OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread

[factotum]

Roy remembers the interview, he remembers everythingup to the point he passed the golden gates.

No he doesn't? He says when talking to Haley about it in #666:

"I remember the clouds, and my father, and a glowing ball of light. And I remember what I saw when I was floating around down here."

Given that the "glowing ball of light" introduced himself to Roy while they were still on the clouds, you'd think he'd have remembered that being his archon if he remembered that part of things clearly. You'd also think he would have mentioned the Blood Oath interview, which he does not.

[Worldsong]

No he doesn't? He says when talking to Haley about it in #666:

"I remember the clouds, and my father, and a glowing ball of light. And I remember what I saw when I was floating around down here."

Given that the "glowing ball of light" introduced himself to Roy while they were still on the clouds, you'd think he'd have remembered that being his archon if he remembered that part of things clearly. You'd also think he would have mentioned the Blood Oath interview, which he does not.

That quote you used is followed up by another sentence which clarifies things a bit further:

"But beyond the Big Golden Gate... it's all a blur. A big happy fulfilling blur, but still."

Everything beyond the golden gate lacks detail, but he phrases it as a contrast in that everything before the golden gate is remembered. And yes he called the archon a glowing ball of light and didn't mention the Blood Oath but you could find explanations for that which don't leave you to wonder why he'd specify that everything beyond the golden gate was a blur if everything beforehand was hazy as well.

Maybe he called the archon a glowing ball of light because that's what the archon is. Maybe he expected Haley to have questions if he called it the archon because archon isn't actually a very descriptive term so he just went with the straightforward approach. Maybe the archon just isn't that important. Maybe he didn't mention the Blood Oath since it doesn't affect him as long as he just keeps at it. Maybe he expects the others to start worrying if they hear about how it could have costed Roy his eternal rest. Maybe he's concerned they might start feeling obligated to follow him rather than doing it because they believe it's right. Maybe, once more, the Blood Oath would lead to more questions while once again not being that important (as long as he keeps at it). Or maybe he was just rattling off a quick description and wasn't planning to go into full detail.

All of them are maybes but they all fit the narrative because leaving out details and using simple descriptions for things and all that stuff is entirely normal for people to do. It doesn't require some weighty motivation either, people leave out details and information all the time. Hell, it could even be that at the moment of describing his stay in the waiting room the name of the glowing ball of light evaded him without it meaning he couldn't remember anything of importance up there.

EDIT: Oh, another one, maybe he HAS talked about the archon and the Blood Oath in more detail to his friends, but off screen since not every conversation is written down.

[Fyraltari]

No he doesn't? He says when talking to Haley about it in #666:

"I remember the clouds, and my father, and a glowing ball of light. And I remember what I saw when I was floating around down here."

Given that the "glowing ball of light" introduced himself to Roy while they were still on the clouds, you'd think he'd have remembered that being his archon if he remembered that part of things clearly. You'd also think he would have mentioned the Blood Oath interview, which he does not.

Interview: on the clouds, which he remembers.

Archon: not on the clouds.

Everything before the gates he remembers, everything after he is unclear but he knows there was a glowing ball of light and he remembered the Spellsplinter.

[pwning doodes]

It occurrs to me that it must be extra nice for Green Dwarf and his "family", since the first time he went to Hel. He got his death right this time around, though. (I think he was one of the resurrected ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

[hroþila]

Interview: on the clouds, which he remembers.

Archon: not on the clouds.

Everything before the gates he remembers, everything after he is unclear but he knows there was a glowing ball of light and he remembered the Spellsplinter.

Archon: on the clouds.

[Fyraltari]

It occurrs to me that it must be extra nice for Green Dwarf and his "family", since the first time he went to Hel. He got his death right this time around, though. (I think he was one of the resurrected ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

You mean Kandro?

Yes he is.

Thirden became a successful bard, Shira owns mines, Logann's mother had children, Hoskin married and Kandro got his do-over.

Edit:

Archon: on the clouds.

