Erfworld 81, page 75

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Magically hits it right on the head. My guess is that, once Ansom got the love letter/suicide note, he coughed up the shmuckers for Charlie to tell him where the Archons were--something Charlie knew very well. Possibly the information was even free--Charlie is "allied" with Jetstone now, and it is only reasonable to give your own coordinates to your allies.

But that would constitute a three-way call or some other high speed communication that hasn't been shown before.

The Archons gave Jillian a one-way communication TO Ansom, but nothing was shown how Ansom could either call the Archons, OR Charlie OR receive grid coordinates along with the video feed. Up until now, you either had to have a communication link to "your" units, such as the black-and-white feed Vinny received from Bat*21, or use a hat.

Vinny has a direct link to the bats. Charlie has a direct link to the Archons. But Ansom uses a hat to communicate with Webinar or Jillian. When did Ansom get two-way communication with the Archons and/or Charlie? If he has it, it needs to be shown, or it's a cheat, especially if the plot has been advanced on poor real-time communication issues for Team Ansom.

Ansom's "response" was nearly instantanious, something he SHOULDN'T have been able to do with the slow-speed communication net he has been shown to date as having.

Jillian's message was clearly an "I loved you, please don't weep over my fallen body" suicide note. Which pretty strongly implied that Ansom had no way of getting an answer back to Jillian, let alone race to her "rescue" without more info on her location. Info that wasn't shown being transmitted.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

What's the name of the gobwin riding the dwagon that uses Bogroll's parasol for target practice?

His name is Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson.

(Well, it could be! )

[Bongos]

And what evidence is there for that ?

Can it not be possible that King Slately asked or ordered Ansom to end Stanley's excistence.

And what if Ansom dies ? Don't you think Slately wants him avenged?

Heck, he would come out riding into battle himself if Ansom died, as far as we know.

Your assumption is based on your opinion, not facts.

At this point, we cannot tell if the coalition will fall apart if Ansom dies. There is simply no way to prove it, yet.

We have the fact that Vinnie asks Ansom why he is LEADING this fight? Vinnie asks what Stanley ever did to Jetstone, Ansom answer can't "I" meaning just Ansom want to rid the word of a great evil.

Everyone else in the Coalition defers to Ansom, the Woodsy Elves are willing to sacrifice their lives for his. He commands the Archons now as mercenaries, he is the single most dynamic leader of the entire coalition. You think all those elves would get along without a leader of his magnitude?

again King Slately may rule in Jetstone, but the alliance and it's many nations , races and groups is led by Prince Ansom. They may have all acted against Stanley separately, but it sure seams like it's Prince Ansom's leadership that has organized this alliance.

[fendrin]

If the trap part were omitted, Parson could have gotten the same effect against siege, at no risk, by simply gathering all the dwagons into a single hex in the forest--no donuts of doom, no shell games. But that would have been less than satisfying in story terms, wouldn't it? So I guess the gamble was inevitable, in a metagaming way.

Actually, I think putting all of the dwagons in one hex would have been a mistake. Ansom had enough bats to make a comprehensive scouting effort to find the dwagons. One found, he would have gathered all available units and bombarded them, or, if it were not feasible to take out the dwagons, he probably would have taken a more defensive tactic, such as the one that SteveMB proposed. I think that at this point, Parosn is treating Ansom as a 'worthy opponent', not the 'dumb pretty boy' that he was led to believe at first.

The only thing that changed because of Wanda pointing out that Ansom didn't have an eyemancer table was that Parson could move the A dwagons out of ring fort so that they plus the B dwagons would have been able to take down Ansom and co on the next turn. Honestly, I think that parson considered the A dwagons to be a lost cause, but worth trading for the siege. I happen to agree with him, but Stanley doesn't.

Getting back to the original point: The ring-fort was for more than just trapping Ansom or protecting the A dwagons. It was there to keep Ansom and the flyers away from the siege. Ansom had to believe that his best bet to protect the most siege was to go on the offensive. That means that Parson HAD to divvy up the dwagons. Furthermore, he had to leave them fairly close to the column so that the surviving dwagons could make it to the column enough times to destroy all the siege and have enough move to make it back to GK.

The ring fort made sure that Ansom would use the maximum amount of move and croak the minimum number of dwagons.

Also, Parson's Klog #6 described the ring fort and is the strip BEFORE he hatched the 'capture Ansom' scheme.

[SteveMB]

Honestly, I think that parson considered the A dwagons to be a lost cause, but worth trading for the siege. I happen to agree with him, but Stanley doesn't....

Also, Parson's Klog #6 described the ring fort and is the strip BEFORE he hatched the 'capture Ansom' scheme.

That fits his "We can change the whole course of this battle. For almost no cost!" [emphasis added] comment. If he'd gone with the original plan, he would have lost the A dwagons as soon as Ansom & Company broke through*. This way, he had a good chance that he'd only have to sacrifice the weak-hex dwagons. If he was prepared to outright write off the A dwagons anyway, merely risking them instead is a step up.

