Dark Phoenix

[Rodin]

Because the plot (or at least the source plot) not only isn't bad...it's really good. Just like we've seen bad versions of (insert any of a number of Shakespeare stories here, for instance) that does't mean there isn't room for a good version. No, the Phoenix Saga isn't Shakespeare, but it is pretty highly valued for a ongoing comic storyline. As such, it might have had a chance.

But since they hadn't properly built Scott and Jean, hadn't properly prepared us for the Phoenix Saga, it had no shot. You can't suddenly have Wolverine and then Mystique as the faces of the franchise (because their actors are currently popular) and then tell a story that relies very heavily on investment in Scott and Jean as not only romantic leads but pillars of the team and expect it to have anywhere near the same impact.

The very lukewarm reception for the end of GoT and the relative dissatisfaction with Sophie Turner as Sansa (Personal note: I thought she did fine as Sansa, for the most part) meant it had zero star power, so I think that was an additional drag on opening weekend (along with Apocalypse hangover and X3 as you mention).

- M

Keep in mind that most people (even within the target demographic of people who like superhero stuff) likely haven't read the Phoenix Saga. Heck, given that the original comic came out in 1980, it's likely that a decent chunk of actual comic book readers haven't read it.

For movie-going audiences, the familiarity with Phoenix is entirely from Last Stand. Which was terrible. To make matters worse, it's a re-telling of the whole plot again. Superrhero movies do have a distressing tendency to re-tell origin stories over and over again, but they generally do try to vary it up. Especially these days, when attempts to do another re-hash of a story we all know is likely to fail (Fant-four-stic, anyone?).

I get why the studio and comic book fans would want to do the story. What I don't see is how they intended to overcome the awful taste left in the mouths of cinema viewers. They needed to build up a much higher reputation for quality before attempting this.

[GloatingSwine]

I get why the studio and comic book fans would want to do the story. What I don't see is how they intended to overcome the awful taste left in the mouths of cinema viewers. They needed to build up a much higher reputation for quality before attempting this.

I expect they were counting on everyone having forgotten Last Stand because it was 13 years ago.

The entire MCU has happened since and they expected people to just go see the latest superhero thing.

We live in a universe where Aquaman made a billion dollars for gods sake! Anything goes.

[Mordar]

That, I think, is why it can’t be filmed.

Because the way to tell that story in a movie is closely inside the head of the character it’s happening to. Perfect Blue and Black Swan show how it works.

The emotional core of the story gets communicated by us living it with the character. It would have to be as close to Jean as Logan was to its protagonist. With as spare a presentation for everyone else.

But the Dark Phoenix story doesn’t adapt to that because it’s intended to sit in a series full of other characters and viewpoints.

So an adaptation that carried the core of Jean’s story would upset people who wanted everyone else.

I don't think I get this. Shouldn't it be able to sit perfectly in a series full of other characters? That's how it worked in the original medium. That's why people cared about Jaime and Cersei (or Brienne), while caring about Jon and Daenerys, or any of the other characters/relationship storylines in GoT...or for that matter non-relationship storylines. Because we became invested in multiple characters over time, and then tumultuous things happened to some number of them and we were emotionally impacted. We were never impacted, though, by the characters with entire arcs completed in a single episode.

I get why the studio and comic book fans would want to do the story. What I don't see is how they intended to overcome the awful taste left in the mouths of cinema viewers. They needed to build up a much higher reputation for quality before attempting this.

I mostly agree, and would like to add "...and properly develop the key characters..." between "quality" and " before attempting this".

- M

[GloatingSwine]

I don't think I get this. Shouldn't it be able to sit perfectly in a series full of other characters? That's how it worked in the original medium. That's why people cared about Jaime and Cersei (or Brienne), while caring about Jon and Daenerys, or any of the other characters/relationship storylines in GoT...or for that matter non-relationship storylines. Because we became invested in multiple characters over time, and then tumultuous things happened to some number of them and we were emotionally impacted. We were never impacted, though, by the characters with entire arcs completed in a single episode.
- M

The original version of the story took place over fI’ve years of serialisation (between the original Phoenix story and the Dark Phoenix), and that in a denser medium than film because comics can pack much more information into a panel. (especially back in the ‘80s, when they were much more text heavy)

Likewise Game of Thrones is a hundred hours of television not two and change. (Though Breaking Bad would have been a better comparison, that’s still 50+ hours of storytelling)

Dark Phoenix can sit in a series of other characters, but not in a movie.

