Dark Phoenix

[Talakeal]

But he teleports infront of the train in the same scene with no momentum problems.

[GloatingSwine]

Quite a lot of superhero powers gain and lose limits like that as the drama demands.

Nightcrawler is at least able to alter the direction of travel on return so he shouldn’t have any problems with momentum because he can fire himself upwards and teleport again when he has bled it off to gravity.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Basically what Harem does in Grrl Power.

[Mordar]

But he teleports infront of the train in the same scene with no momentum problems.

Quite a lot of superhero powers gain and lose limits like that as the drama demands.

Nightcrawler is at least able to alter the direction of travel on return so he shouldn’t have any problems with momentum because he can fire himself upwards and teleport again when he has bled it off to gravity.

...at least in the movies!

Which I think puts it back in the "Kurt didn't try to save the guy because the filmmakers wanted a Nightcrawler Rage! scene...?

- M

[Anteros]

But he teleports infront of the train in the same scene with no momentum problems.

Well, like I said I haven't seen the movie. I was just stating how his powers are supposed to work.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Powers=Plot is the formula I use for superhero media. It's about as ubiquitous as Speed=Plot in sci-fi.

[Chen]

Relative to the place he is going to appear, I imagine.

Thing is momentum is relative. Consider I have zero momentum with respect to the chair Im sitting on. But my momentum is huge with respect to say, the sun. Or even a similar chair that is not moving but on the other side of the planet if I take my momentum relative to some point not on the surface of the earth. Thats the problem with either conservation or non conservation of momentum when teleportation is involved. For example he teleports into a plane in X2 to save rogue and then back out. How would that have worked?

[Kitten Champion]

My understanding of Nightcrawler's powers is he's not teleporting, he's plane-shifting from one place on Marvel's Earth to a hellish dimension and back again at a different location with such rapidity that he can't really perceive the movement, like a needle moving through cloth on sewing machine.

So, I think there is an interim state between BAMFs where he can alter his momentum and how his body is positioned. Though I'm far from definite on that.

[Devonix]

My understanding of Nightcrawler's powers is he's not teleporting, he's plane-shifting from one place on Marvel's Earth to a hellish dimension and back again at a different location with such rapidity that he can't really perceive the movement, like a needle moving through cloth on sewing machine.

So, I think there is an interim state between BAMFs where he can alter his momentum and how his body is positioned. Though I'm far from definite on that.

You're right. The purpke smoke is the atmospherr from that other dimension leaking in when he teleports. He can also trap people and things there as well.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And occasionally let something from that dimension out. Because there are no mutants without complications to their powers (which is usually a plus in my books).

[weckar]

This movie quickly starts to make a ton more sense when you realize the slew of rewrites it went through.

Like, the whole train sequence was reshoots on the outside. Those absurdly spacious train cars? Originally space ship corridors.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by weckar
Like, the whole train sequence was reshoots on the outside. Those absurdly spacious train cars? Originally space ship corridors.

Interesting. Do you have a source on that?

Also, sad. As some national reviewers have noted, this movie retells Last Stand, but worse in just about every way, and on a piddly scale. At the very least they could have given us a secret lunar city, which is where Jean Grey (or a phoenix duplicate thereof) originally managed her own demise, right in front of Scott.

[Rodin]

Interesting. Do you have a source on that?

Also, sad. As some national reviewers have noted, this movie retells Last Stand, but worse in just about every way, and on a piddly scale. At the very least they could have given us a secret lunar city, which is where Jean Grey (or a phoenix duplicate thereof) originally managed her own demise, right in front of Scott.

A quick look on Google points to this article as the original source. A couple other articles have quotes from people involved with the production that confirm that the third act was moved from space to a train.

--

I wonder how many people had my reaction to the trailer, which was "What, again?" We saw the plot in Last Stand, and Last Stand was terrible. Why would we want to go see the same plot again?

I'm willing to bet that more than anything else is why the movie opened so poorly. They tied themselves to a very bad movie, and people stayed away.

[Lemmy]

I wonder how many people had my reaction to the trailer, which was "What, again?" We saw the plot in Last Stand, and Last Stand was terrible. Why would we want to go see the same plot again?

I'm willing to bet that more than anything else is why the movie opened so poorly. They tied themselves to a very bad movie, and people stayed away.

