Erfworld 81, page 75

[Lord Zentei]

Hmmm... Two things.

The trimancers remind me of the "PreCogs" in "Minority Report." I wonder if that means anything...

Secondly, there seems to be a bit of chaos when you unlink the trimancers. Yet, Misty was able to unlink herself semi-at-will to help Parson...

There seems to be a bit of internal inconsistancy to this strip. I already had an extended rant about Jillian PWNZORing the dwagons, now this.

I'm getting frustrated with this story. At first, I didn't know where it was going, but I decided to give it a chance. Over time it began to develop an internal flow, and became pretty interesting. Now I'm finding myself getting annoyed with it, and I'm not sure if it's me, or the strip.

Am I the only one seeing this?

Rationalization, ahoy!

Perhaps the link spell is only active during daytime. If it has a duration of "one day", the thinkamancer may need to cast it at the beginning of each day.

It is also possible that speaking to the 'mancers both during and in between these castings makes the link harder to achieve/reestablish.


Anyway, what was the problem with Jillian PWNZORing the dragons?

[Dragonath]

Anyway, what was the problem with Jillian PWNZORing the dragons?

SurfingHalfOrc is simply still refusing to believe this happened, heh.

He thinks of it as unreal, I guess.

I was shocked too, and did not want to believe it at first. But, Stanley and his knights will save the day. Stanley has a secret weapon, believe me !

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Anyway, what was the problem with Jillian PWNZORing the dragons?

The fact that Parson SHOULD have anticipated Jillian breaking the spell (since he clearly didn't trust it), and thus WOULD have parked the A-dwagons somewhere else.

I posted this down in the "Strategery vs. Dumb Luck" post of a week or so ago.

To me, it was a "forcing" of the plot. Parson was presented as a gamer and strategist, who had been working on Stanley's problem back on Earth for the previous five months. He came up with a clever and conservative method of taking out the siege engines, Ansom's most potent threat against Gobwin Knob. Parson ALSO lured Ansom into a trap, one that Ansom COULD have gotten out of with help, although the dwagons would have wrecked havoc on more of the siege engines before Ansom could have developed a sutable defense.

But instead of a continuation of the battle of minds, it turned into, "Oh hai! I just PWNZORed your dwagosn! You are teh SUCK!!!!!!!1111111oneoneone!! LOLZ!!!" on the basis of Jillian "just happening to stumbl over" the dwagons, having the Archons as "just enough" of a back-up support, and Ansom being "just close enough" to race to her side.

Others have said that with Jillian starting a search pattern, then shifting to a rescue operation would somehow allowed her to randomly find the dwagons, even though Parson knew where Jillian had been dropped off, and could have guessed her most likely route to Ansom. And Parson had every reason to think that Jillian would return to her Commander, so logically would have protected the dwagons better.

The "dwagon fort" was a classic bit of misdirection. Even if Parson had hidden the dwagons in a forest hex, Ansom probably would not have used ground scouts to look for them once Vinny's bats had located the "Donut of Doom." The A's could have been hidden in a different area, or split up into three groups. Even if Jillian had found one of the groups and taken them out, Parson still would have "saved" 1/2 to 2/3rds of his valuable and irreplacable A-dwagons. Instead he lost all 19, PLUS the 3 Warlords. (Hell, if nothing else, Parson could have and SHOULD HAVE parked the Warlords in the "Donut of Doom" to add their bonus when the B-dwagons commenced to doing a tap dance on Ansom's head!)

Parson doesn't have to "win" for this to be a good story, but he has to have a chance! To me, this was a "The Computer Cheats!" moment.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

SurfingHalfOrc is simply still refusing to believe this happened, heh.

He thinks of it as unreal, I guess.

I was shocked too, and did not want to believe it at first. But, Stanley and his knights will save the day. Stanley has a secret weapon, believe me !

See my post above, and the following:

(Hmmm... How to say this without sounding too snarky... Screw it. Snarky it is! (Don't take it personal!))

If Stanley's knights and Stanley's "Secret Weapon" could "Save the Day!" Stanley would have used it rather than spending $M350,000!!! There would be no crossover between Erfworld and Earth!!! Parson would never have been introduced to the story!!!

OK, that wasn't TOO snarky. Still friends?

