Why the heroes should explain things to Xykon

[Alex Warlorn]

Xykon isn't unintelligent, and he understands the 'rules' the heroes play by (EDIT: NOT like Elan's dad understands the 'rules' of a narrative. He condescendingly knows heroes are too stupid to lie through their teeth at the final fight, which

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he's been on the losing end during his mortal life more than once.

If they told him 'The Snarl is gonna eat the world ANYWAY, if you blackmail the gods or not!' he'd know it wasn't a bluff!
Xykon is a sadistic murderer who places no value on the lives of anyone, but he's made clear that he doesn't mind the idea of eventually losing to a band of heroes... after he's seared himself into the memories of the world forever with a tenure as world dictator. He can't HAVE a legacy if the world and all souls there-in are unmade by the Snarl!

Sure, Redcloak is preparing to betray Xykon, and Xykon is readying himself for the moment Redcloak does the deed... But it would be more practical for the heroes to spell it out that NEITHER villain is going to archive their end goal no matter who wins! Same as Durkon trying to get Redcloak to tell his master that the Snarl is going to destroy everything unless he works WITH the other gods!

EDIT: Xykon was willing to let Roy leave and level-up and become more of an actual challenge for him.
And

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Xykon explicitly said he wants his LEGACY to be 'ruled the world.'

ALSO EDIT: Elan's dad wanted to rule part of the world from the shadows and die of old age, and didn't mind being an unknown to history as long as he lived a life of luxury in the mean time, and had a cold view what 'should' and 'shouldn't' happen in this adventure.

[Fyraltari]

Are you confusing Xykon and Tarquin?
Xykon has made it repeatedly clear that he doesn’t intend to be beaten by ANYONE.

[GloatingSwine]

If Xykon is presented with the options of win, flip the table, or throw the game he's going to go for a or b every time.

Throwing the game just isn't in his nature.

[factotum]

Yeah, I think you're confusing villains here. I'm pretty sure Xykon would take grim delight in watching the world burn from the safety of his fortress on the Astral Plane.

[martianmister]

That sounds like Tarquin.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

You're definitely mistaking with Tarquin. And, while I am of the (probably nonexistant) camp that says Tarquin will show up in the next book headed north with what remains of the Vector Legion, to help his son because he's thought of the consequences of his actions, and probably also "redemption arcs are catching on these days", Tarquin will never be convinced by someone else. He is the convincer, not the convincee.

[SirSoliloquy]

An anticlimax is the perfect ending for a villain whose chief concern is plot structure, so I think we're never going to see Tarquin again.

[Squire Doodad]

It sounds much more like what would happen if Tarquin was the big bad; he values his life moreso than being victorious - part of why he has flipped sides so often.
Xykon is smart enough to know that if his victory means his own death, it isn't worth it. However, that won't stop him. He knows he can just pop out to his fortress and survive, so he's probably going to just roll with it.

Explaining has a chance of working for both Xykon and RC, but Xykon is more likely to just burn everything if he is told his last few decades were pointless, whereas RC will go through a traditional panic attack and might end up not ending all things.

[CriticalFailure]

I think explaining things to Xykon will work if they tell him that the ritual won't give him anything and only helps TDO. In which case Xykon presumably adopts a new hobby of goblinoid genocide, starting with the one in the red cloak.

I think explaining things to Redcloak has a lot of ways it could go awry. In particular, if Xykon is told that the ritual won't help him and Redcloak doesn't know that TDO won't survive between worlds, it's very likely he'll destroy the final gate as a last ditch effort for plan B. Overall, I think it's very likely the last gate will fall and Redcloak being the one to do it in an attempt to salvage the plan also seems pretty likely.

[The Pilgrim]

Overall, I think it's very likely the last gate will fall and Redcloak being the one to do it in an attempt to salvage the plan also seems pretty likely.

There is only one small problem for that theory, though...

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Redcloak already blew up the first Gate, and so far each Gate has been blown up by a different person.

[Morty]

The premise of the thread seems to be right for the wrong reasons. It would benefit the Order to reveal Redcloak's treachery to Xykon, simply because that makes a two-side fight into a three-side fight even if Xykon can't just obliterate Redcloak in short order.

This has nothing to do with legacy or anything else, though. Xykon was willing to let Roy level up because it'd be more interesting this way. His major motivation a lot of the time is simple boredom and lack of anything that'd challenge him.

[Reboot]

The premise of the thread seems to be right for the wrong reasons. It would benefit the Order to reveal Redcloak's treachery to Redcloak, simply because that makes a two-side fight into a three-side fight...