I don't know... Coming after "X-Men - Apocalypse" must also have weighed heavily in most people's mind. The only reason I even saw the movie is because a friend of mine can get very cheap tickets.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rodin
A quick look on Google points to this article as the original source.

All that article says is that it was moved from space to a train—there’s no mention of the train interiors having originally been starship corridors, as weckar claimed. That was the point I wanted a source on, because the interiors looked very much like trains, and nothing at all like starship corridors.

The article does mention that this was the director's first movie, which goes a way towards explaining why it was so timid.

[Devonix]

All that article says is that it was moved from space to a train—there’s no mention of the train interiors having originally been starship corridors, as weckar claimed. That was the point I wanted a source on, because the interiors looked very much like trains, and nothing at all like starship corridors.

The article does mention that this was the director's first movie, which goes a way towards explaining why it was so timid.

Well he did the screenplay for X-men the last stand. And the Screenplay for this one as well. So maybe the problem is him?

[Ramza00]

The article does mention that this was the director's first movie, which goes a way towards explaining why it was so timid.

Wait? They had a Director who has never been a Director before?

Googles....

OMG it is True.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1334526/?ref_=tt_ov_dr

😲😵😖😕

I am sorry I do not care if you been a producer for 2 dozen projects. Lots of them being in the X-Men First Class + Fox universe with also Deadpool, Fantastic Four remake, Legion etc. I do not care if you are tied to other production things such as Jumper, Elysium, Designated Survior etc.

And the Director also has some experience being a writer with a dozen credits some of which include writing X-Men: The Last Stand, Jumper, Sherlock Holmes, Days of Future Past, Fantastic Four (2015)...etc

Get some directing experience prior to directing a $200 million movie! Do some tv episodes, or an indie film, or a cheap horror movie. Learn the craft and gain some skills before doing a $200 million movie. You can do a $200 million movie, but practice is necessary for good results. God I am angry now. Production and Directing and Writing are different jobs entirely much like Flying an Airplane is different than Repairing an Airplane.

How many women have directed $200 million movies? The answer is 0! Only 9 women prior to 2019 have directed movies with a budget of $100 million or more! For example Captain Marvel budget was $150 million. Wonder Woman (2017) was also $150 million and at the time of Production only 3 woman Directors have crossed the $100 million threshold.

This world is messed up, and it is unfortunate that we choose to allow it to remain this messed up.

Well the director of Dark Phoenix Simon Kinberg says he is proud of his movie but he also blames himself for the bad box office results.

https://www.thewrap.com/simon-kinber...x-office-bomb/

[Narkis]

Well the director of Dark Phoenix Simon Kinberg says he is proud of his movie but he also blames himself for the bad box office results.

https://www.thewrap.com/simon-kinber...x-office-bomb/

Props for accepting responsibility instead of blaming an ungrateful audience like a few other recent high-profile cases.

[Ramza00]

Props for accepting responsibility instead of blaming an ungrateful audience like a few other recent high-profile cases.

Yes props for that. And his writting / production record is mix (and that is okay) some really good stuff and some really bad stuff.

But you should direct at least some smaller projects prior to doing a $200 million movie. TV episodes and Indie Films exist for a reason. You may not need much practice but at least get some of it before doing the HUGE thing. And even taking over as a pseudo director for Bryan Singer's X-Men: Apocalypse is not the same. (Singer was famous for no-showing that movie if Singer was not in the mood.)

[Kitten Champion]

I wonder how many people had my reaction to the trailer, which was "What, again?" We saw the plot in Last Stand, and Last Stand was terrible. Why would we want to go see the same plot again?

I'm willing to bet that more than anything else is why the movie opened so poorly. They tied themselves to a very bad movie, and people stayed away.

I don't know... Coming after "X-Men - Apocalypse" must also have weighed heavily in most people's mind. The only reason I even saw the movie is because a friend of mine can get very cheap tickets.

It's some of both. When a movie in a franchise is bad it's usually the next entry which gets hit harder financially speaking, even in the cases where its sequel is technically better. Apocalypse killed the struggling main-series X-Men movies' momentum after Days of Future Past had renewed it significantly.

