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2019-06-10, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Howdy folks,
Question about invisibility: RAW states that invisibility ends when the invisible target attacks or casts a spell. A beholder eye ray isn't listed as a spell-like ability and isn't a ranged attack. Does it cancel invisibility?D20 Modern Complete HTML SRD
(Contains D20 Modern (core), Urban Arcana, d20 Future and d20 Modern Menace Manual -> In a fun format)
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2019-06-10, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-06-10, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
It's not an attack action, because it doesn't involve an attack roll.
RAW, I don't think it would break invisibility, but I would houserule that it does, because while the eye rays aren't actually spells, they're very similar to them.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2019-06-10, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Agree with Chronos. RAW, the answer is no, but I would expect many DMs to overrule that. When they wrote the spell, I don't think they accounted for uses of it on every NPC creature imaginable.
If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?
In real estate, they say it's all about location, location, location. In D&D I say it's about action economy, action economy, action economy.
Crystal Mage -- a homebrewed arcane tradition
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2019-06-10, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
RAW using eye rays does not count as attacks or spells, since they aren’t spells and require saves, not to-hit rolls.
This has been confirmed in official WotC products where Beholders have access to invisibility.
In those products, the authors acknowledge that the tactic is cheesy as hell, but the beholder in question is not actually part of the adventure objectives, the PCs are told it is incredibly dangerous, and if they want to fight it, play it as evil as possible.
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2019-06-10, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Misread Ignore!
Last edited by OzDragon; 2019-06-10 at 08:36 AM.
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2019-06-10, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Last edited by OzDragon; 2019-06-10 at 08:41 AM.
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2019-06-10, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
And you're free to rule otherwise, but by the rules an attack must involve an attack roll to be considered as such. This is how we've come to accept the strange conclusion that while Magic Missile is an offensive spell being cast that damages the target, it does not count as making an attack against them.
RAW is a strange beast and you're encouraged openly by the developers to use your own judgements where the written rules don't work for your table.
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2019-06-10, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
I would advise against talking about "attack actions".
There are several actions, bonus actions, and reactions, that involve making an attack, but only one of these actions is called Attack.
And yeah, an attack involves an attack roll.
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2019-06-10, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2019-06-10, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
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2019-06-10, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
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2019-06-10, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
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2019-06-10, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Changing how something works just because you think it’s unbalanced isn’t a great solution.
There is no logical reason why a Cloak of Invisibility functions as a permanent Greater Invisibility while a Ring of Invisibility only provides permanent regular Invisibility, but that’s the way the game works. Maybe the game designers like Harry Potter better than Lord of the Rings. Do you change how those two magic items work in your campaign? Is allowing them to work differently RAW obsession?
If the designers intended Invisibility not to have that loophole, they could have updated it at the same time they updated Sanctuary.
If it offends your sense of justice, don’t allow it. Given that the two most obvious abusers of non-attack, non-spell hostile actions are Beholders and Spellcasting Dragons, it doesn’t seem like a major issue. It is literally the difference between a 2nd and 4th level spell on a CR 13+ creature.Last edited by Zuras; 2019-06-10 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Fix unclear wording
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2019-06-10, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Yes, "at your table". Several of us who said that it's not an attack by RAW have agreed that many DMs would houserule that it becomes visible. No one is saying it's a wrong or bad ruling. When someone asks a question about the RAW, we give them an answer by the RAW.
But it's important to make a distinction between what's an attack or not. "Doing something bad" to someone is not necessarily an attack and the mechanical distinction is there for good reason. Mirror Image doesn't protect you from save-based spells or effects, for instance; only attacks. It's not intended to be that powerful.If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?
In real estate, they say it's all about location, location, location. In D&D I say it's about action economy, action economy, action economy.
Crystal Mage -- a homebrewed arcane tradition
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2019-06-10, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
It's not just making a 2nd level spell act like a 4th level spell. If you can do combat stuff without breaking it, Invisibility is much better than Improved Invisibility, because of the longer duration.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2019-06-10, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2018
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2019-06-10, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Changing how something works because you think it's stupid and illogical, however, is.
There is no logical reason why a Cloak of Invisibility functions as a permanent Greater Invisibility while a Ring of Invisibility only provides permanent regular Invisibility, but that’s the way the game works. Maybe the game designers like Harry Potter better than Lord of the Rings. Do you change how those two magic items work in your campaign? Is allowing them to work differently RAW obsession?
If the designers intended Invisibility not to have that loophole, they could have updated it at the same time they updated Sanctuary.
If it offends your sense of justice, don’t allow it. Given that the two most obvious abusers of non-attack, non-spell hostile actions are Beholders and Spellcasting Dragons, it doesn’t seem like a major issue. It is literally the difference between a 2nd and 4th level spell on a CR 13+ creature.
It's great (by RAW) for Enchanters, especially high-AC Cleric/Enchanters, for just exactly that reason. You can even still do Instinctive Charm.
Remember that RAW is a qualifier, not a compliment. It means "don't necessarily expect this to work in a real game."Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-06-10 at 04:20 PM.
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2019-06-10, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-06-10, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Let's go to actual dev answers instead of HIWPI.
When a monk uses Empty Body, does the invisibility remain in effect after the monk attacks? Yes. The invisibility of the monk’s Empty Body isn’t ended by the monk attacking.
Does using a bonus action break invisibility from a warlock’s One with Shadows invocation? Taking a bonus action breaks the invisibility of a warlock’s One with Shadows. A bonus action is an action.
If I’m invisible and I become visible when I shoot an arrow at a target, does hiding again require an action? Without a special ability, hiding in combat requires the Hide action.
Take from that what you will. Seems to be that as long as the conditions aren't stated or met that you don't break invisibility. Specific wording matters.Last edited by Kyutaru; 2019-06-10 at 04:31 PM.
Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.
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2019-06-11, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-06-11, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
You might not see the duration run out for a monster, but duration will still make a difference on when they're likely to cast it. Buffs are most effective when cast before combat starts. It's a lot easier for an NPC to say "I'm likely to meet enemies at some point in the next hour" than to say "I'm likely to meet enemies at some point in the next minute".
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2019-06-11, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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2019-06-11, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
Yes, but those (in the fashion of D&D) are specific exceptions. If they didn't say they were attacks, they wouldn't be. So you cannot use those to reason to anything else.
Exception based games require an explicit statement of exception to basic rules. And the basic rules require an attack roll for an attack. Changing that globally breaks...lots of stuff. Many many features and spells only react/trigger on attacks. Now they trigger on anything that might be considered a hostile action. That's a huge change.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2019-06-11, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
So by RAW, the following do not break invisibility, right?
- Blowing a horn to call reinforcements
- Blowing a horn of blasting to smite your foes
- Blowing a horn of blasting harmlessly into the air to call reinforcements
Those are all an "Action", not an "Attack (action)" (an attack action being, by RAW, a melee or ranged attack).
What about wands? A Wand of Binding lets you cast certain spells on command, or gain advantage on a roll. I assume you'd only pop out of invisibility if you use the Spells action and not the Assisted Escape action?
Also if it's house ruled that ability that triggers a save count as an attack, then yeah, that would cover stuff like beholder eye rays.D20 Modern Complete HTML SRD
(Contains D20 Modern (core), Urban Arcana, d20 Future and d20 Modern Menace Manual -> In a fun format)
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2019-06-11, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-06-11, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a Beholder eye ray break its Invisibility?
I think it's fine. I mean, why should the invisibility wear off if you attack anyway? It's just how the spell works. So if some things break it and some don't, who cares.