An odd plot hole, Star of Darkness Spoilers

[Alex Warlorn]

Spoilers ahead!

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I know that this is meant to be just a deconstruction of goblins, orcs, etc, being just walking sacks of XP and GP for player characters ... And in that regard it works perfectly.

But IN story, I'm left confused as to why the gods didn't just create some non-sapient, highly aggressive nasties with an instinct for collecting gold if they needed opponents for their clerics to level-up with.

[hamishspence]

Only 1/3 of the gods are good. If the Evil gods and enough of the Neutral gods agree, they can push through decisions that the Good gods might dislike.

[martianmister]

Evil gods needs souls too.

[hroþila]

This is not a plot hole. It is something that potentially paints the gods in a bad light, but that's reinforced by much of the comic.

[factotum]

Well, there's also the critical point that the only person who says that goblinoids were created purely as XP fodder is Redcloak, and he's presumably getting that information from the Dark One--who (a) wasn't present when the world was created and (b) has a vested interest in giving Redcloak the biggest reason possible for carrying out the Plan. It's not 100% guaranteed reliable information, is what I'm saying.

[deuterio12]

Things that the "good" gods in the comic do:
-Randomly throw lighting bolts over the mortal realms while blindfolded.
-Randomly bestow colon cancer spells upon their clerics.
-Set up bets with the other gods for the lulz that force people to live strict lifes following codes all the time and seek a messy violent death if they don't want to go to Hel(l) (but no warning whatsoever that if you get violently killed by a vampire your soul still gets trapped in your corpse as new evil spirit takes over).

So "good" is relative. The evil gods are probably even nastier, but the "good" gods enjoy seeing mortals squirm and suffer too as their children get struck down by random lighting bolts.

[martianmister]

Things that the "good" gods in the comic do:
-Randomly throw lighting bolts over the mortal realms while blindfolded.
-Randomly bestow colon cancer spells upon their clerics.
-Set up bets with the other gods for the lulz that force people to live strict lifes following codes all the time and seek a messy violent death if they don't want to go to Hel(l) (but no warning whatsoever that if you get violently killed by a vampire your soul still gets trapped in your corpse as new evil spirit takes over).

So "good" is relative. The evil gods are probably even nastier, but the "good" gods enjoy seeing mortals squirm and suffer too as their children get struck down by random lighting bolts.

None of those are true.

[Angrith]

None of those are true.

Eh, the first one is. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

The rest is... described rather misleadingly. The colon tumor is technically what Durkon asked for, so I wouldn't say it was random. As for the bet, it's been argued to death in other threads; I won't touch it.

[martianmister]

Those lightning bolts cause random storms, he doesn't throw those to the ground, especially not to the children as he claimed.

[Fyraltari]

Almost gave a colon cancer.
And Loki isn’t a good god as far as we know.

[zimmerwald1915]

Those lightning bolts cause random storms, he doesn't throw those to the ground, especially not to the children as he claimed.

. . . Lightning from storms hits the ground.

[deuterio12]

Those lightning bolts cause random storms, he doesn't throw those to the ground, especially not to the children as he claimed.

Ah, my bad then.

"Good" Thor's the god of "lol look at the puny mortals dying from random storms I create at random while blind and drunk".

So the child body count will be much higher as a full random storm can be a lot deadlier than just a random lighting bolt.

A single storm includes lots of lighting bolts if nothing else.

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.

And Loki isn’t a good god as far as we know.

Loki's the one that giving a third alternative to "life shackled by mountains of rules" and "literal Hel(l)". Allowing actual free will is pretty goodish last time I checked.

[zimmerwald1915]

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.

I'm pretty sure none of the dwarves go straight to Hell without the benefit of a hearing. And given what we've seen of those, it seems all they need is a colorable argument that they shouldn't go to her to avoid it. "I died in personal combat with a god" should do.

Loki's the one that giving a third alternative to "life shackled by mountains of rules" and "literal Hel(l)". Allowing actual free will is pretty goodish last time I checked.

We have nothing for that but Hilgya's word, and Hilgya's word is not trustworthy. In any event, "your third option is to serve ME!" is hardly Good.

[Morty]

Because then we wouldn't have a critical satire on the "evil races" of fantasy gaming. Or the gods decided it's easier if those convenient bags of XP can sustain a civilization. But mostly the first thing, because there's no real need to overthink it.