Speaking just for myself, whatever other faults it had, the worst one was that Apocalypse didn't leave me wanting to follow the new cast despite that should largely have been the point. Its version of these characters were given bare-bones development at best and were largely forgettable, not because of the actors involved - they did fine with the material given to them, and I really like its Storm - but they simply didn't get much to do to where they were anything more than merely recognizable as the characters they were supposed to be rather than providing anything interesting to distinguish themselves. The movie was simply too muddled with too much going on and not enough of it good to have those character moments that made you care about them.

Which - putting aside The Last Stand that was drowned in plot-lines - made me very skeptical that they could pull off a story arc like Dark Phoenix which was built on years of comic readers' familiarity with these characters even if they just focused on it this time. To suddenly have the original team heroine who was the centre of these young adult soap-opera story-lines and hitherto a picture of chaste virtue dressing like a dominatrix and partying with a hedonistic cult all eventually culminating in her getting ultimate power and burning literal worlds... that was a thing which vaulted expectations and naturally led to a lot of internal conflicts among the rest of the X-Men which was the emotional heart of the story and why people remember it fondly.

Apocalypse did the further disservice of making much of this new Jean's focus be on foreshadowing her becoming the Phoenix, talking about how the other Mutants fear her for her powers and how she feels all ostracized and moody. Going all the way as to make her manifesting Phoenix powers into the movie's climax with her pulling a dues ex machina and disintegrating the over-powered main villain himself while spouting bird-shaped flames - which apparently they've ret-conned in Dark Phoenix to fit the cosmic death bird original concept, but whatever - essentially giving her negligible screen time to be just be Jean Grey as they did even in the original trilogy. Dark Phoenix needed at least one more movie between it and Apocalypse to renew my interest, for them to have the time to genuinely re-establish these characters and their relationships with one another.

Then - on a meta-level - we knew that this was almost certainly going to be the last entry into the X-Men franchise, that the writer/director/producer was the man responsible for the original train-wreck of Last Stand, that it was delayed numerous times, and with this just coming off of the most successful Superhero movie ever with Endgame for comparison It was engulfed in pretty bleak vortex of negative hype. The reviews did nothing to dissuade audiences that they couldn't simply write this off and wait a few years for a MCU reboot, or, ya'know, rent it I guess.

[Ramza00]

Then - on a meta-level - we knew that this was almost certainly going to be the last entry into the X-Men franchise, that the writer/director/producer was the man responsible for the original train-wreck of Last Stand, that it was delayed numerous times, and with this just coming off of the most successful Superhero movie ever with Endgame for comparison It was engulfed in pretty bleak vortex of negative hype. The reviews did nothing to dissuade audiences that they couldn't simply write this off and wait a few years for a MCU reboot, or, ya'know, rent it I guess.

We know "now" that this was going to be the last X-Men movie, but several post Dark Phoenix things were in production. This is not a comprehensive list but the Director of Dark Phoenix was also producing these movies.

The New Mutants (2020, it appears to be done and has a release date and it is now wondering if Disney is going to cancel it or not.)
Gambit (just recently announced to be abandoned in the last month.)
Untitled Franklin Richards Spin-Off
X-Force
Deadpool 3

So that means at least 4 movies were thought to occur after in the Marvel X-Men universe, and one Fantastic Four thingee.

[Kitten Champion]

We know "now" that this was going to be the last X-Men movie, but several post Dark Phoenix things were in production. This is not a comprehensive list but the Director of Dark Phoenix was also producing these movies.

The New Mutants (2020, it appears to be done and has a release date and it is now wondering if Disney is going to cancel it or not.)
Gambit (just recently announced to be abandoned in the last month.)
Untitled Franklin Richards Spin-Off
X-Force
Deadpool 3

So that means at least 4 movies were thought to occur after in the Marvel X-Men universe, and one Fantastic Four thingee.

No one really believed those were going to be things post-Disney merger, other than The New Mutants which has very good odds of ending up on Hulu or Disney+ and probably Deadpool because he can go wherever and there's clearly still money in him. Besides that, they're not main-series X-Men movies, which push the same-ish continuity from all the way back to when this started in the 90's.

