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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    unless plot magic.
    Rich has made it explicitly clear that the Snarl is a one-way trip; the only way one could survive the Snarl is if either they weren't actually killed, or the Snarl stores the souls somewhere. Even True Resurrection (which Rich has gone out of his way to establish is not going to appear) will not be able to bring someone back.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
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    In the end, its all in the cards...

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    I haven't seen anything in-comic that would suggest that. Where did that idea come from?
    Is there anything in-comic to support the cushy retirement option?
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Do we have any reason to think Xykon couldn't retreat to his astral hide-away if the Snarl breaks free?

    I could see him rampaging (kill Redcloak) and just plan on hiding away and planning to start his legacy on the new world. It seems like just the material plane gets obliterated, and thus he'd be safe on the astral, though that doesn't feel right.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Do we have any reason to think Xykon couldn't retreat to his astral hide-away if the Snarl breaks free?

    I could see him rampaging (kill Redcloak) and just plan on hiding away and planning to start his legacy on the new world. It seems like just the material plane gets obliterated, and thus he'd be safe on the astral, though that doesn't feel right.
    Assuming he always has a spell in place to permit him to flee to the fortress (which given most estimates of his level is likely), then it seems unlikely unless he uses it up at the same time a Dimensional Anchor gets thrown on or something. There's no way for him to not be able to without adding in preexisting circumstances which makes it highly speculative.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    It seems like just the material plane gets obliterated, and thus he'd be safe on the astral, though that doesn't feel right.
    I have doubts that the entire Eastern Pantheon was on the Material Plane when the Snarl killed them.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I have doubts that the entire Eastern Pantheon was on the Material Plane when the Snarl killed them.
    I mean, if the gods can hide away somewhere very, very far, and Xykon has hidden his in the deeper areas of the Astral Planes, then he could conceivably survive assuming he doesn't a) get his memories wiped/spontaneously killed by something the gods do to stop the Outsiders from going mad or b) goes mad of his own lack of things to do.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I have doubts that the entire Eastern Pantheon was on the Material Plane when the Snarl killed them.
    The other three pantheons explicitly hit from the Snarl in their "Outer Planes homes", so we know the Snarl can't get that far, and in fact the entire Plan involves moving gates into the homes of the gods so the Snarl can reach them, further corroborating that. It's unclear if it can reach the Astral or Ethereal Planes when free--I would say that the Gods felt able to build their planetary gravestones on the Astral means it, at least, is probably safe from the Snarl, but I have no proof of that, obviously.

    Thinking about it, since the Eastern Pantheon is pretty clearly based on Greek mythology, isn't it possible that they made their homes on top of a honkin' great mountain on World #1 rather than away in the Outer Planes like the other pantheons?
    Last edited by factotum; 2019-06-13 at 02:09 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The other three pantheons explicitly hit from the Snarl in their "Outer Planes homes", so we know the Snarl can't get that far....
    We only know the Snarl didn't get that far. We don't know how they explicitly hid, nor if the Snarl even had the capability of finding them in spite of their hiding, nor if the Snarl would be able to get them if it found them. And as you were saying, the Astral Plane isn't one of the Outer Planes, so those things wouldn't necessarily apply even if we did know them.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Thinking about it, since the Eastern Pantheon is pretty clearly based on Greek mythology, isn't it possible that they made their homes on top of a honkin' great mountain on World #1 rather than away in the Outer Planes like the other pantheons?
    It's certainly possible. Just as it's possible all the gods were in exactly the same general area in the same Outer Plane when the Snarl revealed itself; and the Snarl hated the "color" of green quiddity so it killed the Eastern Gods in preference to the world (which contained green quiddity) in preference to the other gods...who had fled by that point.

    "Possible" isn't going to get us very far, I'm afraid....Which is kind of why "Xykon'd be safe in his astral plane fortress" is an unwarranted claim.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    We only know the Snarl didn't get that far. We don't know how they explicitly hid, nor if the Snarl even had the capability of finding them in spite of their hiding, nor if the Snarl would be able to get them if it found them.
    I think there's enough evidence to suggest the Snarl definitely can't get to the Outer Planes. There have been countless worlds since the beginning of time, and after each one the Snarl is freed for however long it takes the Gods to make the next world. If it hasn't been able to get to the gods in the Outer Planes in all that time, I think it's reasonably safe to assume that it cannot. Plus, as I mentioned, the whole point of the Plan is to enable the Snarl to attack the gods in the Outer Planes--why would that be necessary if it could get there anyway?