[The Aboleth]

"Good" Thor's the god of "lol look at the puny mortals dying from random storms I create at random while blind and drunk".

Thor has never been shown to take delight in the deaths of mortals (EDIT: Except for the followers of Loki, perhaps, but even then I wouldn't categorize it as "delight" over their deaths). Your statement here is simply not true.

Thor has been shown as being irresponsible and/or reckless, but that's not the same as going, "LOL, people are dying! Isn't that hilarious?!"

So the child body count will be much higher as a full random storm can be a lot deadlier than just a random lighting bolt.

Again, intent matters. That storms can cause random deaths is not necessarily Thor's fault, unless you consider every death ever the fault of the Gods because they made the world and sometimes things in the world kill people. That's not a position I agree with, personally.

A single storm includes lots of lighting bolts if nothing else.

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.

That is a bad side effect of the bet...which is why Thor has gone to great lengths to teach Dwarven society how to act as honorably as possible all the time so that such occurrences of dishonorable death are mitigated to their lowest possible level. Thor was dealt a bad hand (remember, he was drunk when Loki proposed the Bet, and so wasn't in a right state of mind when he agreed to it*) and has presumably done the best he can to make it work out in the Dwarves' favor.

*I suppose you could blame him for being drunk in the first place, but to me that comes off as victim-blaming. Loki was sober and manipulated the situation--most, if not all, of the blame falls on him IMO.

Loki's the one that giving a third alternative to "life shackled by mountains of rules" and "literal Hel(l)". Allowing actual free will is pretty goodish last time I checked.

The only evidence we have of this is Hilgya's words; we don't actually know if she's actually correct in this assessment. EDIT: Partially ninja'd, though I don't think Hilgya is necessarily lying here--just potentially incorrect.

[Peelee]

The only evidence we have of this is Hilgya's words; we don't actually know if she's actually correct in this assessment. EDIT: Partially ninja'd, though I don't think Hilgya is necessarily lying here--just potentially incorrect.

You could wholly agree; Zim said Hilgya's word isn't trustworthy, not that she lied. If I got near-blackout drunk last night and then tried to tell you everything that happened, you would consider my account untrustworthy, despite that I believed I was recounting everything truthfully.

[deuterio12]

I'm pretty sure none of the dwarves go straight to Hell without the benefit of a hearing. And given what we've seen of those, it seems all they need is a colorable argument that they shouldn't go to her to avoid it. "I died in personal combat with a god" should do.

In that case the gods blowing up the world would also count as honorable death.

But it specifically doesn't. So nope, dying as collateral damage from a god's actions is specifically not honorable.

It's actually a central plot point right now.

We have nothing for that but Hilgya's word, and Hilgya's word is not trustworthy. In any event, "your third option is to serve ME!" is hardly Good.

It is a significant improvement when you're no longer being forced to marry somebody you don't even know under threat of crossbow by the followers of "good" Thor.

Thor has never been shown to take delight in the deaths of mortals (EDIT: Except for the followers of Loki, perhaps, but even then I wouldn't categorize it as "delight" over their deaths). Your statement here is simply not true.

THOR IS LITERALLY SQUEALING IN DELIGHT WHILE RAINING DOWN RANDOM STORMS UPON THE MORTALS!

Not bothering to read the rest of your post until you at least explain how "squealing in delight" does not actually mean delight, because if you're just going to ignore the comic to that point, there's nothing I can do to change your mind about "good" Thor "marriage with unknown people at crossbow point are a-ok".

[The Aboleth]

You could wholly agree; Zim said Hilgya's word isn't trustworthy, not that she lied. If I got near-blackout drunk last night and then tried to tell you everything that happened, you would consider my account untrustworthy, despite that I believed I was recounting everything truthfully.

Fair point. I just wanted to be clear that I was drawing a line between "being intentionally untruthful" and "trying to be truthful but might might not actually be so due to not knowing all the facts yet." Perhaps a minor distinction, admittedly, but it was important to me.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE-POST:

THOR IS LITERALLY SQUEALING IN DELIGHT WHILE RAINING DOWN RANDOM STORMS UPON THE MORTALS!