*If anything, Ansom's ground force of many individually weak units would be more effective than the air force of a few powerful units. Each wounded dwagon just needs a few hits to finish it off; quantity of attacks thus counts for more than quality.

[fendrin]

But that would constitute a three-way call or some other high speed communication that hasn't been shown before.

The Archons gave Jillian a one-way communication TO Ansom, but nothing was shown how Ansom could either call the Archons, OR Charlie OR receive grid coordinates along with the video feed. Up until now, you either had to have a communication link to "your" units, such as the black-and-white feed Vinny received from Bat*21, or use a hat.

Vinny has a direct link to the bats. Charlie has a direct link to the Archons. But Ansom uses a hat to communicate with Webinar or Jillian. When did Ansom get two-way communication with the Archons and/or Charlie? If he has it, it needs to be shown, or it's a cheat, especially if the plot has been advanced on poor real-time communication issues for Team Ansom.

Ansom's "response" was nearly instantanious, something he SHOULDN'T have been able to do with the slow-speed communication net he has been shown to date as having.

Jillian's message was clearly an "I loved you, please don't weep over my fallen body" suicide note. Which pretty strongly implied that Ansom had no way of getting an answer back to Jillian, let alone race to her "rescue" without more info on her location. Info that wasn't shown being transmitted.

What is 'high-speed' communication in a world where time does not flow the same way as here? On Erf it flows based on the actions of the units, not the other way around (e.g. all units move at the same 'speed', but some can move further than the others, sunset is defined by when Ansom ends his turn)

Also, Webinar tells Jillian that Ansom can "...give you that order through Charlie", so we know that
1) Ansom can contact Charlie
2) Charlie can contact the Archons
3) The archons can contact anyone

There's your 3-way communications.

The thinkagrams are for all intents and purposes instantaneous, as Parson's klog # 6 states that the thinkamancer can give real-time orders to the uncroaked warlords.

Additionally, the thinkagram was from the perspective of the Archon. Its quite feasible that she sent something along beyond what Jillian said.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

What is 'high-speed' communication in a world where time does not flow the same way as here? On Erf it flows based on the actions of the units, not the other way around (e.g. all units move at the same 'speed', but some can move further than the others, sunset is defined by when Ansom ends his turn)

Also, Webinar tells Jillian that Ansom can "...give you that order through Charlie", so we know that
1) Ansom can contact Charlie
2) Charlie can contact the Archons
3) The archons can contact anyone

There's your 3-way communications.

The thinkagrams are for all intents and purposes instantaneous, as Parson's klog # 6 states that the thinkamancer can give real-time orders to the uncroaked warlords.

Additionally, the thinkagram was from the perspective of the Archon. Its quite feasible that she sent something along beyond what Jillian said.

Feasable, but not shown, nor hinted at. In fact, it was presented as a one-way message, filled with thinly veiled (who am I kidding? Not veiled at ALL!) insults to Ansom. For me to buy off on anything more than a message left on an answering machine, I would have had to see Ansom say something along the lines of: "Jillian! Wait! I..." or something along those lines.

Big gaping plot holes. I keep waiting and hoping to see something fill them in and let know that I was right about this strip. I had high hopes for this strip, but I'm watching it self destruct right before my eyes.

Parson's a genius
Parson's an idiot

Ansom has limited fast communication
Ansom has communication as fast as he needs it for the moment

Troops can do this, this and this
Oh! and they can ALSO do this! And... um... This as well!

If I bought a book with this many plot holes in it, you can be sure I wouldn't buy the sequel!

[JazzManJim]

Parson's a genius
Parson's an idiot

Ansom has limited fast communication
Ansom has communication as fast as he needs it for the moment

Troops can do this, this and this
Oh! and they can ALSO do this! And... um... This as well!

If I bought a book with this many plot holes in it, you can be sure I wouldn't buy the sequel!

Dude, you are hitting every misgiving I've had with the strip for the past three weeks or so and you're saying them almost exactly as I would have.

My guess is that we're going to find out next week that not only can a foolamancer veil units, but an insane foolamancer can do some really amazing stuff that we've never even considered.

[fendrin]

Feasable, but not shown, nor hinted at. In fact, it was presented as a one-way message, filled with thinly veiled (who am I kidding? Not veiled at ALL!) insults to Ansom. For me to buy off on anything more than a message left on an answering machine, I would have had to see Ansom say something along the lines of: "Jillian! Wait! I..." or something along those lines.

Big gaping plot holes. I keep waiting and hoping to see something fill them in and let know that I was right about this strip. I had high hopes for this strip, but I'm watching it self destruct right before my eyes.

Parson's a genius
Parson's an idiot

Ansom has limited fast communication
Ansom has communication as fast as he needs it for the moment

Troops can do this, this and this
Oh! and they can ALSO do this! And... um... This as well!

If I bought a book with this many plot holes in it, you can be sure I wouldn't buy the sequel!

1) You only replied to on small part of my post. 1/6th, to be precise. That was also just an aside tacked onto the end. If you are going to complain about plot holes, you really need to be willing to think about (and respond to) the ideas presented, not just the ones you can argue with.