    My reasoning for the Snarl not being able to get to the Astral Plane either is that the "graveyard" for the worlds is there. I suppose it's possible that the Gods don't create the marker for the previous world until the Snarl is safely imprisoned in the next one, but I personally believe it more reasonable that they create the marker very soon after the world's destruction, while the Snarl is still free, and why would they risk doing that if they were in a location where it could get at them? You would think they'd put the markers in the Outer Planes if that were the case.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    In regards to Xykon possibly fleeing to his Astral fortress in the event of the world's destruction, there is the little matter that, currently unknown to him, Redcloak has pulled a switcheroo on his phylactery and thus the one being protected in the fortress is not the real article. Thus, if Xykon flees without first discovering and recovering his real phylactery, then it will be destroyed along with the world (probably when Redcloak is destroyed if he is keeping it on him).

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
    In regards to Xykon possibly fleeing to his Astral fortress in the event of the world's destruction, there is the little matter that, currently unknown to him, Redcloak has pulled a switcheroo on his phylactery and thus the one being protected in the fortress is not the real article. Thus, if Xykon flees without first discovering and recovering his real phylactery, then it will be destroyed along with the world (probably when Redcloak is destroyed if he is keeping it on him).
    That doesn't actually matter, at least not if we believe what Xykon says in SoD:

    Spoiler
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    Redcloak threatens to destroy the phylactery and Xykon tells him to go ahead, because "I'm not in there right now". Destroying the phylactery does not destroy Xykon unless his body has already been destroyed and his soul has been forced to take refuge.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Is there anything in-comic to support the cushy retirement option?
    Yes, Redcloak discusses the upcoming betrayal and says they can give him a cushy retirement is the new goblin nation.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    Yes, Redcloak discusses the upcoming betrayal and says they can give him a cushy retirement is the new goblin nation.
    So you did read Start of Darkness. This conversation happens when Redcloak had just met Xykon, is his employer/accomplice rather than slave and generally has no idea when he's getting into. And he clearly acknowledges they might need to have the Dark One kill him anyway. That's before Xykon had abused and humiliated Redcloak for decades, including the very end of Start of Darkness.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think there's enough evidence to suggest the Snarl definitely can't get to the Outer Planes. There have been countless worlds since the beginning of time, and after each one the Snarl is freed for however long it takes the Gods to make the next world. If it hasn't been able to get to the gods in the Outer Planes in all that time, I think it's reasonably safe to assume that it cannot. Plus, as I mentioned, the whole point of the Plan is to enable the Snarl to attack the gods in the Outer Planes--why would that be necessary if it could get there anyway?
    So it can get where the Gods are?
    You don't win hide&seek by hiding in a room where the seeker can't enter, you win by hiding where he can't find you. I don't think the snarl is unable to go to the outer planes. He just doesn't do it. Why would he? There's nothing for him there...
    The whole purpose of the ritual is to give TDO control over the gate so he can put it directly behind the other gods.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    I don't think the snarl is unable to go to the outer planes. He just doesn't do it. Why would he? There's nothing for him there...
    You mean, other than the Gods he hates and wants to see destroyed?

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    You mean, other than the Gods he hates and wants to see destroyed?
    That's assigning a level of motive to the Snarl that there's not yet any evidence for. With the info we have, it seems like a fly aiming at the nearest "light source", even if the consequences are very different.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    I haven't seen anything in-comic that would suggest that.
    That is a truly remarkable display of not seeing.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    I canít see an ending to this comic that involves Xykon being alive (err... or not destroyed, or whatever you do to undead to make them stop waking around).

    Heís a sadistic, impulsive, half-mad epic level lich who wants to rule the world. I donít see a way to integrate him into a the world of the future in a way that resolves the conflict.

    He *might* be convinced to allow himself be destroyed, but that seems very unlikely.