Not bothering to read the rest of your post until you at least explain how "squealing in delight" does not actually mean delight, because if you're just going to ignore the comic to that point, there's nothing I can do to change your mind about "good" Thor "marriage with unknown people at crossbow point are a-ok".

First of all, you'll get a lot more responses to your posts if you tone down the aggression. Just something to consider.

Second, Thor is not "squealing in delight" at killing mortals; he is squealing in delight at throwing lightning bolts. If I'm having fun playing darts but one of my darts accidentally hits someone in the eye and kills them, I'm not going to enjoy the fact my dart killed them--I'd be mortified, as I believe Thor would be.

Now, you have a point that Thor--being a God whose actions with literal lightning bolts COULD cause unnecessary deaths--should exercise greater care and caution...which is why I said he has been reckless and irresponsible. Those aren't the same things as being malicious, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

In that case the gods blowing up the world would also count as honorable death.

But it specifically doesn't. So nope, dying as collateral damage from a god's actions is specifically not honorable.

There is a distinction between dying from "a god's" actions and "the gods'" actions, but you've clearly made up your mind and I don't actually care that much.

It is a significant improvement when you're no longer being forced to marry somebody you don't even know under threat of crossbow by the followers of "good" Thor.

Whataboutism, and with a crossbow, no less! Really shooting for the stars with this troll, aintcha?

And I'm curious, where was it established that the Firehelms ever followed Thor? Not that it would matter, but it's a claim, there must be some evidence behind it.

[hamishspence]

It is a significant improvement when you're no longer being forced to marry somebody you don't even know under threat of crossbow by the followers of "good" Thor.

Where does the comic say Hilgya's family were Thor-worshippers? He's not the only god the dwarves worship - just the most popular one.

[deuterio12]

And I'm curious, where was it established that the Firehelms ever followed Thor? Not that it would matter, but it's a claim, there must be some evidence behind it.

I could do it, but if it's gonna get ignored like the comic of "good" blind, drunk Thor literally laughing his ass off as he randomly smites mortals with random storms, then it's just not worth the effort.

[The Aboleth]

I could do it, but if it's gonna get ignored like the comic of "good" blind, drunk Thor literally laughing his ass off as he randomly smites mortals with random storms, then it's just not worth the effort. The comic is not evidence enough, nothing's good enough evidence for you.

Please see my edit above. Also, Thor is not "randomly smiting mortals." While it is possible his lightning bolts are hurting people, it is also possible they are just harmlessly striking uninhabited areas of the world. You're assuming the worst-case scenario to bolster your argument.

[hroþila]

I could do it, but if it's gonna get ignored like the comic of "good" blind, drunk Thor literally laughing his ass off as he randomly smites mortals with random storms, then it's just not worth the effort.

Great dodge, massive cop-out 👍

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Added to the fact that only the lore of the Dark One states that goblinoids were created with the purpose of being xp fodder is the fact that Redcloak and TDO still think that this is only the second world. Add to THAT the fact the world is a "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody" meaning there were goblins here from the start, as part of the world, as were all other xp fodders

[deuterio12]

Please see my edit above. Also, Thor is not "randomly smiting mortals." While it is possible his lightning bolts are hurting people, it is also possible they are just harmlessly striking uninhabited areas of the world. You're assuming the worst-case scenario to bolster your argument.

The best-case scenario is that Thor's drunk blind storms never hurt a single person.

But that's simply a statistical impossibility. Over thousands of years, mortals will end up smitten by Thor's delight.

So yes, Thor's blind, drunk storms will caused pain, suffering, loss and death of people with 99.99999999999999(9)% certainity. The exact percentage is unknown, but it's sure damn higher than zero.

Surely people in the past already screamed to the heavens asking "what did I do to deserve being hit by that random storm that left me a cripple, destroyed my home and beloved family oh mighty Thor?"

And the terrible truth is "Thor was blind and drunk and having a great time, and he's gonna do it again."

Thor would know that his storms are hurting people, storms are his job, people would pray to him about them. But he still keeps doing it. Drunk and blind. And squealing in delight.

Thor has been shown as being irresponsible and/or reckless, but that's not the same as going, "LOL, people are dying! Isn't that hilarious?!"

