say, ammo trackers; usually an easy-to-use tally sheet of boxes or checks, usually in convenient quiver sized quantities and/or equipment sections. Erasing and rewriting numbers for HP is much more effort than ticking off a box or making a note in your kit. Yes, after the dust has cleared, there's some upkeep to do re: replenishing quivers, updating kit-lists, etc, but at least it's not happening in the middle of combat; you'll rarely hear someone saying "Give me a minute guys, I just need to check off my ammo", whilst "Hold on guys, my HP box just wore through...again" is a staple of most long campaigns I've played in.

For both HP and ammo (when we've tracked it) we've always used the small-sized sticky-notes for such things. HP boxes or the tiny little ammo boxes pre-made character sheets tend to have just always end up becoming grey-black smears, regardless of what time of pencil and eraser you use.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: I would remind people that someone prefering a different playstyle is not an attack on you, nor an example of badwrongfun.

[CorporateSlave]

I suppose I find that keeping a little 20: written on my character sheet that I make a couple of tick marks next to every time I fire off a couple shots just somehow doesn't feel like any trouble to me, much less game crushing tedium and bother. (And I've gotta say, I am really liking the idea of a dice cup "quiver" with arrows or bolts as d6 or d8, with perhaps different colors for the silvered, magic, etc arrows! It's easy enough to buy a few spare d8 on eBay or wherever nowadays. But then again, I like keeping track.)

I've also been in campaigns with PC's using guns, and while the DM didn't much bother enforcing arrows and bolts, he was BIG on enforcing reloading those things. So to me it seemed only fair I keep track as well, and in the end found it easy and ultimately adding an enjoyable element of tension to the game.

One thing I like about 5e is the limits placed on equipment, like 3 attunement slots. I feel like ammunition fits in here as well. I know 5e is a game of home-brew, but I suspect that some things such as ammunition and encumbrance are factored into the game balance (after all, there are an awful lot of magic items that are essentially meaningless unless you're using those rules). You have 200+ arrows in your Bag Of Holding? Well after 20 shots that will be an Action to refill your quiver. Unless of course you've a Quiver of Elhona, then its 60. No Bag Of Holding? Drop your pack to stay mobile a fight...hope that sneaky goblin doesn't snatch it and run off! But if you're player's fun is limited to the dice rolling of the hack and slash they're optimized for (and why shouldn't it be, as was said nothing wrong with being a power gamer) they probably won't like it.

EDIT: One other thing, as far as "why they matter" 200+ standard arrows might seem tedious to track, but a quiver holds 20, and as a DM I would absolutely make players track if what they actually have is:
200 mundane arrows
40 Arrows +1
40 Silvered Arrows
20 Arrows of Giant Slaying
10 Arrows of Dragon Slaying
10 Unbreakable Arrows
20 Arrows +2
5 Arrows +3
10 Arrows they just coated with Oil of Sharpness
5 Arrows they just coated with Poison

I would want to know which are the 20 they have in their quiver at the moment, and which are buried in a Bag of Holding.

[zinycor]

Except you're only allowed to wear a single quiver at a time. Reloading would constitute digging through your oversized knapsack for yet another one. With how higher level arrow feats in past editions encouraged arrow spam and how 2nd edition had you firing up to 10 shots per round with buffs, running out was a real concern.

Even if that were true, (And I don't remember any rules saying that you can only have one quiver ready) it would very unlikely for a quiver to get emptied in the middle of a combat

[PhoenixPhyre]

Even if that were true, (And I don't remember any rules saying that you can only have one quiver ready) it would very unlikely for a quiver to get emptied in the middle of a combat

Rangers and volley. Or a fighter who action surges. Both will drain quivers real fast. Or drawn-out fights.

[stoutstien]

Not only does tracking ammo disadvantage ranged players over melee, but it disadvantage specific types of ranged players more than others. Rogue sneak attack is designed to be on-par with extra attack classes like the fighter. Making players track ammo just pushes them toward archer rogues, who use only a quarter as many arrows as their fighter counterparts.