[Lord Zentei]

See my post above, and the following:

(Hmmm... How to say this without sounding too snarky... Screw it. Snarky it is! (Don't take it personal!))

If Stanley's knights and Stanley's "Secret Weapon" could "Save the Day!" Stanley would have used it rather than spending $M350,000!!! There would be no crossover between Erfworld and Earth!!! Parson would never have been introduced to the story!!!

OK, that wasn't TOO snarky. Still friends?

My dear fellow, you have never seen "snarky" if you thought that was it.

As for his knights... Stanley is still outnumbered 25:1, you know.

SurfingHalfOrc is simply still refusing to believe this happened, heh.

He thinks of it as unreal, I guess.

I was shocked too, and did not want to believe it at first. But, Stanley and his knights will save the day. Stanley has a secret weapon, believe me !

Well, they were pretty badly damaged, only a few hits remaining. And Jillian adds a huge bonus to her stack. And there were Archons. And Ansom, who also provides a bonus to the same stack. And an Arkentool bonus....

Incidentally, she was in a spot of trouble with Manpower before Ansom arrived, so it's not as though the dwagons were pushovers.

[sihnfahl]

My dear fellow, you have never seen "snarky" if you thought that was it.

As for his knights... Stanley is still outnumbered 25:1, you know.

He's taking the Foolamancer with him. That tells me Stanley's going to Veil himself, the dwagons, and all the Knights that go with him.

Since Ansom relies upon scouts, Veiling all those dwagons and himself would only be of use if Stanley wants to hide from Jetstone on their turn.

If he's going after the Arkenpliers, then he may just be hoping to get Ansom, grab the Arkenpliers, then veil himself so that, when Jetstone moves, they can't find him.

Otherwise, he's beating feet.

@SurfingHalfOrc - I think one of the issues you may have at the moment is due to the fact that they're producing more strips than they intended (I seem to remember one of them saying that a while back, at least). This breaks up their pacing from the original plan, so things may seem 'tacked in'...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

My dear fellow, you have never seen "snarky" if you thought that was it.

As for his knights... Stanley is still outnumbered 25:1, you know.

I know. I'm to nice to be rude.

And yes, Stanley is still badly out numbered, but Gobwin Knob is the best defended location in the world. The siege engines are key to Ansom's plan of taking down Stanley without sending thousands of troops into the meatgrinder that is the tunnels under the walls.

Gobwin Knob is (to me) the third Terran Mission in Starcraft. Build three bunkers at each entrance, set up a line of Missile Towers, and man the bunkers with four Marines apiece. Keep an SCV nearby to repair the bunkers, and you're done, unless you want to go out and take the fight to the Zerg.

24 Marines, 2-3 "repair" SCVs, 5-6 Towers, and you can go get a quesadilla while the game remains in "auto-mode" and the clock runs down.

But Starcraft analogies aside, Ansom HAS the troops to overwhelm Gobwin Knob and take out Stanley, as long as the siege engines make it up the ramp to batter the walls down. Parson knew that the siege engines were his single biggest threat, and found a way of taking them out while minimizing his losses.

Jillian? Should not have happened. Anything that comes along after this that allows Parson to "win" screams Deus ex Machina!

[Lord Zentei]

Even Stanley was desperate enough to blow 350000 schmuckers on a "perfect warlord", and at Wanda's advice; his chances can't be too rosy.

As for deus ex machina... depends on how he wins, no?

[Dragonath]

See my post above, and the following:

(Hmmm... How to say this without sounding too snarky... Screw it. Snarky it is! (Don't take it personal!))

If Stanley's knights and Stanley's "Secret Weapon" could "Save the Day!" Stanley would have used it rather than spending $M350,000!!! There would be no crossover between Erfworld and Earth!!! Parson would never have been introduced to the story!!!

OK, that wasn't TOO snarky. Still friends?

Still friends mate :P

[Lord Zentei]

He's taking the Foolamancer with him. That tells me Stanley's going to Veil himself, the dwagons, and all the Knights that go with him.

Since Ansom relies upon scouts, Veiling all those dwagons and himself would only be of use if Stanley wants to hide from Jetstone on their turn.

If he's going after the Arkenpliers, then he may just be hoping to get Ansom, grab the Arkenpliers, then veil himself so that, when Jetstone moves, they can't find him.