2) I don't see anyone saying parson is a Genius (Wanda wanted a genius, but Stanley mucked it up). Parson MAY BE a genius, we have nothing stating absolutely one way or another.

3) I have yet to see him be an idiot. In fact Parson has only ever been defeated by two things: Vinny (advising Ansom not to go after Jillian) and Stanley (not giving Parson a chance to finish his plan). As I have already explained, it is logically consistent that Parson expected the A dwagons to die. Maybe that was idiotic, but I don't think so, and we really have no way of knowing at this point.

4) Ansom has limited fast communication in that he can only communicate (short of using a messenger) to a few people (prior to his contract with Charlie). Through Vinny he gets reports from the bats. Through the hats he can contact whoever has the hat (first Jillian then Webinar). Note that all magical communication is essentially instantaneous, so all of these are .

5) Once he has the contract with Charlie, Ansom can contact the Archons via Charlie, and by extension, anyone. However, communicating through Charlie costs schmuckers. Let it be noted that for enough schmuckers, he can have two-way communications. This would really only be a practical expenditure if dialogue is necessary.

6) Using your 'answering machine' analogy, here's how it could have worked with plot continuity.
i) Jillian calls Ansom and leaves a message that she is going to croak the dwagons. (Yes insulting him, but also telling him the one thing he wants to hear most: that she loves him)
ii) Ansom calls Charlie and leaves a message that he REALLY needs to know where Jillian and the Archons are, and that he's wiling to pay for the information.
iii) Charlie, wanting to make more money off of Ansom and not wanting his Archions to get croaked, calls Jaclyn and leaves a message telling her to call him with her coordinates.
iv) Jaclyn calls Charlie and leaves a message with her coordinates.
v) Charlie calls Ansom and leaves a message with Jaclyn's coordinates.

So there we have it in 5 one way messages. I see no hole.

Now, the answering machine analogy is a little flawed, because it implies that the message may be sitting around for a while before it is received. The closest I can compare it to would be internet packet routing, but I doubt that will make sense to everybody.

[Tekraen]

1) You only replied to on small part of my post. 1/6th, to be precise. That was also just an aside tacked onto the end. If you are going to complain about plot holes, you really need to be willing to think about (and respond to) the ideas presented, not just the ones you can argue with.

2) I don't see anyone saying parson is a Genius (Wanda wanted a genius, but Stanley mucked it up). Parson MAY BE a genius, we have nothing stating absolutely one way or another.

3) I have yet to see him be an idiot. In fact Parson has only ever been defeated by two things: Vinny (advising Ansom not to go after Jillian) and Stanley (not giving Parson a chance to finish his plan). As I have already explained, it is logically consistent that Parson expected the A dwagons to die. Maybe that was idiotic, but I don't think so, and we really have no way of knowing at this point.

4) Ansom has limited fast communication in that he can only communicate (short of using a messenger) to a few people (prior to his contract with Charlie). Through Vinny he gets reports from the bats. Through the hats he can contact whoever has the hat (first Jillian then Webinar). Note that all magical communication is essentially instantaneous, so all of these are .

5) Once he has the contract with Charlie, Ansom can contact the Archons via Charlie, and by extension, anyone. However, communicating through Charlie costs schmuckers. Let it be noted that for enough schmuckers, he can have two-way communications. This would really only be a practical expenditure if dialogue is necessary.

6) Using your 'answering machine' analogy, here's how it could have worked with plot continuity.
i) Jillian calls Ansom and leaves a message that she is going to croak the dwagons. (Yes insulting him, but also telling him the one thing he wants to hear most: that she loves him)
ii) Ansom calls Charlie and leaves a message that he REALLY needs to know where Jillian and the Archons are, and that he's wiling to pay for the information.
iii) Charlie, wanting to make more money off of Ansom and not wanting his Archions to get croaked, calls Jaclyn and leaves a message telling her to call him with her coordinates.
iv) Jaclyn calls Charlie and leaves a message with her coordinates.
v) Charlie calls Ansom and leaves a message with Jaclyn's coordinates.

So there we have it in 5 one way messages. I see no hole.

Now, the answering machine analogy is a little flawed, because it implies that the message may be sitting around for a while before it is received. The closest I can compare it to would be internet packet routing, but I doubt that will make sense to everybody.

We've also been shown that an Archon needs to be available at the sending point in order for the message to go out. While it might be explained as "You've got Mail! From <subject> at <location>", using it as instantaneous communication and map updates hasn't been yet shown since they seem to have left the battle map at the command center; not taken it with them.

[SteveMB]

We've also been shown that an Archon needs to be available at the sending point in order for the message to go out.

Obviously not, or Ansom wouldn't have been able to contact Charlie to hire the Archons in the first place.

[fendrin]

Obviously not, or Ansom wouldn't have been able to contact Charlie to hire the Archons in the first place.

