Sincerely interested. Rant

[denthor]

Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Honestly it is the most complicated thing to play. Picking your spell for each day. Only to find out your wrong retreat and choose again. You can not stand very much in the way of damage. Your very limited at low levels you come on line around 7th or 8th. Long time to invest with low payout.

As a player we someone show up I played 5e. I want to run a wizard. Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts.

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.

Explain this please!

[zinycor]

Ok.

First, there is no setting In the game for difficulty, so as a player you don't really know ahead of time if certain class is harder to play than any other, it might be, it might not.

Second, maybe the player just wants to role-play as a powerful caster, but doesn't really care for the mechanics of it.

Third, just teach the player the mechanics related to the game and he will have to abide by them, or play another class.

[denthor]

Your being reasonable when it happens with 6 people out of 8. I am wondering why. Do not care if they come back most do not. When they find out we want the spells for the day/battle written out. Your spell book written out.

I like the table I play at gritty difficult we play do it right or character dead.

Is this not the case at other tables. Are DMs really easy?

[Lord of Shadows]

Is this not the case at other tables. Are DMs really easy?

Unfortunately, some are...

Plus, some people who decide to try TTRPGs come in with pre-conceived ideas on how things should work based on other things - computer/console games, comics, anime, movies, etc. When the "real world" of the game turns out to not be like that, they get frustrated and decide to go do something else.
.

[zinycor]

Your being reasonable when it happens with 6 people out of 8. I am wondering why. Do not care if they come back most do not. When they find out we want the spells for the day/battle written out. Your spell book written out.

Haven't seen that problem, in my experience new players get the gist of the game quite quickly.

I would just explain to them that the game has rules, and this magic system has proven to work for this particular game and there is no plans to change it at your table. Take some more time to explain the rules and be patient and understanding of their mistakes, and you should be allright

[Kaptin Keen]

Your being reasonable when it happens with 6 people out of 8.

6 out of 8 sounds unreasonably high. Looking at it from the perspective of statistics only, it might be that the common factor here is you.

I don't know you, but from your post it seems you have .. some opinions about what people should play. And it's not like I'm blind to the argument. Spellcasters do take more work to play right than say, a barbarian. But if a new player feels a wizard is what he wants to play, you should help him play a wizard, not tell him to play something else.

People play these games for the sense of wonder and magic and stuff. You really can't define for them that they should get those things from a simpler class. But you can make the class they feel like playing, simpler for them.

[Khedrac]

Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Answer: Because for first-time players they have no idea about game and rules complexity - they are thinking about what type of character they want to play (which is a good thing for new players to be thinking about).

As a player we someone show up I played 5e. I want to run a wizard. Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts.

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.

Explain this please!

There's a good chance they don't know what the in game difference between the two - and are choosing the class name which fits their mental image.

Honestly it is the most complicated thing to play.

This depends on the system. Yes, D&D wizards are hard to play well (and sorcerers are much easier), but in 3.5 unless you are good at mental arithmetic, fighters are the hardest to play for most players (90% of the players I play with will power attack for whatever temporary bonuses they have "to hit" to keep the maths simple).

[denthor]

6 out of 8 sounds unreasonably high. Looking at it from the perspective of statistics only, it might be that the common factor here is you.

I don't know you, but from your post it seems you have .. some opinions about what people should play. And it's not like I'm blind to the argument. Spellcasters do take more work to play right than say, a barbarian. But if a new player feels a wizard is what he wants to play, you should help him play a wizard, not tell him to play something else.

People play these games for the sense of wonder and magic and stuff. You really can't define for them that they should get those things from a simpler class. But you can make the class they feel like playing, simpler for them.

Yes after 25 years I have opinions. We have one person at the table who helps with character. They send them to him he take 3 to 4 hours to craft min/max the ever loving sh out of the character. 7 intelligence high dex. These people end up not liking the 1 trick pony. I can design in real life my charisma is low so they do not come to me.

Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe. Got really good by phone.

When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.

[zinycor]

Yes after 25 years I have opinions. We have one person at the table who helps with character. They send them to him he take 3 to 4 hours to craft min/max the ever loving sh out of the character. 7 intelligence high dex. These people end up not liking the 1 trick pony. I can design in real life my charisma is low so they do not come to me.

Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe. Got really good by phone.

When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.

Well, I for one don't pick my characters based on the difficulty of playing them. And haven't really seem many people do so.

As an advice you Could work together with the min maxing guy and try to make a character that the new player would like.

[Satinavian]

Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

a) Because magic users tend to be great at "doing things beside fighting", which i enjoy.

b) Because most iconic phantastic concepts with some sort of supernatural power are best realized with a magic user, so a lot of possible character inspirations end there

c) Because the magic system is usually something unique to the system while the non magic classic feel more or less the same as in most other systems, they just use some new rules to do exactly the same stuff.

[Kaptin Keen]

Yes after 25 years I have opinions. We have one person at the table who helps with character. They send them to him he take 3 to 4 hours to craft min/max the ever loving sh out of the character. 7 intelligence high dex. These people end up not liking the 1 trick pony. I can design in real life my charisma is low so they do not come to me.

Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe. Got really good by phone.

When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.

For someone who claims to be sincerely interested, you don't seem to listen very much to what's being said. Min/maxing isn't helping - it is, very specifically, min/maxing, and only helpful if min/maxing is what is being asked for.

If you want to help someone unfamiliar with the rules, you start by asking them what type of character they'd like to play. Not what class, that's only helpful to someone who already knows.

So they answer I want to play a mighty wizard! because they've watched too much Lord of the Rings, and you explain to them well, there are two types of arcane spell casters, wizard and sorcerers. They each work like this.

And so on. And when you get it right, you know righ away, because it's when you don't need to go online and post threads like this one.

[D+1]

Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Honestly it is the most complicated thing to play.

The answer, of course, is you wouldn't (or at least shouldn't). If you've never played the game and it's your first character, then you're only making it harder to LEARN the game by picking the most complicated character to play. Others at the table who actually care if you ever come back to play some more should make their first piece of advice to you to choose a character class that is SIMPLE to play. You can then learn by doing in playing your simple PC while learning by observing other more complicated classes by observing and asking questions. You should also tell new players that no matter what class they choose to start with they have a players rule book with about 300 pages of rules. Even if you can disregard HALF of that it's still a huge amount of reading and learning that you're committing to in the long term.

Think of it like learning to swim. You don't start with a dive into the deep end because finding you then struggle to keep your head above water is likely to put you off swimming for the rest of your now very short life. You enter from the shallow end and learn to swim by first learning to float without actually being out of depth.

Or eating food. If you insist on biting off the biggest chunk of the game as possible to start with then you must also accept that you're going to choke, spit things out once or twice, and find it difficult to chew and swallow before you're one day ready to eat 74 hot dogs in 10 minutes.

[zinycor]

shortened for quote

I completely disagree, the whole appeal of role-playing games is that you get to play a whole other character of your choice. That goes against the idea of forbidding certain classes to new players.

I say make the player know that certain classes require more work, dedication or study, help them on the more complex mechanics and be inviting for the new player to explore the game and mechanics.

[icefractal]

I'd disagree that new players should go with Fighter. Especially not if they're building the character themselves - Fighter is very easy to end up being nigh-useless if you're not familiar with the feats available. And the narrowness of its capabilities can be very frustrating for a player who wants to do more social / non-combat stuff.

For being a "mage type" in 3.5, I'd say that Warlock is an easy start, but actually Sorcerer isn't bad if someone helps with choosing your spells known. The advantage of casters is that for most spells, you don't really need to optimize a bunch of feats and items coming together to make it good - Black Tentacles, for example, just does what it does, and even if you picked all your character options out of a hat, at least that one will work like it's supposed to.

Exception: Blaster mages have more need to Voltron **** together. This makes them one of the least newbie-friendly types, which is too bad because they're one of the more likely for people to gravitate to, IME.

[graymagiker]

I think you've answered your own question.

Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Emphasis mine.

They've never played the game so they don't know that it's more complicated than other classes/options. And really, why should they? From other replies, it seems you are playing specifically 5e but have experienced this problem in other editions. It is not a requirement, or even common, that certain options be either more powerful or harder to play.

When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.