So Roy remembers knowing a glowing ball, but not who that was. Makes sense to me.

[Squire Doodad]

You mean Kandro?

Yes he is.

Thirden became a successful bard, Shira owns mines, Logann's mother had children, Hoskin married and Kandro got his do-over.

Shirra works in a silver mine does not necessarily own it, though honestly its not much of a stretch to say that shes an overseer or possibly actually runs the whole thing.
All of them got a second chance at life and managed to do well with it though, and that's what matters.
Kandro did something a bit more important but I can't recall what.

[Mightymosy]

Actually yes.
Even within OotS, the Vector Legion have a strong relationship with each other. While to some extent there is that bit of "you try to take advantage of the friendship and you wake up with a knife in your neck", they do care about each other. Look at how Laurin reacted when she found out Malack was killed.

There's also something about Nale and Sabine. They might be both evil, but they literally have the healthiest romantic relationship in the comic up until the Katos become a thing. I'm pretty sure the "sacrificial altar for love" bit was more of a sexual drive thing than their actual relationship.

In regard to the "Can Evil characters have functioning relationships with other people" question, did everyone just forget about Laurin and her daughter, or the Black Dragon and her son? While one could argue that hiding a double-life as part of a continental conspiracy of nations under the pretext of helping isn't exactly the healthiest of interpersonal relationships, it seems to by all means be loving and genuine. And there really can't be any argument that the ABD didn't love her son, and also by some incidental dialogue one can infer she really cared for her mate as well.

What those two characters were willing to do for their kids was messed up and Evil, but the actual bond those characters had was seemingly as healthy as such things get, at the very least being better than the relationships most of the OOTS have with their own families, except for probably Durkon.

Yes to both of those.

In fact, VL seems to be made to emphasize just how well *internally* a group of otherwise totally rotten evil people can be.

People bring up Tarquin and Malack's discussion - but I would compare this to Roy and Elan......I'd think the former have a more healthy relationship.
Yes, Tarquin is REALLY quick to get over Malack's death, but then I remember Roy's reaction to Elan being abducted....

For me, VL's internal relations remind me VERY MUCH of the old Giant quote about the two endbosses.

I feel like a lot of Eugene's behaviour has to do with him being stuck in the cloudzone for years on end with no release in sight. Granted even before his death he's depicted as a terrible father but most of his more questionable acts have to do with him being desperate to finally pass on for good.

Not that this exonerates him but good people can become quite unpleasant if they're stressed and pushed to the limit.

And as has been pointed out by others, he did immediately acknowledge that the dwarves being cast to Hel would be a bad thing and tried to figure out a solution. Of course he tried to figure out a solution which would include him passing on, but it's not like he just dismissed the dwarves as being unimportant. His idea of letting the gods destroy the world was based on the idea that good people would go to the good afterlives.

Which is another point. Part of this thread has been about how the dwarven perspective is odd, but it's not like everyone who is not a dwarf in the OotS world has a perspective regarding death comparable to ours. Everyone is aware that the afterlives exist and that your afterlife depends on your alignment (on death mostly). The dwarves are just the extreme example where they've been informed that unless they die with honour they're automatically thrown into a bad afterlife so they're the ones who are downright enthusiastic about dying as long as it's honourable.

For Eugene to decide that the gods might as well destroy the world is obviously for the largest part motivated by his desire to just. Freaking. Pass. On. Already (emphasizing this in an attempt to portray his mindset), but also because the alternative could be that the snarl devours all the souls left on the planet, and also because the good people are going to get the good afterlives anyway so it's not as horrible an idea as it would be for us. Hel, back at the Godsmoot Roy had to concede that Heimdall might have a good argument for destroying the world.

Like Roy Eugene was an adventurer during at least part of his life, and if Roy's mother is to be believed he wasn't a stranger to death and resurrection. I'm not saying that Eugene isn't very unpleasant and twisted by his desperation but his willingness to let the world be destroyed might partially be because this story is about a world where death is not the end and (most) people get their just rewards after death, which softens the awfulness of death a bit. So while the dwarves have an extreme perspective, one of unusual glee, the other inhabitants of the world might just be more neutral to the position especially if they're personally familiar with the process.