Yeah. Redcloak would be beside himself with anger ;)

[Fyraltari]

But they need to work with Redcloak in order to re-seal the Gates. Getting on his bad side is counter-productive.

[martianmister]

The premise of the thread seems to be right for the wrong reasons. It would benefit the Order to reveal Redcloak's treachery to Xykon, simply because that makes a two-side fight into a three-side fight even if Xykon can't just obliterate Redcloak in short order.

This has nothing to do with legacy or anything else, though. Xykon was willing to let Roy level up because it'd be more interesting this way. His major motivation a lot of the time is simple boredom and lack of anything that'd challenge him.

But they want to make an alliance with Redcloak and his god, ratting him out to Xykon is a terrible way to do that.

[Morty]

True, I sort of assumed a situation where they would want to fight Redcloak for some reason and forgot that Thor's mission for Durkon precludes that. In this case yeah, they're not going to want to do it.

Then again, I will be surprised if anything goes as smoothly as Thor told Durkon it would.

[tomandtish]

...If they told him 'The Snarl is gonna eat the world ANYWAY, if you blackmail the gods or not!' he'd know it wasn't a bluff! ...

Except remember that our heroes have no reason to assume he is operating from different info than they are. As far as they know, Xykon and Redcloak know exactly what will happen and don't care. They don't really know WHAT the villains' plan is, so they don't know that about the blackmail scheme.

[Plus_C]

People keep saying they should turn Xykon against Redcloak by telling him the truth, have you not been reading the comic? They need Redcloak (or at least the Dark One) to help stop the Snarl, being pasted by Xykon would put a dampener on that.

[Fyraltari]

Except remember that our heroes have no reason to assume he is operating from different info than they are. As far as they know, Xykon and Redcloak know exactly what will happen and don't care. They don't really know WHAT the villains' plan is, so they don't know that about the blackmail scheme.

They do actually. Xykon was pretty clear about wanting to rule the world, not destroy it, and Thor told them about the "Plane-shifting the Gates" part of the plan.

The rest is pretty simple inferences to make.

[CriticalFailure]

What do you think of the possibility that they don't realize that Redcloak has been lying but they accidentally end up revealing it when trying to parlay with Redcloak?

[tomandtish]

They do actually. Xykon was pretty clear about wanting to rule the world, not destroy it, and Thor told them about the "Plane-shifting the Gates" part of the plan.

The rest is pretty simple inferences to make.

Yep. You are right. I had forgotten that bit. I stand corrected.

[Finagle]

Even if Redcloak wins, Xykon doesn't get killed. He gets a comfy retirement in Goblinoid Paradise and likely a leading role in The New Plan: enslave everyone who's not a goblinoid.

[Fyraltari]

Even if Redcloak wins, Xykon doesn't get killed. He gets a comfy retirement in Goblinoid Paradise and likely a leading role in The New Plan: enslave everyone who's not a goblinoid.

No, I'm pretty sure that Redcloak wants Xykon deader than dead at this point.

[Morty]

Yeah, I'm not sure why we should assume that what Redcloak said before Xykon even became a lich is remotely true. If Redcloak doesn't try to kill Xykon once he can actually do it and justify it to himself, it won't be for a lack of wanting to.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, I'm not sure why we should assume that what Redcloak said before Xykon even became a lich is remotely true. If Redcloak doesn't try to kill Xykon once he can actually do it and justify it to himself, it won't be for a lack of wanting to.

Oh, I’m sure he was being honest at the time. But their relationship turned out very differently from what he was picturing.

[Wizard_Lizard]

No, I'm pretty sure that Redcloak wants Xykon deader than dead at this point.

deader than dead dead?

[Morty]

Oh, I’m sure he was being honest at the time. But their relationship turned out very differently from what he was picturing.

That's my point, yes. At that moment, he was probably really willing to give Xykon a cushy retirement in the new goblin nation. Not so much now.

[Wizard_Lizard]

That's my point, yes. At that moment, he was probably really willing to give Xykon a cushy retirement in the new goblin nation. Not so much now.

A cushy retirement in Carceri.

[Fyraltari]

deader than dead dead?

Ain’t no coming back from the Snarl.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Ain’t no coming back from the Snarl.

unless plot magic.

[Finagle]

No, I'm pretty sure that Redcloak wants Xykon deader than dead at this point.

I haven't seen anything in-comic that would suggest that. Where did that idea come from?