Anyways, let's point to these for what they likely were, an attempt by then Fox to shore up their stockholder's concerns by seemingly having a lot of potential projects on the go within the most profitable space in contemporary motion pictures. Sony has done the same thing with their Venom-universe, some really stupid movie concepts with characters I've never heard of. Announce something, maybe at Comic-Con or in some quiet press release or "report", then maybe get a screen-writer attached, and that's about it.

The potential audience of Dark Phoenix doesn't care that there's some vague notion of an untitled Franklin Richard spin-off movie created by a studio which doesn't really exist anymore that didn't have a release date, cast, or anything beyond a possible screen writer attached. If they know who Franklin Richards is, or how he could exists within the Fan4stic continuity they don't give a damn about where they didn't even have Reed in Sue in an actual romantic relationship. Movies are vaporware until they start production.

[Reddish Mage]

We know "now" that this was going to be the last X-Men movie, but several post Dark Phoenix things were in production. This is not a comprehensive list but the Director of Dark Phoenix was also producing these movies.

The New Mutants (2020, it appears to be done and has a release date and it is now wondering if Disney is going to cancel it or not.)
Gambit (just recently announced to be abandoned in the last month.)
Untitled Franklin Richards Spin-Off
X-Force
Deadpool 3

So that means at least 4 movies were thought to occur after in the Marvel X-Men universe, and one Fantastic Four thingee.

I doubt The New Mutants is being canceled, its already to far ahead having been produced. The idea of giving it Disney Plus actually sounds like more work to promote somebody else's project, if they actually want to make money with this movie (I bet the movie heavily promised sequels too). Disney has a whole in its schedule to fill since James Gunn left (I recall that also pushes back other productions since apparently this GotG3 movie is really vital for setting up the next big story arc).

Disney said that Deadpool can continue in its own universe, but I have a feeling "can" doesn't mean "will." On the other hand, its very popular, had two movies already and no noticeable negative backlash. I'd like to think its mid-production and will continue on schedule. I'm not sure if they will want to tone down X-Force. I heard Fox wanted X-Force to be PG-13, also that it cancelled the movie in anticipation of the merger (but that hasn't been confirmed). I understand the PG-13 Deadpool did pretty good.

No idea on what they'll do to these things. It sounds executive interference is a constant with Deadpool from the get-go, with all the players going through with these movies reluctantly and with a lot of internal fussing between the studio and Deadpool creators.

R-rated titles are an assault to marketings worldview that wider demographic exposure equals more $$$. The idea that Deadpool succeeds precisely because there is a huge adult demand for this sort of content not being catered to...that just doesn't seem to be pleasing to the studio. I think the people that market the movies have this philosophic conception that Marvel, as a "brand", means something incompatible with an R rating, and that its a prime case of "drift" that creates "brand confusion" that leads to a brand losing its value.

In other words, X-Force and Deadpool 3 may or may not happen, but its going to be pretty hard for Disney/Fox to just let it be left alone to do its own thing.

There's no way they are going forward with Franklin Richards. Its an obscure guy in the first place, to be introduced out of context. I don't know where in production it is, but Disney (and studios in general) is not afraid to pull the plug on things to get in line

[Rogar Demonblud]

New Mutants is 'done', but apparently needs a batch of reshoots which will be problematic since the cast has aged a bit since the primary photography was done over two years ago (at least one of the supporting actors has had a six-inch growth spurt, for example).

Gambit, X-Force and Franklin were really never more than names on a chalkboard. If memory serves, the middle one was the only one where they asked a scriptwriter for a pitch.

Deadpool 3 is in limbo, because Disney has announced they want to bring him into the MCU (duh, each of the films is about $50 million ahead of the next runner up), but the MCU is resolutely PG-13 and the attempt at a PG-13 version of DP2 (allegedly, foisted on FOX by Disney as part of the negotiations) was...well, disappointing in terms of box office returns (the R versions would be 13 and 12 respectively on the MCU list).

Heck, the two Deadpool movies together grossed more than the three Wolverine movie did.

Of course, part of the issue is that nobody outside the industry actually knows what goes into the ratings labels. Disney has enough pull they could probably declare Deadpool PG-13 and nobody could really fight it.

[The Glyphstone]

You're only allowed a single F-bomb in a PG-13 movie. That's the only hard dividing line I know of aside from stuff involving explicit/sexual content. And it's probably got at least one exception anyways.