EDIT: of course the good people still try to prevent others dying if possible: Roy in particular makes it clear that he doesn't approve of genocide even if it would only come about through inaction. But it does seem to me that it's possible for someone to be more nonchalant on the issue without it changing their alignment from Good to Neutral or Evil.

I mean, hasn't that been a topic for debate long before Eugene showed his face? How the DnD alignment system must somehow use a definition of Good which allows for the possibility of killing without it harming your karma? In our world to kill is most often at best only seen as a necessary evil and only when dealing with absolute monstrous people.

Just want to say that
"soften the awfulness" is quite the understatement! Not only do the OotS people KNOW there IS an afterlife, it even contains stuff a lot of RL people would gladly switch their actual RL for, I'd think.

That really changes the discussion more than people seem acknowledge, even if the author complains that Roy still finds death bad despite how pleasant the afterlife is.

A paradise after death REALLY makes death less unpleasant.
That's the whole point of a paradise after death, whether that's a house with your mother and your little brother or a card game and beer with Thor.

[zimmerwald1915]

All of them got a second chance at life and managed to do well with it though, and that's what matters.

Which has some telling implications, actually. All they needed to get out of a life in the mines was a kick in the pants - or in other words, sufficient will? There wasn't anything keeping them there? No lack of capital that prevented them pursuing a life of idle investment or eclectic education, for instance? It can't be that dwarven society has generous social support. Sigdi subsists on a meager pension, and the Firehelms anticipate being tossed out on the street.

[Rrmcklin]

Yes to both of those.

In fact, VL seems to be made to emphasize just how well *internally* a group of otherwise totally rotten evil people can be.

People bring up Tarquin and Malack's discussion - but I would compare this to Roy and Elan......I'd think the former have a more healthy relationship.
Yes, Tarquin is REALLY quick to get over Malack's death, but then I remember Roy's reaction to Elan being abducted....

For me, VL's internal relations remind me VERY MUCH of the old Giant quote about the two endbosses.

Comparing Tarquin and Malack's relationship to Roy and Elan's doesn't actually make sense for this. Tarquin and Malack, despite their difference were supposed to be best friends. Roy, very clearly, disliked Elan when he abandoned him, and even now they aren't what I would call "best friends." The two relationships aren't framed in the same way for the comparison to be meaningful.

If you did want to do that, Roy and Durkon strike me as the better compare and contrast, and they come out looking better than Tarquin and Malack from every angle that I can see.

[Fyraltari]

Which has some telling implications, actually. All they needed to get out of a life in the mines was a kick in the pants - or in other words, sufficient will? There wasn't anything keeping them there? No lack of capital that prevented them pursuing a life of idle investment or eclectic education, for instance? It can't be that dwarven society has generous social support. Sigdi subsists on a meager pension, and the Firehelms anticipate being tossed out on the street.

I don't think Shirra could have sued the pants of the company without having an accident first. The money from that probably helped the others, too.

EDIT: Also, these being dwarves therés a good chance that miner is actually a well-respected middle-class job.

Furthermore, Logann’s mom and Hoskin only wanted to start families, they may still be miners. Squeaky had dropped off of Bard’s school presumably due to lack of moral investment, so a kick in the guts would probably be just what he needed (higher education (if Bard’s school counts as that) does not actually need to be stupidly expensive).
I’m not sure if Kandro got a job as a warrior or anything.

Also Hoskin used a pick in the current comic which lend credence to him still being a miner.

[Rogar Demonblud]

We don't know what's up with Squeaky and bard camp. Maybe he needed a scholarship as a nontrad.

Whatsername (seriously, Rich, give us a name please) wanted to start a family. Not sure if that just means getting serious with someone she was already seeing or needing a friend to play matchmaker. Probably not a lot of money involved either way.