Otherwise, he's beating feet.

Seems like a reasonable plan, if that's it. And he has stated that he wants to go it on his own, so it makes sense in that context.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Even Stanley was desperate enough to blow 350000 schmuckers on a "perfect warlord", and at Wanda's advice; his chances can't be too rosy.

As for deus ex machina... depends on how he wins, no?

What's Parson got left? Wanda (broken). Sizemore (not particularily powerful). Bogroll (??? You're joking, right?) Ensign Toast and Archduke Ferdnand (Meh... They're Warlords.) A few hundred gobwins. The walls. Maybe the B-dwagons if Stanley doesn't take them with him. Misty (if she's not the one on the floor.)

Anything else? An Arken Gatling-gun in his next Stupid Meal? Let's not go there, K?

[SteveMB]

Well, they were pretty badly damaged, only a few hits remaining. And Jillian adds a huge bonus to her stack. And there were Archons. And Ansom, who also provides a bonus to the same stack. And an Arkentool bonus....

Incidentally, she was in a spot of trouble with Manpower before Ansom arrived, so it's not as though the dwagons were pushovers.

To be fair, the issue is more whether finding the dwagons was an unreasonably unlikely event forced by authorial fiat. The debate on that point was hashed out on the "Strategery vs Dumb Luck" thread.

The two subpoints are:

1. Should Parson have predicted Jillian's path? If she'd gone straight from her starting position to Ansom's rescue, it's a matter of basic geometry. If she'd spent her whole turn conducting the hunt, it's a matter of guessing where Ansom thinks the dwagons might be (knowing where the bats tried and failed to find them helps here) and inferring Jillian's likely search pattern from that, her starting position, and her available move.

If she spent part of the turn doing one and part of the turn doing the other, it's a matter of having a Predictamancer on call. Unfortunately for Parson, she did and he doesn't.

2. Should Parson have found a better place to park the wounded dwagons? The only way to effectively eliminate the risk of their being found was to send them a long distance from the column. However, that reduces the damage done to the siege units (since every move spent on the final breakaway is one less move to spend moving to the next target). Given that he had to finish the job before Ansom's air cover returned or else the whole thing is useless, that wasn't really a viable option.

If you can't insure that you won't be attacked, the next best thing is to minimize the enemy force that can attack you. Parking the dwagons over the lake did that.

[Lord Zentei]

What's Parson got left? Wanda (broken). Sizemore (not particularily powerful). Bogroll (??? You're joking, right?) Ensign Toast and Archduke Ferdnand (Meh... They're Warlords.) A few hundred gobwins. The walls. Maybe the B-dwagons if Stanley doesn't take them with him. Misty (if she's not the one on the floor.)

Anything else? An Arken Gatling-gun in his next Stupid Meal? Let's not go there, K?

Playing the opponent, not the army. As with the Jillian Capture thing, only hopefully it'll work.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Playing the opponent, not the army. As with the Jillian Capture thing, only hopefully it'll work.

He DID play the opponent! He totally snookered Ansom into a trap!

That's why I say it was a forced plot-point. Taking out the A-dwagons should have been the result of strategy on Team Ansom's side, not a lucky flight path.

When you tell a story, you get to tell one big lie, then the rest has to follow an internal logic. Magically sucking Parson into Erfworld was the "Willing Suspension of Disbelief." After that, everything else has to "logical and more-or-less fair."

The dwagon beatdown wasn't fair. That Parson, a "Master Strategist," would not have anticipated Jillian's flight path was a "cheat."

[Lord Zentei]

He DID play the opponent! He totally snookered Ansom into a trap!

That's why I say it was a forced plot-point. Taking out the A-dwagons should have been the result of strategy on Team Ansom's side, not a lucky flight path.

When you tell a story, you get to tell one big lie, then the rest has to follow an internal logic. Magically sucking Parson into Erfworld was the "Willing Suspension of Disbelief." After that, everything else has to "logical and more-or-less fair."

The dwagon beatdown wasn't fair. That Parson, a "Master Strategist" would not have anticipated Jillian's flight path was a "cheat."

Of course, Wanda isn't a lookamancer and doubted her ability in casting the spell. Parson himself thought that they had made a mistake when they summoned him: he could be the "great strategist" and yet, not quite.