    I think heís going down with a fight.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I canít see an ending to this comic that involves Xykon being alive (err... or not destroyed, or whatever you do to undead to make them stop waking around).

    Heís a sadistic, impulsive, half-mad epic level lich who wants to rule the world. I donít see a way to integrate him into a the world of the future in a way that resolves the conflict.

    He *might* be convinced to allow himself be destroyed, but that seems very unlikely.

    I think heís going down with a fight.
    Or at least being destroyed. It's possible that he will go down just the way he was originally going to- everyone gets into fighting position, Roy charges, Xykon tells RC to cast a spell or do something, RC stops for a moment, thinks and then


    "Disrupt" on Roy's blade, Xykon's gone. No lengthy fight rife with one-liners and reversals, just a brief 2 round defeat.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    In the end, its all in the cards...

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Or at least being destroyed. It's possible that he will go down just the way he was originally going to- everyone gets into fighting position, Roy charges, Xykon tells RC to cast a spell or do something, RC stops for a moment, thinks and then

    "Disrupt" on Roy's blade, Xykon's gone. No lengthy fight rife with one-liners and reversals, just a brief 2 round defeat.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptingWeapon.htm

    On the face of it, that was always impossible in the first instance, and still is even with RC (who can cast ninth level spells) now. Xykon must have more hit dice than RC has caster levels...

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptingWeapon.htm

    On the face of it, that was always impossible in the first instance, and still is even with RC (who can cast ninth level spells) now. Xykon must have more hit dice than RC has caster levels...
    The spell Durkon cast was Disruption, not Disrupting Weapon.

    There are (at least) two ways to read that.

    1) D&D rules uber alles: Durkon meaninglessly said the spell name wrong, Roy's sword was never actually a threat to Xykon.
    2) Knowledge you have to look up in a D&D book, which isn't suggested in the comic, is probably invalid: Durkon cast Disruption, a spell which could have destroyed Xykon's body. It's found in the same book as Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell.

    I think pushing option #1 suggests a lack of attention to Rich's creative process.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    They could pass Xykon a note.

    Quote Originally Posted by ďnote to XykonĒ
    Do you want to help not destroy the world? If so, check this box.

    [. ] yes

    P.S. Redcloak is going to betray you.
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    The spell Durkon cast was Disruption, not Disrupting Weapon.

    There are (at least) two ways to read that.

    1) D&D rules uber alles: Durkon meaninglessly said the spell name wrong, Roy's sword was never actually a threat to Xykon.
    2) Knowledge you have to look up in a D&D book, which isn't suggested in the comic, is probably invalid: Durkon cast Disruption, a spell which could have destroyed Xykon's body. It's found in the same book as Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell.

    I think pushing option #1 suggests a lack of attention to Rich's creative process.
    3) In the Azure City fight - despite casting a bunch of last-minute buffs on Roy before he jumped, and expecting Xykon to be amongst the invaders (and thus having motive to prepare it) - Durkon did not cast "Disruption" on Roy's sword. Almost as if he knew it wouldn't have helped, whatever he said the prior time...

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Plus, as I mentioned, the whole point of the Plan is to enable the Snarl to attack the gods in the Outer Planes--why would that be necessary if it could get there anyway?
    Because sending the Snarl directly after gods without giving them time to prepare for it drastically impacts those gods' preparedness for it (the sudden attack worked well enough in Snarl-vs-Eastern-Pantheon). And the Snarl's already not on the Material Plane; it's clearly able to operate beyond a single plane on its own.


    My overall Snarl theory hypothesis at this point is that the Snarl and rifts can span multiple planes, much like how a 3D sphere intersects multiple 2D planes. And that, like a sphere, their cross section is bigger on planes closer to their origin point. And that the rifts are where a transplanar line expands out on onto a plane, and a big enough rift on the Material Plane means there are smaller rifts on adjoining planes. And that the Gate ritual doesn't actually move the line that's the the center of the trans-planar rift, but magically shifts the rift along that line to the corresponding point another plane...resulting in an explosive growth unlike that ever seen before from the perspective of that plane, which could well be enough to put gods in reach of the Snarl. This would handily explain why they keep trapping the Snarl rather than making a new world somewhere else, as well as why the Gate ritual can't move the rift to another spot on the same plane.