Hoskin had the most trouble it seems, as he had to figure out finding a woman who wanted to get married.

And Kandro just needed to get down the old weapons and practice more, so as to be ready when an opportunity came up (or down, as the case may be).

[zimmerwald1915]

We don't know what's up with Squeaky and bard camp. Maybe he needed a scholarship as a nontrad.

Whatsername (seriously, Rich, give us a name please) wanted to start a family. Not sure if that just means getting serious with someone she was already seeing or needing a friend to play matchmaker. Probably not a lot of money involved either way.

Hoskin had the most trouble it seems, as he had to figure out finding a woman who wanted to get married.

And Kandro just needed to get down the old weapons and practice more, so as to be ready when an opportunity came up (or down, as the case may be).

Minimizing the obstacles that a shift in the mines, which could probably go up to 14 hours, six days per week, places in front of any of these goals is quite in line with the overall message that all anyone needs to do to get out of a life of drudgery is sufficient will.

[hroþila]

Yes to both of those.

In fact, VL seems to be made to emphasize just how well *internally* a group of otherwise totally rotten evil people can be.

People bring up Tarquin and Malack's discussion - but I would compare this to Roy and Elan......I'd think the former have a more healthy relationship.

I think the most telling aspect of Tarquin's relationship with Malack wasn't that the he got over his death so quickly. That I could understand - hey, people have different reactions and mourn the way they need to, right? No, the defining moment of that relationship for me was when Tarquin told Malack to shut up about his spawn because he was sick of hearing about it.

Frankly, I think Malack must have been quite starved for affection if he put up with THAT, but I don't want to give Luna any ideas.

[Fyraltari]

Minimizing the obstacles that a shift in the mines, which could probably go up to 14 hours, six days per week, places in front of any of these goals is quite in line with the overall message that all anyone needs to do to get out of a life of drudgery is sufficient will.

Assuming dwarves treat mining the same way humans do IRL.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah. I just laid out the steps they had to take. Since we know nothing about dwarven lifestyles, we don't really know what other factors are involved. I would not be surprised if there's a militia-drill day where Kandro could have been training, for instance.

[zimmerwald1915]

Assuming dwarves treat mining the same way humans do IRL.

Not a bad assumption, considering. OOTS-dwarves are short humans with an odd cultural quirk that any human society in similar circumstances might have developed. Same for the various other peoples.

[Jasdoif]

And Kandro just needed to get down the old weapons and practice more, so as to be ready when an opportunity came up (or down, as the case may be).

When the opportunity came up, Kandro went down.

Minimizing the obstacles that a shift in the mines, which could probably go up to 14 hours, six days per week, places in front of any of these goals is quite in line with the overall message that all anyone needs to do to get out of a life of drudgery is sufficient will.

"Where there's a will, there's a way"; as the saying goes. Which is a pithy version of "Without a will, you won't see the point in looking for a way, so you'll never find one."

[zimmerwald1915]

"Where there's a will, there's a way"; as the saying goes. Which is a pithy version of "Without a will, you won't see the point in looking for a way, so you'll never find one."

There's a big leap between saying will is necessary to achieving your goals and saying it is sufficient in the face of any practical obstacles.

[Fyraltari]

Not a bad assumption, considering. OOTS-dwarves are short humans with an odd cultural quirk that any human society in similar circumstances might have developed. Same for the various other peoples.

They live in subterranean countries. I think that particular quirk would change their outlook on mining. Also Durkon became a miner, quit (or was fired) because he hadn’t much talent for it and became a Cleric despite Sigdi’s and his wealth level. So I don’t think it’s that hard to quit mining. And three of the five might very well still be miners (well, two now).

[Jasdoif]

There's a big leap between saying will is necessary to achieving your goals and saying it is sufficient in the face of any practical obstacles.

The pithy version is almost certainly more popular because it glosses over the effort, yes.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think that particular quirk would change their outlook on mining.

It demonstrably has not - it's still a low-status job and industrial accidents are not considered honorable deaths. The material incentives behind why mining takes place, and thus the prevailing practices in the industry, aren't all that unfamiliar either.