Or there may be some other way for Ansom to contact Charlie, such as another magic item. Now, because we know he can do it somehow, I would not consider that to be a 'new development' so much as an explanation of something we already know.

[Bongos]

You know, what if Parson had just put ALL the friggin dwagon's in the same stupid hex?

...I was gonna right more, but let's just leave it here.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

1) You only replied to on small part of my post. 1/6th, to be precise. That was also just an aside tacked onto the end. If you are going to complain about plot holes, you really need to be willing to think about (and respond to) the ideas presented, not just the ones you can argue with.

2) I don't see anyone saying parson is a Genius (Wanda wanted a genius, but Stanley mucked it up). Parson MAY BE a genius, we have nothing stating absolutely one way or another.

3) I have yet to see him be an idiot. In fact Parson has only ever been defeated by two things: Vinny (advising Ansom not to go after Jillian) and Stanley (not giving Parson a chance to finish his plan). As I have already explained, it is logically consistent that Parson expected the A dwagons to die. Maybe that was idiotic, but I don't think so, and we really have no way of knowing at this point.

4) Ansom has limited fast communication in that he can only communicate (short of using a messenger) to a few people (prior to his contract with Charlie). Through Vinny he gets reports from the bats. Through the hats he can contact whoever has the hat (first Jillian then Webinar). Note that all magical communication is essentially instantaneous, so all of these are .

5) Once he has the contract with Charlie, Ansom can contact the Archons via Charlie, and by extension, anyone. However, communicating through Charlie costs schmuckers. Let it be noted that for enough schmuckers, he can have two-way communications. This would really only be a practical expenditure if dialogue is necessary.

6) Using your 'answering machine' analogy, here's how it could have worked with plot continuity.
i) Jillian calls Ansom and leaves a message that she is going to croak the dwagons. (Yes insulting him, but also telling him the one thing he wants to hear most: that she loves him)
ii) Ansom calls Charlie and leaves a message that he REALLY needs to know where Jillian and the Archons are, and that he's wiling to pay for the information.
iii) Charlie, wanting to make more money off of Ansom and not wanting his Archions to get croaked, calls Jaclyn and leaves a message telling her to call him with her coordinates.
iv) Jaclyn calls Charlie and leaves a message with her coordinates.
v) Charlie calls Ansom and leaves a message with Jaclyn's coordinates.

So there we have it in 5 one way messages. I see no hole.

Now, the answering machine analogy is a little flawed, because it implies that the message may be sitting around for a while before it is received. The closest I can compare it to would be internet packet routing, but I doubt that will make sense to everybody.

Well, I've always hated those "Wall of text" responses, taking a post apart one by one. So I tend to limit myself. Personal quirk.

But lets look at this section of your post:

6) Using your 'answering machine' analogy, here's how it could have worked with plot continuity.
i) Jillian calls Ansom and leaves a message that she is going to croak the dwagons. <snip>
</snip>
v) Charlie calls Ansom and leaves a message with Jaclyn's coordinates.

Jillian Calls Ansom: 2-3 minutes.
Ansom calls Charlie: 2-3 minutes (4-6 total)
Charlie calls Jacyln for tactical info: 4-6 minutes, possibly more (8-12 total)
Charlie calls Ansom: 1-2 minutes. (9-14 minutes, again possibly more)
If you don't see the hole in one way communication, you're not looking.

A LOT can happen in 9-14+ minutes, but I seriously doubt Ansom can cross two hexes in that amount of time. If they had the "instantanious travel" paradigm, why show a long flight over land from where the girls ditched Webinar to the lake? Conversation when you need it, then warp in to the rescue when you need it? It's one, or it's the other, or it's a cheat. Otherwise Jillian would have warped in, grabbed dear beau, and bounced out.

Now, as for Parson being a genius/idiot, he was initially presented as quite smart. But no smart strategist ever leaves things to chance. If Parson had ANY doubt on Wanda's spell (and he did!), Parson would not have risked BOTH the A-dwagons AND the Warlords! If nothing else, he would have dropped the Warlords off in the B-ring, to add their bonus to the B-dwagons when he commenced to tap dancing on Ansom's head next turn! Putting all his important eggs in one basket like he did over the lake was a newbie mistake. Which means he would not have made that mistake, if the authors hadn't forced it upon him.

[SteveMB]

But lets look at this section of your post:

Jillian Calls Ansom: 2-3 minutes.
Ansom calls Charlie: 2-3 minutes (4-6 total)
Charlie calls Jacyln for tactical info: 4-6 minutes, possibly more (8-12 total)
Charlie calls Ansom: 1-2 minutes. (9-14 minutes, again possibly more)
If you don't see the hole in one way communication, you're not looking.

A LOT can happen in 9-14+ minutes, but I seriously doubt Ansom can cross two hexes in that amount of time. If they had the "instantanious travel" paradigm, why show a long flight over land from where the girls ditched Webinar to the lake? Conversation when you need it, then warp in to the rescue when you need it? It's one, or it's the other, or it's a cheat. Otherwise Jillian would have warped in, grabbed dear beau, and bounced out.

