The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I can't wait to see what you come up with.



    You are certainly welcome. Best of luck to you.

    What do you think the next round will be? thrall to eltab?
    Likewise!

    Part of me feels like it’s gonna be something shockingly powerful. Dweomerkeeper or something. Helio’s been putting in “good” ingredients on the 10s, after all. (If that’s true, it’s going to be surprisingly difficult.)
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 21, and you're welcome to join even if you've never tried before!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    What do you think the next round will be? thrall to eltab?
    I think it'll be a round 100 special rather than an October Haloween round. Demonologist or Mortal Hunter would be cool though.

    I kind of think it'll be Spinemeld Warrior. All the pomp and circumstance of its various titles seems appropriate for round 100 and Helio's sendoff as chair.

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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    My money's on Dragon Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Cracking the ELH....whoa there. I was joking about soulborn I swear! I do not want to fill out an epic level table and all that....mess. And I have successfully played epic as a non caster.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Come onnnnn Dragonkith!
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Why not Survivor?
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Why not Survivor?
    Oof yeah, that one is terrible too. It kinda got done in the appetizer challenge though, when they did a prc round and 4 people figured out that survivor was 1 of 2 prc's that you could finish in e6.

    I think that round ended up getting split between survivors and other classes?
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by DeTess View Post
    Oof yeah, that one is terrible too. It kinda got done in the appetizer challenge though, when they did a prc round and 4 people figured out that survivor was 1 of 2 prc's that you could finish in e6.

    I think that round ended up getting split between survivors and other classes?
    Four entries out of ten were Survivor, going Commoner 1/Survivor 5, but the winning three used other builds - the goal wasn't to use all the levels of a class, but to use at least two and as many as you could.

    That said, first and third place DID use all three levels of three level PrCs (Squire of Legend and Stoneblessed, respectively). I think you could also use Jaunter, if you make a human, take Fighter 1 and multiclass into something with Knowledge Planes at 2nd level, then go into Jaunter for four levels to finish the six. Not the strongest build, but it is an option that uses a whole prestige class in E6.

    Still have a gut feeling that Blackguard could be our Centennial challenge, but guess we'll see.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessKng View Post
    Four entries out of ten were Survivor, going Commoner 1/Survivor 5, but the winning three used other builds - the goal wasn't to use all the levels of a class, but to use at least two and as many as you could.

    That said, first and third place DID use all three levels of three level PrCs (Squire of Legend and Stoneblessed, respectively). I think you could also use Jaunter, if you make a human, take Fighter 1 and multiclass into something with Knowledge Planes at 2nd level, then go into Jaunter for four levels to finish the six. Not the strongest build, but it is an option that uses a whole prestige class in E6.

    Still have a gut feeling that Blackguard could be our Centennial challenge, but guess we'll see.
    I was really surprised in that E6 round that no one took a fallen paladin who'd cashed in all of their paladin levels for blackguard. That's the only way I know of (with the ruleset in place) to get more than 5 levels in a PrC in E6.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 21, and you're welcome to join even if you've never tried before!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I was really surprised in that E6 round that no one took a fallen paladin who'd cashed in all of their paladin levels for blackguard. That's the only way I know of (with the ruleset in place) to get more than 5 levels in a PrC in E6.
    I think you need at least 10 levels in Paladin to have that as an option. Lemme double check... at least 11 levels for the Dark Gods' Favor benefit, which lets you exchange levels of Paladin for levels of Blackguard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
    Optimization Trophies

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I think you need at least 10 levels in Paladin to have that as an option. Lemme double check... at least 11 levels for the Dark Gods' Favor benefit, which lets you exchange levels of Paladin for levels of Blackguard.
    that's probably the reason no one did it.

    are you all right with us doing the reveal and starting the long-awaited round 100?
    Last edited by Venger; 2019-10-05 at 04:06 PM.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    I have some things I'd like to have a quick discussion that doesn't need to hold up the next competition, but can't be done until scores are revealed
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
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    I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    I don't know if this is the appropriate place to ask this, but out of interest:

    What's the rationale for banning fractional BAB in IC? Is there a specific reason it's not viewed as kosher?