Then what's he laughing at "LOL that forest is burning! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol that boat is sinking! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol river overflowing and sweeping away everything in land! Isn't that hilarious?!" What's so exactly so funny about storms that isn't dangerous/lethal?

Again, intent matters. That storms can cause random deaths is not necessarily Thor's fault, unless you consider every death ever the fault of the Gods because they made the world and sometimes things in the world kill people. That's not a position I agree with, personally.

Colon cancer. Why did the gods create that, and why is "good" god Thor willing to give it to his clerics? What kind of non-evil use is even there for colon cancer? How can a "good" god hear a request for that and go "yep, I'm pretty sure they'll give a righteous use to that".

That is a bad side effect of the bet...which is why Thor has gone to great lengths to teach Dwarven society how to act as honorably as possible all the time so that such occurrences of dishonorable death are mitigated to their lowest possible level. Thor was dealt a bad hand (remember, he was drunk when Loki proposed the Bet, and so wasn't in a right state of mind when he agreed to it*) and has presumably done the best he can to make it work out in the Dwarves' favor.

*I suppose you could blame him for being drunk in the first place, but to me that comes off as victim-blaming. Loki was sober and manipulated the situation--most, if not all, of the blame falls on him IMO.

Being a chronic drunk is not a valid excuse. Thor should've learned to sober up by now.

Instead he keeps getting drunk then adds a blindfold before starting to throw random storms around.

The only evidence we have of this is Hilgya's words; we don't actually know if she's actually correct in this assessment.

Hilgya is correct in that Loki isn't telling her to marry a complete stranger.

And remember, Durkon the cleric of Thor specifically told Hilgya that she should've just accepted to be married to a complete stranger at crossbow point and smoother their own feelings in the name of "honor".

So hurrah for Thor teaching the dwarfs how to be an "honorable" society by forcing daughters to marry at crossbow point with people they don't know!

[hamishspence]

Then what's he laughing at "LOL that forest is burning! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol that boat is sinking! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol river overflowing and sweeping away everything in land! Isn't that hilarious?!" What's so exactly so funny about storms that isn't dangerous/lethal?

He's yelling "Whee"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

he's not actually laughing. Especially not laughing at misery.

[The Aboleth]

You know, I was going to respond to each of your points, but this:

Hilgya is correct in that Loki isn't telling her to marry a complete stranger.

And remember, Durkon the cleric of Thor specifically told Hilgya that she should've just accepted to be married to a complete stranger at crossbow point and smoother their own feelings in the name of "honor".

So hurrah for Thor teaching the dwarfs how to be an "honorable" society by forcing daughters to marry at crossbow point with people they don't know!

makes me feel like you have no interest in good-faith debate and will instead move the goalposts rather than consider the validity of other people's points. So, I'm done with this discussion.

[martianmister]

. . . Lightning from storms hits the ground.

Ah, my bad then.

"Good" Thor's the god of "lol look at the puny mortals dying from random storms I create at random while blind and drunk".

So the child body count will be much higher as a full random storm can be a lot deadlier than just a random lighting bolt.

A single storm includes lots of lighting bolts if nothing else.

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.

Storms and lightnings are part of the nature.

[CriticalFailure]

Spoilers ahead!

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I know that this is meant to be just a deconstruction of goblins, orcs, etc, being just walking sacks of XP and GP for player characters ... And in that regard it works perfectly.

But IN story, I'm left confused as to why the gods didn't just create some non-sapient, highly aggressive nasties with an instinct for collecting gold if they needed opponents for their clerics to level-up with.

I mean, you answered your own question. The gods in OOTS created humanoid sacks of XP because GMs and campaign writers frequently create campaigns/settings in which goblins etc are humanoid sacks of XP and OOTS is in part about the game itself. Why don't GMs and campaign writers make non-sapient nasties? Well, that's complicated, and I'm by no means an expert on the topic but if you ask me a lot of it probably has to do with the history of how fantasy gaming emerged from fantasy literature emerged from older folk tales and literature. I might be wrong but it seems some creatures such as goblins end up getting written up as "normal" type creatures that have a culture and a similar outlook to humans while retaining traits originating from their role as mischievous or evil spirits/fairies/supernatural beings.

[martianmister]

GMs aren't creating actual sentient/sapient creatures though, they create fiction.