Also Durkon became a miner, quit (or was fired) because he hadn’t much talent for it and became a Cleric despite Sigdi’s and his wealth level. So I don’t think it’s that hard to quit mining.

Durkon's stint as a miner is marked by three peculiarities: 1) he did it on a lark, not because his family needed the money (whatever he told himself); 2) Sigdi had a guaranteed pension, no matter how meager, and so he didn't have to support himself on his wages in any event; and 3) he was working in his "aunt's" mine and probably received preferential treatment on that basis.

(An aside: Mr. Burlew is an American and as such probably assumes an at-will employment regime for every profession. It is, in this regime, as easy to quit any job as saying "I quit." The reality is, of course, more complicated even in at-will regimes, and any number incentives pressure people into staying in jobs they might not otherwise stay in.)

[Resileaf]

I think the most telling aspect of Tarquin's relationship with Malack wasn't that the he got over his death so quickly. That I could understand - hey, people have different reactions and mourn the way they need to, right? No, the defining moment of that relationship for me was when Tarquin told Malack to shut up about his spawn because he was sick of hearing about it.

Frankly, I think Malack must have been quite starved for affection if he put up with THAT, but I don't want to give Luna any ideas.

I thought the most telling point was when Malack told Tarquin to shut up and stop goofing around to test Elan and Tarquin accepted the criticism.

[hroþila]

I thought the most telling point was when Malack told Tarquin to shut up and stop goofing around to test Elan and Tarquin accepted the criticism.

I disagree, because Malack's criticism was "Stop putting your children above mine" and Tarquin continued to do just that while lying to Malack's face about it. Tarquin didn't really accept his criticism, he simply defused the situation.

Which is telling in itself, of course, but in a negative way, and not as much as the other incident.

[Fyraltari]

It demonstrably has not - it's still a low-status job

[Citation needed]

and industrial accidents are not considered honorable deaths.

How is this relevant?

The material incentives behind why mining takes place, and thus the prevailing practices in the industry, aren't all that unfamiliar either.

What's your basis for this assertion?

Durkon's stint as a miner is marked by three peculiarities: 1) he did it on a lark, not because his family needed the money;

How do you know any of them needed the money?

2) Sigdi had a guaranteed pension, no matter how meager, and so he didn't have to support himself on his wages in any event;

Good point.

and 3) he was working in his "aunt's" mine and probably received preferential treatment on that basis.

We both know Sigdi would have ripped Shirra's eyes out of her head if that were the case.

(An aside: Mr. Burlew is an American and as such probably assumes an at-will employment regime for every profession. It is, in this regime, as easy to quit any job as saying "I quit." The reality is, of course, more complicated even in at-will regimes, and any number incentives pressure people into staying in jobs they might not otherwise stay in.)

He is also the one who decides how this universe works, so...

[Mightymosy]

I think the most telling aspect of Tarquin's relationship with Malack wasn't that the he got over his death so quickly. That I could understand - hey, people have different reactions and mourn the way they need to, right? No, the defining moment of that relationship for me was when Tarquin told Malack to shut up about his spawn because he was sick of hearing about it.

Frankly, I think Malack must have been quite starved for affection if he put up with THAT, but I don't want to give Luna any ideas.

Who is more starving for affection:
Elan for Roy's
or
Malack for Tarquin's
?

Given how Burlew wrote an article how evil people can still be genuine friends and how people are wrong thinking that evil people will automatically betray each other, the way VL seems to work with each other seem to underline that idea to me.

This was even commented on by Sabine and Quarr - that evil people can discuss their differences very reasonably.

To me, this made Tarquin and his team a much more "real" antagonist than Xykon and RC, for example, even though they might be more powerful in D&D terms.

[zimmerwald1915]

How is this relevant?

It's relevant to proving the former point, to which you said "citation needed." Soldiering is a high-status profession, which we know because combat deaths are honorable deaths and because soldiers are given a pension. We know by contrast that deaths in the mine are not honorable deaths, and can infer from this that mining is a low-status profession.