Games that feature any sort of character interaction typically treat talking as a free action. This is actually more realistic than the notion that it takes several minutes to read off two four-digit numbers.

Now, as for Parson being a genius/idiot, he was initially presented as quite smart. But no smart strategist ever leaves things to chance.

Smart strategists take calculated risks whenever there is no guaranteed-safe way of achieving a necessary objective. Each of the proposed guaranteed-safe ways of achieving this objective turns out to have at least one hole in it.

(Example: Parking the dwagons further away from the column reduces the damage done to the siege, and Parson has a two-turn window to eliminate it as a factor.)

If Parson had ANY doubt on Wanda's spell (and he did!), Parson would not have risked BOTH the A-dwagons AND the Warlords! If nothing else, he would have dropped the Warlords off in the B-ring, to add their bonus to the B-dwagons when he commenced to tap dancing on Ansom's head next turn!

That would reveal the warlord locations to the enemy when they scouted the dwagon ring. Ansom could then (using the exact tactic Parson had just demonstrated to him) surgically target the warlords and withdraw, thus preventing any further surgical attacks on the siege (non-surgical attacks would be ground up by Ansom's sheer numerical advantage).

[fendrin]

While it might be explained as "You've got Mail! From <subject> at <location>", using it as instantaneous communication and map updates hasn't been yet shown since they seem to have left the battle map at the command center; not taken it with them.

Fro the fact that Charlie ordered the archons to go to a certain set of coordinates, I presume they hae some way of knowing where they are. There is probably some 'universal coordinate system' similar to latitude and longitude. The Archons must have some way of determining their current location or they would need something other than coordinates to get to Jillian and Webinar.

You know, what if Parson had just put ALL the friggin dwagon's in the same stupid hex?

I addressed this in post #214 of this thread.

Well, I've always hated those "Wall of text" responses, taking a post apart one by one. So I tend to limit myself. Personal quirk.

I don't really like it either, but it is inevitable in this form of communication.

Jillian Calls Ansom: 2-3 minutes.
Ansom calls Charlie: 2-3 minutes (4-6 total)
Charlie calls Jacyln for tactical info: 4-6 minutes, possibly more (8-12 total)
Charlie calls Ansom: 1-2 minutes. (9-14 minutes, again possibly more)
If you don't see the hole in one way communication, you're not looking.

As I have said, we already know that time in erfworld does not work the same way it does in our universe. It is malleable, and is determined by what the erflings do. Again, for all intents and purposes, the communication is instantaneous.

As another example, Jillian had as much time as she wanted to talk send her message to Ansom. I would hypothesize that all of the other 'calls' I described could have been made prior to Jillian initiating combat. I further hypothesize that once a combat has been initiated, time can be imagined as splitting into 'sub-turns'. Each sub-turn would consist of an attack, then a counter-attack. Sub-turns are indivisible, but other things can take place between them, such as Ansom & Vinny traveling from the "base" hex to the lake hex. Again, movement is 'instantaneous'.

Note that given this flexible time system (in which almost all boardgames operate, btw) 'instantaneous' can be interpreted as 'happening before the next sub-turn begins'.

A LOT can happen in 9-14+ minutes, but I seriously doubt Ansom can cross two hexes in that amount of time. If they had the "instantanious travel" paradigm, why show a long flight over land from where the girls ditched Webinar to the lake? Conversation when you need it, then warp in to the rescue when you need it? It's one, or it's the other, or it's a cheat. Otherwise Jillian would have warped in, grabbed dear beau, and bounced out.

'instantaneous' travel does not mean 'does not pass through intervening space'. It means 'no matter how far away it is we have the time needed to get there, so long as we can move that far'. Other than that, yes, that is exactly Jillian's plan, and yes, Ansom can cross two hexes before Jillian gets croaked.

It seems like a weird, twisted concept of time, but it's just like how most boardgames operate. Think about Monopoly, for instance: no matter how much real-world time passes, a turn is still exactly one turn long. In Erfworld, one turn is one-half day, no matter how much perceived time each of those turns takes. A day is measured in turns, not in hours/minutes/seconds.

Now, as for Parson being a genius/idiot, he was initially presented as quite smart. But no smart strategist ever leaves things to chance. If Parson had ANY doubt on Wanda's spell (and he did!), Parson would not have risked BOTH the A-dwagons AND the Warlords! If nothing else, he would have dropped the Warlords off in the B-ring, to add their bonus to the B-dwagons when he commenced to tap dancing on Ansom's head next turn! Putting all his important eggs in one basket like he did over the lake was a newbie mistake. Which means he would not have made that mistake, if the authors hadn't forced it upon him.