You acknowledge that most people do not seek the easiest option to play. We don't play games, especially not TTRPG, in order for things to be easy. Instead, you might ask why do new players think that magic user/ mage/wizard whatever will be the most fun to play? Do you always play fighters or other classes? Do your experienced players?

I will also highlight this tidbit:

Do not care if they come back most do not.

So there is no problem. They play once, decide they don't like your table, and don't come back. The problem solves itself, unless you do care and you think they would be more likely to return if they played another class.

[KineticDiplomat]

Given you're playing D&D, why wouldn't a new player come in as a magic user?

1) The setting is about magic. Loads of magic. Magic critters, magic people, magic plotlines. The big bad and the big good come from magic, and magic is the source of all cool things. Most of the tactical options revolve around how and what to magic. There is every single setting incentive you could imagine to play as a magic user.

2) If he did any cursory glances at the internet, he would quickly see that D&D classes mostly fall in the "Unbelievably awesome, kinda good, and utter crap" piles of how useful they are in a fight. And since D&D has little reward for being crap in a fight - you won't say, be a hacker or scholar or face - to pick a "lesser" class may seem disheartening. Especially since what little reward there is pales next to the constant string of encounters where you fight. The "unbelievably awesome" crowd are all mostly...magic users.

2b) Virtually every "skill" class is replaceable with utility spells. Why would a new player opt for planned obsolescence?

3) D&D martials are mind-numbingly boring. You roll a hit die and a damage die a round until someone falls over. As the game goes on you get to...wait for it...roll more dice with higher modifiers. Whereas magic users get to shape reality, control the battlefield, solve magical puzzles, apply lateral thinking on what to do with their range of fantastical abilities. You get to umm...roll 2d6+2? For possibly a year?

[Zakhara]

IMC (I run OD&D), Magic-Users are potentially the most popular class. Even brand-new players find the concept attractive, despite their weak start.

I've yet to encounter players who take issue with the Vancian system, but my answer is simply "game balance" should it come to that. The decision-making and planning that goes into Magic-Users really appeals to some.

[MeimuHakurei]

First of all, don't conflate "more options and mechanics" with "harder to play". A 3.5 Warrior has the least mechanics to worry about of all the classes, but because it's so insanely constrained, you're going to heavily struggle in all but the easiest encounters, which any real class would completely walk over.

Also most spell choices are what is useful in the vast majority of situations and a well put together list covers many different challenges along with avoiding overlap. The whole retreat to repick spells would only ever happen if a noncombat situation requires a certain solution the rest of the party doesn't have available - and even that is mitigated heavily (3.PF lets you carry a bunch of scribed scrolls for situational stuff while 5e lets you cast Ritual spells even when not prepared).

Finally, the ease with which Clerics, Druids and Wizards can repick their spells means they're very beginner friendly since you're free to pick as you like and be able to make different choices if you're not happy with your selection. Martial-types with a bad pick of archetype or fighting style or feat are stuck with it forever.

[Lord of Shadows]

Explain this please!

One other method we have used for new players (especially those completely new to TTRPG's) is to have them watch for a session (or a few), and allow questions at smoke breaks and such. Sometimes they can't wait to ask, and that's ok most of the time. Usually the newbie sits away from the table, but on some occasions we have had the newbie actually sit next to a current player and observe. Sometimes we have a more experienced player sit next to the newbie their first few times actually playing and "mentor" them. These can ease a newbie into the world of RPG's, and takes some of the "newbie frustration" away from the DM. YMMV...
.

[Rynjin]

Because people like to cast spells in a fantasy magic spell game.

It's not that complicated, really.

[Spore]

Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Because I could punch a punching bag in the face very hard IRL. Magic is impossible.

Basically the same reason why I almost never play humans, as I am a human myself. *beepboop*

[Peelee]

As a player we someone show up I played 5e. I want to run a wizard. Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts.

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.

Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe.

So the person expressed what they were interested in playing (a mage) and how they wanted to play it (by casting spontaneously), and you didn't do anything to sell them on the Sorcerer except for say "oh, that then"? Wouldn't your 25 years experience in car sales have kicked in to let you instead say, "oh, hey, it sounds like you want to do X, which is actually better handled by a different class. Here, let me explain the big differences to you" or something similar?