This may be the first time anyone has made the argument that ranged focused characters are in anyway at a disadvantage to melee.

It's not hard to have each party member carry extra quivers if you are worried about running out. What's a pound in the end.

Also removing tracking arrows removes the ablity to award players with magic items like the quiver of ehlonna or other magic items that can be a boon for archers/ weapon throwing characters.

[zinycor]

probbably a non-magic weapon, together with other equipment not spec'd to tank, together with a lack of feast, fighting style, etc ...

Sorry, but by this logic, we can just kick out the at-will cantrips, and revert back to the "good lod days" where low level wizards used light crossbows.

... funny how you don't see anyone arguing THAT was good design.

You haven't seen anyone arguing that? I see it constantly, and I don't think it would be too bad.

[TheSchleus]

Honestly I think this is the same as tracking any other kind of logistics. Either your supplies are limited and it matters, or they aren't and they don't. And both are fun in their own way, it just comes down to a question of what kind of game you're playing. Making the archer track his arrows while no other logistics are tracked seems silly, but it's not like having limited arrows is some terrible thing that makes archers bad. A 5e archer is weaker in melee but the way the game is set up they should be fine and even be pretty decent off-tanks, and there are advantages to being ranged so if sometimes you're weaker that's okay. (I'm also noticing a few people seem to not see archers as having much advantage over melee and I'm wondering if that's a game type thing as well. If enemies are easily able to attack your archer and you aren't fighting enemies it's hard to get into melee with and things like that, maybe being ranged doesn't really have an advantage.)

[Kyutaru]

Some logistics measures have been incorporated into magic already. Food and water can be summoned. Some chores can be prestidigitation handled. Unseen Servant is a ritual. Mage hand replaces many functions of the 10-foot pole without needing to figure out where it is at all times.

Arrows on the other hand have no such spell. Keep tracking arrows.

[Mellack]

Some logistics measures have been incorporated into magic already. Food and water can be summoned. Some chores can be prestidigitation handled. Unseen Servant is a ritual. Mage hand replaces many functions of the 10-foot pole without needing to figure out where it is at all times.

Arrows on the other hand have no such spell. Keep tracking arrows.

Unless you literally lose the arrow, (wounded creature gets away, lands in swift river, etc) I would argue that mending should fix any of your arrows used.

[Kyutaru]

Unless you literally lose the arrow, (wounded creature gets away, lands in swift river, etc) I would argue that mending should fix any of your arrows used.

Arrows being retrievable most of the time with a chance of breaking on impact is something as old as 2nd edition. Monster corpses in old computer games would even have some of the arrows you used still on them. But by the mending logic, you can spend time each day to create an infinite number of arrows by breaking them in half and repairing each half.

[Willie the Duck]

Arrows being retrievable most of the time with a chance of breaking on impact is something as old as 2nd edition. Monster corpses in old computer games would even have some of the arrows you used still on them. But by the mending logic, you can spend time each day to create an infinite number of arrows by breaking them in half and repairing each half.

For reference:

At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.

Mending [/I]spell]This spell repairs a single break or tear in an object you touch, such as broken chain link, two halves of a broken key, a torn clack, or a leaking wineskin. As long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension, you mend it, leaving no trace of the former damage.

Technically speaking, the Mending spell would not do that (it breaks a repair, not makes a whole arrow out of a half of one), OTOH, it's also not specified that the arrows not recovered are such because they are broken. I think we're well into DM-interpretation land.

[Vogie]

Even if that were true, (And I don't remember any rules saying that you can only have one quiver ready) it would very unlikely for a quiver to get emptied in the middle of a combat

If you always start at 20. It's common to fire 3-5 shots/turn for any of the ranged classes, between extra attack and Crossbow expert's bonus action hand crossbow attack. Fighters have action surge & extra attack multipliers alongside various subclass features; Hunter Rangers have the Horde breaker & Volley features.