Logan worked because the existing series had put so much emphasis on Wolverine, the same was never done for Jean and she’s never really interesting enough to carry the focus of the series until she at least has the power of the Phoenix to deal with.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Dark Phoenix could be done well. As the capstone of a multi-year/multi-film arc. You maybe wouldn't need to build it for a decade like the MCU did with Thanos, but you would need a lot of prep time for the ground work.

FOX just decided to skip the entirety of Phase 1 and Phase 2 and the bulk of Phase 3 to jump right to Infinity War and Endgame (which they then smashed into a single film).

[Devonix]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Dark Phoenix could be done well. As the capstone of a multi-year/multi-film arc. You maybe wouldn't need to build it for a decade like the MCU did with Thanos, but you would need a lot of prep time for the ground work.

FOX just decided to skip the entirety of Phase 1 and Phase 2 and the bulk of Phase 3 to jump right to Infinity War and Endgame (which they then smashed into a single film).

There's also the fact that part of the Deal with Dark Phoenix was that Jean was retired. She'd stopped being a superhero and was living a normal life. She gets kidnapped and when they go to rescue her this crap happens.

What happens to Jean isn't her fault. So it's all tragic. And SHE's the one who decides enough is enough. She doesn't decide how Dark Phoenix starts, but she sure as hell decides how it ends. Not the Shiar who want to punish her as a monster, not the X-men who are trying to save their friend. She decides how she's going to die.

[Ramza00]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Dark Phoenix could be done well. As the capstone of a multi-year/multi-film arc. You maybe wouldn't need to build it for a decade like the MCU did with Thanos, but you would need a lot of prep time for the ground work.

FOX just decided to skip the entirety of Phase 1 and Phase 2 and the bulk of Phase 3 to jump right to Infinity War and Endgame (which they then smashed into a single film).

That was not on the table + them doing Dark Phoenix at the same time.

With the first class reboot the main cast did a 3 movie contract and Dark Phoenix is the 4 movie and thus the actors did not have to return. It was only money, good will, etc that caused the original cast to return.

Telling The Dark Phoenix story over several movies after Apocalypse was not in the cards due to these financial reasons.

Thus maybe the best goal was to tell a different X-Men story and not trying to rush Dark Phoenix. It is the Icarus phenomenon just accept Dark Phoenix being told on screen is not going to happen, and if it does happen it will be ugly. Yet telling other X-Men stories could be satisfying.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's not impossible. It would just require them to not spend the previous three movies going all over the place across decades of time with more characters than can be readily counted (and who thus get no development). If they'd run a sensible arc instead of X-Men's Greatest Hits, setting up DP would've been child's play. Instead, they made essentially three stand alone movies.

[Ramza00]

It's not impossible. It would just require them to not spend the previous three movies going all over the place across decades of time with more characters than can be readily counted (and who thus get no development). If they'd run a sensible arc instead of X-Men's Greatest Hits, setting up DP would've been child's play. Instead, they made essentially three stand alone movies.

Nods. But they didn't and the counterfactual of how to do it the MCU way did not exist at the time. Remember First Class was released prior to Avengers the first one, aka year 2011 vs year 2012.

Pretty much you can blame this on Bryan Singer for meandering with 2 of the 3 movies, somewhat well followed by kind of poorly.

While at the same time giving props to Kevin Feige and a dozen other people with the MCU for having a rough framework (and the contracts to make the framework possible) and then spontaneously creating good stuff on that framework and having each movie pivot into the next link of the chain.

My point here is to contrast these two different things for how the approach this is fundamentally different.