[Halfpunch]

See my post above, and the following:

(Hmmm... How to say this without sounding too snarky... Screw it. Snarky it is! (Don't take it personal!))

If Stanley's knights and Stanley's "Secret Weapon" could "Save the Day!" Stanley would have used it rather than spending $M350,000!!! There would be no crossover between Erfworld and Earth!!! Parson would never have been introduced to the story!!!

OK, that wasn't TOO snarky. Still friends?

It is very improbable that Ansom would be as vulnerable as he is without Parson being summoned, wreaking havoc on the seige and forcing a retaliation

I don't think Stanley can/will do anything that is going to give GK a chance. To him "winning" is getting all the Arkentools, not winning all his battles. So, for his personal goals he may well be able to "Save the Day" here. It just leaves Parson et. al. hung out to dry.

[factotum]

As for deus ex machina... depends on how he wins, no?

Or IF he wins. I think a lot of people were assuming that Parson had to win because his side is the underdog against those 25 to 1 odds, but it could be this whole story is just aimed at getting Parson into Erfworld and out from under Stanley's thumb, in which case everything that's happening is perfectly reasonable. Just because the story is not following the path YOU would write does not make it a bad story.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Of course, Wanda isn't a lookamancer and doubted her ability in casting the spell. Parson himself thought that they had made a mistake when they summoned him: he could be the "great strategist" and yet, not quite.

But that's how Parson was presented. As a Game Designer, able to fight off four intellegent opponents back here on Earth single-handidly. Sure, they could have four noobs, easily defeated by one guy who "sort of" knows the rules, but not very likely.

As for "Better Strategists," sure. Wanda COULD have snatched some Colonel or General straight out of the Pentagon, or someone from Game Design at Avalon Hill, but she got Parson instead. Strongly implies that Parson should have been the man for the job. He has a "Learning Curve" to overcome, but he should not have had his head handed to him like that.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Or IF he wins. I think a lot of people were assuming that Parson had to win because his side is the underdog against those 25 to 1 odds, but it could be this whole story is just aimed at getting Parson into Erfworld and out from under Stanley's thumb, in which case everything that's happening is perfectly reasonable. Just because the story is not following the path YOU would write does not make it a bad story.

I've said several times that Parson doesn't have to win for this to be a good story. But I've always added that he has to have a "chance!"

But if the writer is going to just steamroller over Parson's plans, then there is no point in Parson making plans. Just send him home. He's useless to the story.

[Lord Zentei]

But that's how Parson was presented. As a Game Designer, able to fight off four intellegent opponents back here on Earth single-handidly. Sure, they could have four noobs, easily defeated by one guy who "sort of" knows the rules, but not very likely.

As for "Better Strategists," sure. Wanda COULD have snatched some Colonel or General straight out of the Pentagon, or someone from Game Design at Avalon Hill, but she got Parson instead. Strongly implies that Parson should have been the man for the job. He has a "Learning Curve" to overcome, but he should not have had his head handed to him like that.

It's not that I don't see where you are coming from, but one could also see the introduction as being anything but a "grand strategist", some random guy living in a basement who had designed a game sort of similar to GK... Note that he was unfamiliar with even the basic combat mechanics of Erfworld, so could he have been that perfect?

I suppose it depends on how you interpret the early strips. And I'm withholding judgement until I see what Parson's current plan really is, and how it turns out...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

It's not that I don't see where you are coming from, but one could also see the introduction as being anything but a "grand strategist", some random guy living in a basement who had designed a game sort of similar to GK... Note that he was unfamiliar with even the basic combat mechanics of Erfworld, so could he have been that perfect?

I suppose it depends on how you interpret the early strips. And I'm withholding judgement until I see what Parson's current plan really is, and how it turns out...

He might have been unfamiliar with the combat mechanics when he first spoke with Stanley, but looking at his klog it looks like he picked them up quite quickly. But it wasn't until Wanda dropped clue that they could veil their units that Parson even knew about it!

Wanda was playing a little game of "I have a secret! And I'm not tellin'!" Think if Wanda had dropped that useful little nugget BEFORE Parson sent his Warlords out to the battlefield might have been a tad more useful? Parson still would have set his trap for Ansom, but would have hidden the dwagons both further from Jillian's projected flightpath, AND under a veil.