    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    I don't know if this is the appropriate place to ask this, but out of interest:

    What's the rationale for banning fractional BAB in IC? Is there a specific reason it's not viewed as kosher?
    by all means it's an appropriate place.

    it's banned the same reason any variant rule system (spell points, item familiar, etc.) because let's say I use fractional ba in my build and you don't, and everything else is identical. well, i've basically gotten free goodies for no reason that you do not and will get marked higher in power. it creates an unequal playing field, so we are all held to using the same rules.

    can we have the reveal now? I'm excited to see what's in store for us for the next round.
    Last edited by Venger; 2019-10-09 at 10:14 AM.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Unlike item familiars, however, it has no opportunity cost, and unlike spell points or similar variants it has no potential to make a certain build any worse than it is, so it doesn't impact parity so much as expand the range of options.

    I'm not arguing with your answer, just clarifying why I guessed it was because the competition either disliked the rule from a balance perspective or disliked specific build types that benefited from it. If either is the case I'd still be interested to know about it.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-10-09 at 10:28 AM.

    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Unlike item familiars, however, it has no opportunity cost, and unlike spell points or similar variants it has no potential to make a certain build any worse than it is. I'm not arguing with your answer, just clarifying why I guessed it was because the competition either disliked the rule from a balance perspective or disliked specific build types that benefited from it. If either is the case I'd still be interested to know about it.
    Like I said, it's because it would lead to some builds using it while some did not and it would be hard to evaluate them against each other.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Unlike item familiars, however, it has no opportunity cost, and unlike spell points or similar variants it has no potential to make a certain build any worse than it is, so it doesn't impact parity so much as expand the range of options.

    I'm not arguing with your answer, just clarifying why I guessed it was because the competition either disliked the rule from a balance perspective or disliked specific build types that benefited from it. If either is the case I'd still be interested to know about it.
    There is another reason.

    The guidelines try to put contestants into character creation space that allows their characters to be picked up by strangers and used in real play in real life. Reliance on too many variant rules for the competition metagame destroys this utility. You see this demonstrated in many judges approaches as well. Here are some judging criticisms that we see and expect

    *Too many sources! It took you 26 books to make this character! No one does that
    *Over-reliance on items or one specific item: Not all games have magicmarts
    *Although RAW legal, it will never fly at a real table
    * Too much multiclassing!

    Here's a contrapositive:

    *no-one is penalized for ignoring favored class rules because most tables don't actually follow this rule in real play

    So the ability to lift an iron chef entry has this expectation that if a GM allows all first party gaming material, any iron chef build will be a viable pre-generated character for you to use in real play. Some of us push this envelope, using weird obscure web articles, but they get docked by judges (for cheese) back down because of this loss of generic table utility.

    --

    Further, banning fractional stuff still allows you to use these builds if your table allows fractional stuff, your character will just be even better than the original chef made it. It is still plug and play.

    The opposite isn't true: building a character with fractional stuff will likely lead to character design that cannot be used at non-fractional tables. And thus, it makes sense to ban it.

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    It also makes qualification for anything requiring a BaB easier for better or worse, and rewards random dips more. If I dip in 4 half bab classes I get 2 BaB compared to getting 0 normally. That can be a substantial increase in power or ease of entry, and a more restrictive system leads to more creativity. My 2 copper.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    My finals for the quarter just finished. I have roughly a week with just my day job to worry about, though I’ll have homework next weekend.

    The sooner the new round is posted, the more likely it is that I can participate without making choices I’ll later regret. And I really want to join round 100, so I’m gonna be selfish here: can we please move on? Like, immediately?
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 21, and you're welcome to join even if you've never tried before!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    My finals for the quarter just finished. I have roughly a week with just my day job to worry about, though I’ll have homework next weekend.