A level 15 Samurai with a Hand crossbow can take 5 attacks each turn without breaking a sweat, due to crossbow expert and Rapid Strike, for a total of 8 arrows fired in 6 seconds if they use action surge, and jumping to 10 arrows a turn at level 20.

A Volley from an 11th level hunter ranger can hit potentially 16 targets - provided they're all in a 20ft cube ("any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range"), as a pair of 5 ft squares in all directions from a point. If they have Horde Breaker, and there's a target within 5 ft of a hit target that isn't in that zone... that grows it to 17 targets

1	2	3	4
5	6	7	8
9	10	11	12
13	14	15	16

And there's a discussion of the wording on Swift Quiver to contend with. RAW wording makes it sound like it's only providing free ammo for the 2 bonus action attacks, while others think it gives essentially free ammo for the duration.

[Misterwhisper]

I solved this problem by just making a cheap magic item.

Ring of arrows 50g

Whenever you pull back a bow while wearing this ring on your drawing hand, an arrow appears nocked in place. This arrow disappears at the end of the round.

If every caster can just go, oh I have a focus for this or a pouch so I just ignore components, 50g for infinite basic arrows is fine

[Pex]

In the Avengers movies Hawkeye ran out of arrows once. It was a funny moment for the audience. It never happened nor spoken as a possibility to happen again. That's how it's like in the game. For that one encounter you run out of arrows uh oh what do you do now, it's tension but a fun tension of play. As the archer player you might even laugh at the situation yourself. As a repeated thing it's frustration.

[Kyutaru]

In the Avengers movies Hawkeye ran out of arrows once. It was a funny moment for the audience. It never happened nor spoken as a possibility to happen again. That's how it's like in the game. For that one encounter you run out of arrows uh oh what do you do now, it's tension but a fun tension of play. As the archer player you might even laugh at the situation yourself. As a repeated thing it's frustration.

I guess Hawkeye is smart enough not to make the same mistake twice.

[Snails]

As someone who has literally tracked the weight of every item on my PC down to the last copper penny, it is not that I am unwilling to track something like arrows.

I do strongly believe that (1) this kind of detail does not make the game more fun for most players, (2) the problem is trivially solvable for >99.9% of combats that are likely to be seen at the gaming table, so adding this level of detail is just slowing the game down.

"Oh, DM, I salvage my arrows. Should I roll for how many are broken or will you?"
"Oh, DM, I pick up arrows from my fallen foes. How many exactly?"
"Oh, DM, I top off my quiver from arrows the dwarf is carrying for me."
"Oh, DM, I carry two quivers. Doesn't say anything about the number of quivers I can carry, right?"
"Oh, DM, my wizard friend helps repair some broken arrows with Mending. How many does he repair?"
"Oh, DM, I sit around the camp fire, and repair arrows. How does fletchery work in this game, again?"
"Oh, DM, is anyone in this bandit camp selling arrows?"
"Oh, DM, do crabman arrows work with my bow?"
"Oh, DM, can the ranger scout for a ready source of straight sticks for shafts?"
"Oh, DM, which part of the arrow is broken? The head, the shaft, or the feathering? Because I have some supplies for some of these."

Does this kind of interaction every in game day, after every combat make for a more fun game?

[Snails]

In the Avengers movies Hawkeye ran out of arrows once. It was a funny moment for the audience. It never happened nor spoken as a possibility to happen again. That's how it's like in the game. For that one encounter you run out of arrows uh oh what do you do now, it's tension but a fun tension of play. As the archer player you might even laugh at the situation yourself. As a repeated thing it's frustration.

This kind of reasoning applies equally well to blobs of bat guano. Maybe the PC wizards runs out? Maybe the NPC wizard runs out? Seeing the BBEG reach for the spell pouch and say "Uh Oh" could be a wonderful dramatic moment.

As I said elsewhere, as a player I do not have a whit of a problem with tracking this stuff myself. But I do believe as a matter of gaming philosophy, that a DM that believes that things like arrow tracking make the game better should follow through and act as if it were true.