EDIT: It's got at least 10-15 notable exceptions, so never mind. Even that's not a guarantee anymore.

[Mordar]

I wonder how many people had my reaction to the trailer, which was "What, again?" We saw the plot in Last Stand, and Last Stand was terrible. Why would we want to go see the same plot again?

I'm willing to bet that more than anything else is why the movie opened so poorly. They tied themselves to a very bad movie, and people stayed away.

Because the plot (or at least the source plot) not only isn't bad...it's really good. Just like we've seen bad versions of (insert any of a number of Shakespeare stories here, for instance) that does't mean there isn't room for a good version. No, the Phoenix Saga isn't Shakespeare, but it is pretty highly valued for a ongoing comic storyline. As such, it might have had a chance.

But since they hadn't properly built Scott and Jean, hadn't properly prepared us for the Phoenix Saga, it had no shot. You can't suddenly have Wolverine and then Mystique as the faces of the franchise (because their actors are currently popular) and then tell a story that relies very heavily on investment in Scott and Jean as not only romantic leads but pillars of the team and expect it to have anywhere near the same impact.

The very lukewarm reception for the end of GoT and the relative dissatisfaction with Sophie Turner as Sansa (Personal note: I thought she did fine as Sansa, for the most part) meant it had zero star power, so I think that was an additional drag on opening weekend (along with Apocalypse hangover and X3 as you mention).

- M

[Rogar Demonblud]

Constantly rescheduling the release didn't help, and setting it to come after Disney-Marvel releases Captain Marvel and Avengers Endgame to suck all the air from the room wasn't smart either.

[Devonix]

Because the plot (or at least the source plot) not only isn't bad...it's really good. Just like we've seen bad versions of (insert any of a number of Shakespeare stories here, for instance) that does't mean there isn't room for a good version. No, the Phoenix Saga isn't Shakespeare, but it is pretty highly valued for a ongoing comic storyline. As such, it might have had a chance.

But since they hadn't properly built Scott and Jean, hadn't properly prepared us for the Phoenix Saga, it had no shot. You can't suddenly have Wolverine and then Mystique as the faces of the franchise (because their actors are currently popular) and then tell a story that relies very heavily on investment in Scott and Jean as not only romantic leads but pillars of the team and expect it to have anywhere near the same impact.

The very lukewarm reception for the end of GoT and the relative dissatisfaction with Sophie Turner as Sansa (Personal note: I thought she did fine as Sansa, for the most part) meant it had zero star power, so I think that was an additional drag on opening weekend (along with Apocalypse hangover and X3 as you mention).

- M

Dark Phoenix is a great comic book story, but the films keep missing what made it special. The specialness had nothing to do with Space stuff, and everything to do with Jean being a loveable but boring character, who is given power that corrupts her, It's the classic Good girl goes bad story. Complete with sexual awakening. Taking out that stuff is what really hurts the story.

[Mordar]

Dark Phoenix is a great comic book story, but the films keep missing what made it special. The specialness had nothing to do with Space stuff, and everything to do with Jean being a loveable but boring character, who is given power that corrupts her, It's the classic Good girl goes bad story. Complete with sexual awakening. Taking out that stuff is what really hurts the story.

...and don't forget the emotional impact of the resolution. Which is only emotional if we care about Scott and Jean. And Jean must make the choice too. No matter how it appears to no longer be palatable.

- M

[GloatingSwine]

Dark Phoenix is a great comic book story, but the films keep missing what made it special. The specialness had nothing to do with Space stuff, and everything to do with Jean being a loveable but boring character, who is given power that corrupts her, It's the classic Good girl goes bad story. Complete with sexual awakening. Taking out that stuff is what really hurts the story.

That, I think, is why it can’t be filmed.

Because the way to tell that story in a movie is closely inside the head of the character it’s happening to. Perfect Blue and Black Swan show how it works.

The emotional core of the story gets communicated by us living it with the character. It would have to be as close to Jean as Logan was to its protagonist. With as spare a presentation for everyone else.

But the Dark Phoenix story doesn’t adapt to that because it’s intended to sit in a series full of other characters and viewpoints.

So an adaptation that carried the core of Jean’s story would upset people who wanted everyone else.