Basically the same reason why I almost never play humans, as I am a human myself. *beepboop*

Spoiler: Hello, fellow human.

Show

[Mr Beer]

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.

Explain this please!

As described, it sounds like a potential new recruit to the D&D community thought it would be cool to pretend to be a magical wizard, maybe like Gandalf or something similar. You instructed him to design the character using game knowledge that he doesn't currently possess. He decided that playing D&D isn't as much fun as he'd hoped and didn't come back.

[denthor]

So the person expressed what they were interested in playing (a mage) and how they wanted to play it (by casting spontaneously), and you didn't do anything to sell them on the Sorcerer except for say "oh, that then"? Wouldn't your 25 years experience in car sales have kicked in to let you instead say, "oh, hey, it sounds like you want to do X, which is actually better handled by a different class. Here, let me explain the big differences to you" or something similar?

Spoiler: Hello, fellow human.

Show

No!

For various reason car sales folk that are the most successful tend to be shall we say scum in real life as well. The best of them are addicts of some kind. The they wouldn't let me leave is because you are there next money for there addictions.

I am not an addict I just rose to a position where it was my way or here is the business card of someone that wants to spend 56 hours of your life in a showroom. You will save 700 dollars. I flat told people you got the best deal on the table don't waste your time with me, go buy it. I hate polite conversation with a forced smile from either one of us. Surprise my Customer Satisfaction Index over a 5 year average was 92.7 %.
I got a phone call from a father who sent his daughter in to buy a car. His exact words you kept your word never had a cars saleman do that before.

[Satinavian]

No!

For various reason car sales folk that are the most successful tend to be shall we say scum in real life as well. The best of them are addicts of some kind. The they wouldn't let me leave is because you are there next money for there addictions.

I am not an addict I just rose to a position where it was my way or here is the business card of someone that wants to spend 56 hours of your life in a showroom. You will save 700 dollars. I flat told people you got the best deal on the table don't waste your time with me, go buy it. I hate polite conversation with a forced smile from either one of us. Surprise my Customer Satisfaction Index over a 5 year average was 92.7 %.
I got a phone call from a father who sent his daughter in to buy a car. His exact words you kept your word never had a cars saleman do that before.

No one cares about your car-dealership. This is about D&D and your job is utterly irrelevant to it.

[Elysiume]

The first character I played in Pathfinder was a cleric and the last RPG I'd played was Exalted 2e around six years prior. Someone who hadn't played since D&D 2e played a sorcerer, two people who'd never played an RPG before played a druid and a bard. Why? Because we wanted to play those classes. Any rule issue/confusion we had was talked out and we played the characters from 1 to 17.

I agree with most of the posts in the thread so far. Sounds like someone wanted to play a wizard, a disagreement was handled poorly from at least one side, and you decided to make a sweeping proclamation that new players shouldn't be allowed to play casters.

[MoiMagnus]

I like the table I play at gritty difficult we play do it right or character dead.

Is this not the case at other tables. Are DMs really easy?

From my limited experience, yes they are. And yes I am.
At my tables, non-stupid play is enough to survive. And except very bad luck or very stupid move, I will not inflict you permadeath (risky choices you knowingly make can still induces permadeath) and rarely permanent negative things.
Good play will be rewarded by stuff better than "just survive".

[Djiini]

{scrubbed}
I started Caster first time I played, didn't run into any problems.

[TheYell]

My question is, why do you accept new players blindly?

[noob]

casters are not that hard but if you start at level 1 pick a druid or cleric unless your team have enough of those then you might pick a wizard if you prefer.
druids and clerics have more hp and armour(at level 1 mage armor lasts only 1 hour and spends one of your precious spell slots) and that helps at low level a lot+ the companion of the druid is like one extra character(at level 1 at least).
and if you do not like the fluff with druids you can refluff it without too much difficulty provided your gm is tolerating(even refluff it into scholarly guys if you like those).
You can have a 4 wizard team but the first levels might be harsh(like how you will need to diversify spell preparation and get a lot of backup options like oil or small round spheres of metal or mirrors or chalk and a mule or 3 and so on)