    That is, of course, highly conjectural; particularly since the only known case of the Snarl killing gods is from before there was anything intended to contain/restrict the Snarl...which is a good reason not to use it as a foundation for calling something "safe".

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    My reasoning for the Snarl not being able to get to the Astral Plane either is that the "graveyard" for the worlds is there.
    It'd certainly be a reasonable conclusion that if Xykon's astral tomb thingy was in there with the monuments that have been safe from the Snarl, that it's probably safe from the Snarl. Since it's not, we're back at the point where I don't see not enough certainty to warrant the word "safe" in "just get off the Material Plane and you're safe". If nothing else, it's unclear if the barrier plays any role at all, nor if there's some factor of the planar geography that Xykon wouldn't have any knowledge of when he chose the site for his fortress-tomb-thingy.

    I mean, if we were going to go with "well we haven't seen it happen in all these eons, so it's safe to assume it can't happen" for the Snarl getting to the Outer Planes, I think the same logic would have to apply to unliving creature living enduring Snarlmageddon to see the next world. Why haven't we seen that? And why wouldn't we have seen that in a way that doesn't apply to why we haven't (explicitly) seen gods annihilated by the Snarl on an Outer Plane?

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    3) In the Azure City fight - despite casting a bunch of last-minute buffs on Roy before he jumped, and expecting Xykon to be amongst the invaders (and thus having motive to prepare it) - Durkon did not cast "Disruption" on Roy's sword. Almost as if he knew it wouldn't have helped, whatever he said the prior time...
    Xykon's will save is too high for that spell, but they didn't know that the first time they fought him.
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    If nothing else, it's unclear if the barrier plays any role at all, nor if there's some factor of the planar geography that Xykon wouldn't have any knowledge of when he chose the site for his fortress-tomb-thingy.
    The barrier, as far as described, is just an illusion that hides the monuments rather than any sort of impediment to progress, although, given the Astral is an infinite plane, I suppose "The Snarl hasn't found this bit yet" is always a possibility. I just think it's a risk the Gods have no reason to take, however infinitesimally small the chances of a problem become.

    As for the Snarl not being on the material plane right now, that's the "tiny demiplane" that forms its prison. It hardly went there of its own volition! It can travel out of it by breaking its prison, but that doesn't mean it can make any other planar journeys.

    As for the Snarl: I think the fact it chose to destroy the Eastern Gods first, *then* the planet, implies it has some particular hatred for the gods who created it. Yes, it desires destruction of anything, but there are priorities there.

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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    As for the Snarl: I think the fact it chose to destroy the Eastern Gods first, *then* the planet, implies it has some particular hatred for the gods who created it. Yes, it desires destruction of anything, but there are priorities there.
    If the gods were on the planet, that order of events is expected.

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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    I haven't seen anything in-comic that would suggest that. Where did that idea come from?
    There, there and there. Oh and the fact that Xykon hijacked Redcloak's plan and caused the death of counless (hob)goblins including
    Spoiler: SoD
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    tricking Redcloak into killing his own little brother.


    Redcloak loathes Xykon.
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    If the gods were on the planet, that order of events is expected.
    To add onto that, it could easily be plenty smart enough to recognize the way that quiddity makes things more durable, and so went ahead and killed off all of one pantheon to prevent it from being able to be permanently trapped. In such a case, the Eastern Gods were simply closest and/or most convenient.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    Default Re: Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    To add onto that, it could easily be plenty smart enough to recognize the way that quiddity makes things more durable, and so went ahead and killed off all of one pantheon to prevent it from being able to be permanently trapped.
    Except, not only was the Snarl not trapped at this point (it was world #2 that was its first prison), it explicitly states in the strip that "The Snarl was a thing born of chaos. It did not understand the pattern of the threads, even as it watched them take form around him." Until it was actually imprisoned for the first time it didn't know the Gods could even do that, so it seems unlikely that it planned ahead to that extent!
    Last edited by factotum; 2019-06-16 at 02:50 AM.

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