    The sooner the new round is posted, the more likely it is that I can participate without making choices I’ll later regret. And I really want to join round 100, so I’m gonna be selfish here: can we please move on? Like, immediately?
    Yeah, I'll second that.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    I'm for it.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    I think we've waited long enough for any other judges to have a window to give input, so let's get the 100th show rolling!
    Last edited by DeTess; 2019-10-13 at 12:25 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Just for fun, here's the rubric I was using while ever-so-slowly working my way through the entries.

    Spoiler: Criteria
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    All scores start at 3 except for Elegance, which starts at 5. I’m branching out from my usual strategy of just going with my gut for the final score in each category (after analyzing all the factors in detail); this time I’m going to try to assign hard values to all my judgments. Maybe I’ll like it, maybe I won’t.

    Originality:
    I’m actually a relative newb at character optimization. As such, for the most part I’m not going to be able to recognize the relative originality or lack thereof as far as mechanics outside of my spheres of knowledge. Rather than fall into the trap of penalizing only builds that fall into those spheres of knowledge, Originality will be split in to a few parts to deemphasize mechanical tricks.
    –The fluff: story, characterization, tone. (+0 to +1)
    –Race: what can I say, these contests are inundated with humans and dragonborn. I’d like to reward variety beyond that. (–0.5 to +0.5)
    –Other mechanics: (up to ±0.25 each)

    Power:
    –Levels 1-5 (–0.5 to +0.5)
    –Levels 6-10 (–0.5 to +0.5)
    –Levels 11-15 (–0.5 to +0.5)
    –Levels 16-20 (–0.5 to +0.5)
    –Overall versatility: can a combat character contribute outside of combat and vice versa? This is also taken into account in the points for each level bracket. (–0.5 to +0.5)

    Elegance:
    –Overall ‘flow’ of the progression: here’s another place where fluff can help you out. If your fluff makes the progression feel more natural (or at least more justifiable) this penalty will be reduced or even waived. (up to –1)
    –Mechanical flaws (up to –1 each)
    –Table errors and similar, when what it’s supposed to be is still clear. (–0.1 each)

    Use of the Secret Ingredient:
    Gonna come back to this one. Here are my rough thoughts.
    –Mechanical synergy/importance to the build (–0.5 to +1.5)
    –Each level taken (+0.1)
    –Each level not taken (–0.1)
    Note that sufficiently taking advantage of the classes features can make up the points for missing levels. Note also that there is no penalty for getting creative with the flavor/feel of the class; you won’t be docked because (for instance) Life-Eaters are described as assassins and you’ve used it on a frontline warrior or a diplomat.


    While I'm fairly happy with the rubric itself, trying to implement it has convinced me that such a strict system is not for me, and future attempts at judging will return to my "thorough analysis of everything I found worth mentioning, but the final score in each category is determined by going with my gut" strategy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
    Optimization Trophies

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Thanks, PoeticallyPsyco. Maybe you can take a crack at judging in round 100.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Apologies for delay, brain is being unhelpful. Will post reveal when I wrestle it into submission.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    We appreciate you, Heliomance!
    Real life comes before internet competitions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Thanks for the update. Hope you feel better.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
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    Iron Chef Deep Freeze: Turning Tables on Old Dishes

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Is there any way we can help? Appreciate all that you do!
    Current project:
    Optimization Showcase in the Playground

    Former projects:
    Shadowcaster Handbook
    Archer Build Compendium

    Iron Chef Awards!
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    GOLD
    IC LXXVI: Talos
    IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
    IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
    IC XLV: Dead Mists
    IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
    IC XXXIX: AM-1468
    IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
    IC XXX: Jal Filius

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    Is there any way we can help? Appreciate all that you do!
    Would it be helpful if we revealed ourselves? There is already a chart on the last page. I'd be more than happy to edit the chefs in and post it so you can put up thread 100.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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    Iron Chef Deep Freeze: Turning Tables on Old Dishes

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