What's your basis for this assertion?

Common sense? The usefulness of mining in our world is that it makes available natural resources for exploitation - either in craft, industry, or trade. That is true of this world as well. Shirra's mine is specifically a silver mine.

Dwarves might have an added incentive of creating for themselves more living space, but 1) the Supper Club don't seem to have been doing that work, since a tunnel people were meant to live in long-term would have had better attention paid to its ventilation and 2) the Firehelms used the term "cave" for their home and not "mine," so the term for doing the work would probably be something other than "mining" as well. We use the term "boring" or "construction" for tunnel-making.

How do you know any of them needed the money?

Why else would they be mining, as seemingly unconnected (which we know because they all found connections in each other after their resurrection) adults? For fun? Mining destroys your body, and even if dwarves are more hardy than humans, it would have the same deleterious effects over time. No living mammal has yet developed a biological use for rock dust in the lungs. It's obviously to support themselves.

We both know Sigdi would have ripped Shirra's eyes out of her head if that were the case.

Which is why Durkon and Shirra have every incentive not to tell her. Nepotism can be hidden. The fact that Durkon got maimed or killed in an industrial accident cannot.

[Fyraltari]

It's relevant to proving the former point, to which you said "citation needed." Soldiering is a high-status profession, which we know because combat deaths are honorable deaths and because soldiers are given a pension. We know by contrast that deaths in the mine are not honorable deaths, and can infer from this that mining is a low-status profession.

That's asinine. Honorable death has to do with the way you die, not your profession. Dying accidentally is not dying with honor wether you are a miner or a soldier.

Common sense? The usefulness of mining in our world is that it makes available natural resources for exploitation - either in craft, industry, or trade. That is true of this world as well. Shirra's mine is specifically a silver mine.

Dwarves might have an added incentive of creating for themselves more living space, but 1) the Supper Club don't seem to have been doing that work, since a tunnel people were meant to live in long-term would have had better attention paid to its ventilation and 2) the Firehelms used the term "cave" for their home and not "mine," so the term for doing the work would probably be something other than "mining" as well. We use the term "boring" or "construction" for tunnel-making.

There's also creating roads, ventilation chimneys, light sources and whatever else actually living 24/7/12 underground requires. Also ventialtion doesn't save you when you stumble unto a pocket of poison gas. And anyway they were mining copper.
I would also like to know your basis for the whole "the goal of the industry is the same so the pravailing practices are the same".

Why else would they be mining, as seemingly unconnected (which we know because they all found connections in each other after their resurrection) adults? For fun?

Let me rephrase, "How do you know they didn't have other job opportunities?

Mining destroys your body, and even if dwarves are more hardy than humans, it would have the same deleterious effects over time. No living mammal has yet developed a biological use for rock dust in the lungs. It's obviously to support themselves.

How many mamals have two livers? How many were designed by gods to live underground and fit an archetype?
And even then, maybe dying of rock dust poisining as a miner counts as an honorable death.

Which is why Durkon and Shirra have every incentive not to tell her. Nepotism can be hidden. The fact that Durkon got maimed or killed in an industrial accident cannot.

We both know Durkon wouldn't lie to Sigdi. Also, Durkon wasn't maimed, what are you talking about?

[Resileaf]

I disagree, because Malack's criticism was "Stop putting your children above mine" and Tarquin continued to do just that while lying to Malack's face about it.

I'm kind of confused by what you're talking about here.

[Fyraltari]

I disagree, because Malack's criticism was "Stop putting your children above mine" and Tarquin continued to do just that while lying to Malack's face about it. Tarquin didn't really accept his criticism, he simply defused the situation.

Which is telling in itself, of course, but in a negative way, and not as much as the other incident.

It's also woth noting that apoligizing to the literally-spitting-bloos vampire that gets in your face while channelling dark magicks is less a sign of a healthy relationship and more a sign of a functionning survival instinct.