1) Any strategist (smart or otherwise) knows that there is no such thing as a risk free strategy. Heck, that's why the game Risk is called Risk, after all. A smart strategist knows that "when your boops are in a vice", you have to take even higher risks.
2) In regards to "putting all his important eggs in one basket", see post 214, regarding my analysis of how he originally anticipated losing the A dwagons, which immediately renders them as not 'his important eggs'. As for not leaving the warlords with the B dwagons, he couldn't and maintain the illusion that the wounded dwagons were in the center hex, Vinny would have seen them when his bats scouted the ring. therefore, they must have also been expendable. For that matter, he put them in the spot were they were most protected. If he left them in the B ring, Ansom would have made it a point to wipe them out anyway, which also meant Ansom would not have gone around the long way on the ring, he would have pushed in through the warlord hex.
We still don't know where Toast and Ferdinand are. I am starting to think that they would have been a vital aspect of Parson's plan (of which we have only seen half, plus a vague outline of the entirety)

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Games that feature any sort of character interaction typically treat talking as a free action. This is actually more realistic than the notion that it takes several minutes to read off two four-digit numbers.

This goes agains my normal policy of not picking a post apart one by one.

Talking as a free action. I've seen plenty of jokes on this issue: characters trying to fillibuster their way out of a bad situation. Min/Max did it in Goblins, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head. You can only talk so long before it becomes an issue. Then you have to deal with the fact that it takes several minutes to talk, or give a speech, or whatever, and you need to allow for the passage of time.

I'll allow "Hey! Look behind you!" to be a part of a six second round. I won't allow "Four score and seven years ago..." or "I have a dream..." A warning can be short and reasonable, but girls chatting? It takes time. Relaying tactical information takes time. Moving two hexes takes time.

Smart strategists take calculated risks whenever there is no guaranteed-safe way of achieving a necessary objective. Each of the proposed guaranteed-safe ways of achieving this objective turns out to have at least one hole in it.

(Example: Parking the dwagons further away from the column reduces the damage done to the siege, and Parson has a two-turn window to eliminate it as a factor.)

Also against my normal nature: Agreed. If I agree, I don't usually post that I agree. But each of the other "safer" methods would have reduced the total number lost. Parson put ALL of his most important eggs into one basket, then stood back and watched as Jillian, the Archons, Ansom, Vinny and the gwiffins stomped seven kins of Hell out of them. If Parson saw the risk (which he certianly should have!), he would have done something different.

That would reveal the warlord locations to the enemy when they scouted the dwagon ring. Ansom could then (using the exact tactic Parson had just demonstrated to him) surgically target the warlords and withdraw, thus preventing any further surgical attacks on the siege (non-surgical attacks would be ground up by Ansom's sheer numerical advantage).

Sure, but with the "You can only move so far" rule, Ansom would not be able to take out Manpower in hex 1, Leroy Jenkins in hex 3, AND Lady Phat Singh in hex 5, if that is where Parson had split them up. OR Put Manpower in with the 19 A's, and put LPS and LJ in hexes 3 and 5. Even if you lose one hex, you still keep the other two Warlords.

If you're going to put all your eggs in one basket, put ALL YOUR FREAKIN' EGGS IN ONE BASKET! I bet there would not have been any damn PWNZ0Ring if Ansom had jumped into the middle of 19 wounded A's and 24 full health B's!

I've been arguing this point for a while, and I've been slowly gaining support. I'd really like to find out I'm wrong, and that this wasn't a forced plot point, but I'm just not seeing it from anyone.

Parson KNEW the 19 A's would be weak, and would NOT have left them out with their collective assess hanging out in the wind! They, AND THE WARLORDS RIDING THEM, were simply too valuable to risk on a "gamble." Especially since he clearly didn't trust the spell Wanda put on Jillian!

[Jasdoif]

If you're going to put all your eggs in one basket, put ALL YOUR FREAKIN' EGGS IN ONE BASKET! I bet there would not have been any damn PWNZ0Ring if Ansom had jumped into the middle of 19 wounded A's and 24 full health B's!

Strange, I recall Parson hitting particular targets within a hex just fine. Why do you think Ansom couldn't do the same, particularly since this would be immediately after the same thing was pulled on him?

[SteveMB]

Also against my normal nature: Agreed. If I agree, I don't usually post that I agree. But each of the other "safer" methods would have reduced the total number lost. Parson put ALL of his most important eggs into one basket, then stood back and watched as Jillian, the Archons, Ansom, Vinny and the gwiffins stomped seven kins of Hell out of them. If Parson saw the risk (which he certianly should have!), he would have done something different.

What, exactly? All of the proposed alternatives have holes at least as big as Parson's actual plan.

Sure, but with the "You can only move so far" rule, Ansom would not be able to take out Manpower in hex 1, Leroy Jenkins in hex 3, AND Lady Phat Singh in hex 5, if that is where Parson had split them up.

Why wouldn't he? He has three warlords (himself, Vinny, and Tarfu) to lead three surgical strikes. Parson knew that Ansom wasn't stupid, and therefore assumed that, given that opportunity, Ansom would be able to use his own tactic against him after seeing how it worked.

Putting any Warlords in the ring (which was going to be scouted) is simply writing them off. The only chance of preserving them for the second turn of surgical strikes was for the enemy to not get to their hex.