A "Perfect Warlord" would have been someone who was a professional, not just a talented amateur. Had Stanley ponyed up the full $M500K, PLOT! would have scooped up someone from the military. But for $M350K, he got the best amateur available. And that makes Parson more "approachable" to the general audience of gamer geeks.

(Some days, I feel like Henry Fonda in "Twelve Angry Men.")

[Lord Zentei]

He might have been unfamiliar with the combat mechanics when he first spoke with Stanley, but looking at his klog it looks like he picked them up quite quickly. But it wasn't until Wanda dropped clue that they could veil their units that Parson even knew about it!

Wanda was playing a little game of "I have a secret! And I'm not tellin'!" Think if Wanda had dropped that useful little nugget BEFORE Parson sent his Warlords out to the battlefield might have been a tad more useful? Parson still would have set his trap for Ansom, but would have hidden the dwagons both further from Jillian's projected flightpath, AND under a veil.

Possibly, though they would need to break the link to make it work. And yes, Wanda hasn't been exactly forthcoming about stuff -- too much confidence in her own spells, methinks.

A "Perfect Warlord" would have been someone who was a professional, not just a talented amateur. Had Stanley ponyed up the full $M500K, PLOT! would have scooped up someone from the military. But for $M350K, he got the best amateur available. And that makes Parson more "approachable" to the general audience of gamer geeks.

Awww. Now you're wishing you were the one PLOTTED.

And obviously this story is written for the gamer geeks, that's a given.

(Some days, I feel like Henry Fonda in "Twelve Angry Men.")

[Bongos]

I'm as disappointed as the Surfing Half-Orc is about the dwagons, I wanted to see Parson pwn something.
I was rooting for him! So Jillian found the dwagons, Ansom helped her, they pwned! Kind of drats now isn't it?

Maybe Parson isn't the right guy? Maybe Stanley f-uped by asking for a guy that eats Marbits for breakfast and snacks on Gwiffons and plans battles for "fun" and not battles for "real".

....but maybe Parson is the right guy, would a General even have a clue how to fight in turns and with magic and dwagons? probably anyone but a gamer or fantasy roleplayer would actually be insane by now.

But it did kind of suck to see Parson's excellent plan just get completely blown by a stroke of luck and a broken spell. Not just blown but completely pwnz0red!

So now we have a story where Parson has really got to dig deep instead of Vinny and Ansom realizing things are'nt going to be as easy as they thought.

But then again if Parson had cwoaked Ansom or wasted the seige, the story would be close to over, now it's a wtf are they gonna do now? they thought they were effed up before, now they really are!

So where's it gonna go from here?

[SteveMB]

He might have been unfamiliar with the combat mechanics when he first spoke with Stanley, but looking at his klog it looks like he picked them up quite quickly.

Parson picked up enough to get by, but his knowledge is full of gaping holes.

But it wasn't until Wanda dropped clue that they could veil their units that Parson even knew about it!

Wanda was playing a little game of "I have a secret! And I'm not tellin'!"

Secret? On the contrary; Wanda mentioned veiling as if it were a matter of common knowledge -- because it is a matter of common knowledge. A warlord who came into existence not already knowing all this stuff is a profoundly alien concept to her, and everybody else in Erfworld. Sizemore comes the closest to wrapping his head around it, and he knows magic theory, not military tactics.

Think if Wanda had dropped that useful little nugget BEFORE Parson sent his Warlords out to the battlefield might have been a tad more useful?

No doubt, but why would she? Again, expecting her to understand that Parson needs to be taught this stuff is like expecting an ordinary real-world person to understand that someone who asks "How do I get to the bus station?" needs an explanation that includes the definitions of "street," "intersection," "left," "right," etc.

She took a stab at it by having him read the histories in the library, those being the best available resource (there wouldn't be any such things as entry-level textbooks, after all). He did surprisingly well, considering.

Parson still would have set his trap for Ansom, but would have hidden the dwagons both further from Jillian's projected flightpath, AND under a veil.

First, what "projected flightpath" (see above)? Second, how would he have carried out his raids without the Trimancer?