If you're going to put all your eggs in one basket, put ALL YOUR FREAKIN' EGGS IN ONE BASKET! I bet there would not have been any damn PWNZ0Ring if Ansom had jumped into the middle of 19 wounded A's and 24 full health B's!

Parking all the dwagons over the lake was probably the second-best option. The problem is that, without the ring to trick the enemy into thinking they'd found what they were looking for, they would have found the stack eventually*. Once that was done, the smart thing to do would be to turn Parson's tactic around (i.e. hit the warlords and pull out).

(OTOH, Wanda's spell might have worked well enough to partially screw that up, by inducing Jillian to recklessly engage dwagons willy-nilly instead of sticking to the plan.)

*Vinny's bats have 22 move, which would be sufficient for a half-dozen of them to cover the entire area the dwagons could reach with the move they'd have left.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Strange, I recall Parson hitting particular targets within a hex just fine. Why do you think Ansom couldn't do the same, particularly since this would be immediately after the same thing was pulled on him?

No, not quite. The dwagons took their "hitsies," and had to take out a couple of battle bears BEFORE they thrashed the towers. I would think the dwagons might be able to make Ansom & Co. bleed just a bit before they got to the chewy center.

[Jasdoif]

No, not quite. The dwagons took their "hitsies," and had to take out a couple of battle bears BEFORE they thrashed the towers. I would think the dwagons might be able to make Ansom & Co. bleed just a bit before they got to the chewy center.

OK....

So putting them all in one hex means one of Vinnie's bats will find all the dwagons. So Ansom's fliers can reach can charge into the hex, level the warlords and wounded dwagons, withdraw, and have move left to reach the column because they didn't have to waste time scouting or walking around a ring.

All in exchange for making them "bleed just a bit".


This...really doesn't sound like a better plan on Parson's part.

[SteveMB]

No, not quite. The dwagons took their "hitsies," and had to take out a couple of battle bears BEFORE they thrashed the towers.

The battle bears were among their designated surgical-strike targets, not an obstacle they had to get past to reach the towers.

I would think the dwagons might be able to make Ansom & Co. bleed just a bit before they got to the chewy center.

That doesn't change the fact that the would get to the chewy center, and they can afford the cost of doing it a lot more than Parson can afford to lose the warlords.

The bottom line is: If Team Ansom can get to the warlords' stack with a reasonably strong warlord-led force, they can take out the warlords. The only ways to prevent that are 1)physically prevent them from reaching the warlords' stack (Parson's Original Recipe plan) or 2)mislead them away from finding the warlords' stack (Parson's Extra Crispy plan).

[fendrin]

You are likely typing up a response to my previous post, so I wont respond to anything addressed in it. If you made a point that you think neither post addresses, let me know.

Also against my normal nature: Agreed. If I agree, I don't usually post that I agree.

If you do not at least say something like "I agree with your other points but..." then it is indistinguishable from somebody ignoring valid points. In order to maintain a civil debate, it is (in my opinion) imperative that good points not be ignored.

But each of the other "safer" methods would have reduced the total number lost. Parson put ALL of his most important eggs into one basket, then stood back and watched as Jillian, the Archons, Ansom, Vinny and the gwiffins stomped seven kins of Hell out of them. If Parson saw the risk (which he certianly should have!), he would have done something different.

Can you elucidate one such better strategies? Honestly, i don;t think it is possible because we do not know certain key points like just how far Ansom can move. Parson knows that because of the table, but we do not.

Sure, but with the "You can only move so far" rule, Ansom would not be able to take out Manpower in hex 1, Leroy Jenkins in hex 3, AND Lady Phat Singh in hex 5, if that is where Parson had split them up. OR Put Manpower in with the 19 A's, and put LPS and LJ in hexes 3 and 5. Even if you lose one hex, you still keep the other two Warlords.

I fail to see how that protects the warlords. Ansom flies Manpowers hex, surgically takes out the warlord, retreats, does the same thing to the other two. Warlords are gone, the dwagons are no longer a major threat. Return to column. Sure, he might lose another on or two pieces of siege, maybe even a few entire hexes from the column, but in the end Ansome keeps most of his remaining siege, a huge numerical superiority, and croaks the dwagons. Or, if Parson were to withdraw the dwagons after the warlords were killed, then as SteveMB has pointed out, Parson would be more booped than before.

Parson KNEW the 19 A's would be weak, and would NOT have left them out with their collective assess hanging out in the wind! They, AND THE WARLORDS RIDING THEM, were simply too valuable to risk on a "gamble." Especially since he clearly didn't trust the spell Wanda put on Jillian!

What you think are 'too valuable' to risk are not necessarily what Parson (or a true Perfect Strategist, for that matter) would think of as 'too valuable to gamble'.

Especially when it is gamble or die... or at least, gamble or lose.

[Tzomg]

This narrative is moving much too fast. I am out of breath, sir. Please develop less with each strip.

[teratorn]

Seen in this context, panels like the one below are lame and totally out-of-character, a clumsy attempt by the authors to paper over the plot pothole.

Huh? This panel is genius. It's where Parson feels for the first time this is more than a game, this is for real.

About Ansom knowing where Jillian was. It could be something quite simple: thinkagrams bring the coordinates of the sender.

[SteveMB]

Huh? This panel is genius. It's where Parson feels for the first time this is more than a game, this is for real.

I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but you may be on to something.

I've certainly had that feeling during an opponent's turn in games where you're a spectator during out-of-turn time. It was the same whether I'd made a mistake and paid for it, made a mistake and got away with it, or hadn't made any mistake at all.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

For those slamming Parson's command ability...knowledge of the system is paramount to successful peformance. While one can do good and even brilliantly for a time with limited knowledge, eventually the probability of screwing the pooch royally increases greatly as time goes on and your ignorance is tested.

He had no clue that Jillian would be able to get new orders, he was assured that the compulsion Wanda had placed Jillian under was failsafe (not being made aware of any potential problem until it was too late).

There are also a number of other things that he is not 100% familiar with...much like playing a game like 40k and not being aware of the special rules of all the units until they show up in your face.

His origional plan was very good for what he knew...brilliantly executed, and could only end in disaster for their enemy while sacrificing a few dwagons, perhaps a few warlords, but otherwise a huge strategic victory. Unknown variables screwed his plan all to hell and then he learned to late that one assumption (the compulsion was failsafe) was wrong.

The more he knows for sure, the better off he'll be...however, ther are times in which it doesn't matter how much brilliance you have, you are just screwed. Sometimes you are just hopelessly out matched and no manner of fancy tactics will help you defeat your enemy...you WILL die...and it won't be that pretty...

[Freederick]

Strange, I recall Parson hitting particular targets within a hex just fine. Why do you think Ansom couldn't do the same, particularly since this would be immediately after the same thing was pulled on him?

...So Ansom's fliers can reach can charge into the hex, level the warlords and wounded dwagons, withdraw, and have move left to reach the column because they didn't have to waste time scouting or walking around a ring.

Parking all the dwagons over the lake was probably the second-best option. The problem is that, without the ring to trick the enemy into thinking they'd found what they were looking for, they would have found the stack eventually*. Once that was done, the smart thing to do would be to turn Parson's tactic around (i.e. hit the warlords and pull out).

The bottom line is: If Team Ansom can get to the warlords' stack with a reasonably strong warlord-led force, they can take out the warlords. The only ways to prevent that are 1)physically prevent them from reaching the warlords' stack (Parson's Original Recipe plan) or 2)mislead them away from finding the warlords' stack (Parson's Extra Crispy plan).

I fail to see how that protects the warlords. Ansom flies Manpowers hex, surgically takes out the warlord, retreats, does the same thing to the other two. Warlords are gone, the dwagons are no longer a major threat. Return to column.

The Man says, in Klog #6: Flying stacks with a commander can selectively engage non-fliers on their own turn. (emphasis added)

Thus both of you are wrong; Ansom could not selectively target the warlords. This is supported by the canon in Erfworld 69: Jillian needs the Archons to punch through other stacks so she can reach the warlords.
______________________
Edit: Incidentally, while selective targeting of flyers is not allowed for combat, it seems to be allowed for non-combat purposes. See this post.

[fendrin]

The Man says, in Klog #6: Flying stacks with a commander can selectively engage non-fliers on their own turn. (emphasis added)

Thus both of you are wrong; Ansom could not selectively target the warlords. This is supported by the canon in Erfworld 69: Jillian needs the Archons to punch through other stacks so she can reach the warlords.

Yup, you're right. Now, Here's why this isn't a problem to me:
1) I interperet the klog entry to mean that (other than archers) the only ground units that can attack a commanded flying unit are the ground units they attack. That means that yes, Ansom & co would be able to be attacked by all of the dwagons.

This brings up the question of forest units: are they considered 'archers' when in forest hexes, or are the rules of engagement different when on the offences vs. on the defense?

2) even if all the dwagons need to be engaged before the 3 warlords can be engaged, they do not have to be croaked. As evidence, Jillian sacrifices the orlies so she can take a shot at the blue (presumably the strongest dwagon in the stack). Similarly, Vinny talks about using the bats to distract the dwagons to make it through the strong hex.

Therefore, all ansom would have to do is bring his entire air force (remember, at this point most of it is with Jillian, she hasn't sent Webinar and Toadface away yet). sure, they would lose a lot of fliers in the process, but better that than the siege.

Edit: Incidentally, while selective targeting of flyers is not allowed for combat, it seems to be allowed for non-combat purposes. See this post.

This fits nicely with my conception of 'sub turns'. Basically, combat hasn't started, so there are no limits on maneuverability. however, once aggression has begun, the formalized rules of warfare in erfworld kick in.

[Freederick]

This fits nicely with my conception of 'sub turns'. Basically, combat hasn't started, so there are no limits on maneuverability. however, once aggression has begun, the formalized rules of warfare in erfworld kick in.

So, does a Wet Willy qualify as aggression, or not?