[Bongos]

Stanley as an overlord has a bonus right? His arkentool has a bonus right?
He still has warlords and dwagons and knights and a Foolamancer............now if he could just get to where Ansom, Vinny, Jillian and the Archons are before they heal up.....they looked pretty damaged to me........

[teratorn]

If Stanley's knights and Stanley's "Secret Weapon" could "Save the Day!" Stanley would have used it rather than spending $M350,000!!! There would be no crossover between Erfworld and Earth!!! Parson would never have been introduced to the story!!!

But Stanley's knights and Stanley's "Secret Weapon" never before had the chance of finding Ansom injured and cut from the bulk of his troops. Ansom and Vinny, at full health, were not strong enough to fight six dwagons, they needed to feed them bats. The odds Ansom's team will be facing against the Arkenhammer and Stanley are worse than that.

I can see the usefulness of the knights if Stanley plans to attack Ansom, but why the foolamancer? (well, he could be used to veil Stanley after he finishes Ansom but it can't be that simple).

[Bongos]

A Foolamancer can probably do more than just veil troops, the Foolamancer wasn't doing any veiling as part of the link. Not saying veiling isn't going to happen, just might be something else going on too.

[sihnfahl]

I can see the usefulness of the knights if Stanley plans to attack Ansom, but why the foolamancer? (well, he could be used to veil Stanley after he finishes Ansom but it can't be that simple).

The dwagons, if Stanley goes after Ansom, probably wouldn't have the move to return to GK, since they started way out in the field to begin with. Since Ansom is the Chief Warlord, and not the Faction Leader, croaking/capturing him doesn't end the fight - so Stanley would be out in the field and possibly vulnerable.

He's just covering his bases - but that's only IF he attacks Ansom (all signs are pointing to him doing so, though...)

[Rutee]

He has 2 uncroaked Warlords (Presumably, that makes them lower quality), and the opposition either ended their turn near the Column, or over the water. If it's the latter, the Kniggits aren't going to help. If it's the former, then he's not going to survive killing Ansom, unless the Arkenpliers give him godlike strength (A possibility, since he /does/ have the Arkenhammer already), assuming he possesses the capability to kill Ansom.

I don't think Vinnie, Jillian, or the Archons are terribly wounded, since they've only been in one fight (Vinnie stayed out of the breakthrough to the Fort Square). Now I'll grant, Dwagons do definitely seem to be fearsome fliers, and it just seems to be some Gwiffon stacks with them, but I don't think Stanley or his Uncroaked have leadership bonuses nearly as high as Jillian's. His Artifact bonus should be higher though.

In short, given the apparent ease of victory the previous group had over 3 Warlords.. I do indeed think that Jillian, the Archons (Who seem to be combination Thinkomancer-awesometastic fighters) Ansom, Vinnie, and the Gwiffons in reserve can beat the forces Stanley is likely to be able to gether. Remember, he lost a LOT of dwagons just now..

The dwagons, if Stanley goes after Ansom, probably wouldn't have the move to return to GK, since they started way out in the field to begin with. Since Ansom is the Chief Warlord, and not the Faction Leader, croaking/capturing him doesn't end the fight - so Stanley would be out in the field and possibly vulnerable.

Yeah, that seemed to be the reasoning to me too. There's still the Gwiffon flights under Ansom's SCO, and presumably, Vinnie has SCOs as well, so the Bats are still viable.

But then again if Parson had cwoaked Ansom or wasted the seige, the story would be close to over, now it's a wtf are they gonna do now? they thought they were effed up before, now they really are!

Not really. The battle might be won, but bear in mind that Stanley started with 11 cities. There's several forces within the coalition as well, and if each of them was as strong as STanley was...

[Bongos]

The dwagons, if Stanley goes after Ansom, probably wouldn't have the move to return to GK, since they started way out in the field to begin with. Since Ansom is the Chief Warlord, and not the Faction Leader, croaking/capturing him doesn't end the fight - so Stanley would be out in the field and possibly vulnerable.

He's just covering his bases - but that's only IF he attacks Ansom (all signs are pointing to him doing so, though...)

Ansom's NOT the Faction leader? Are you sure of that? If Ansom's not the leader who is? I really think Ansom is the faction leader, he's always leading and telling the other guys what to do and making the plans and orders and...