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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAY MORE View Post
    I'm having trouble roleplaying a character with below average INT (8) in what has become an intrigue-heavy campaign. I can be rude, impolite, rush and thick-headed like the dumb fighter I'm supposed to be, but I find really difficult to not contribute on investigations, puzzles, riddles, and diplomatic situations. Actually, everytime I try to say something above basic affirmations like "I'm hungry/tired/pissed", NPCs react like I'm babbling something incomprehensibile. I know, I'm doing wrong by trying to "act smart", because it's patently off-character... but If I stay by my side, and let the supposedly "smart PCs" do the deed, I feel like a castaway from most of the RPG pillar. Any advice? It's right to step back to the bookworms, and keep my (off character) deductions for myself ?
    D&D 5e isn't a digital computer game. The mental stats are squishier than the physical stats, and for a good reason.

    We Are Playing A Game using our imaginations, which is an exercise of our mind.

    I strongly suggest that you assess the numerical scores as "informing" how you'll role play rather than "dictating" how you role play.

    In my first RL career, a few of the "not so bright" folks who worked for me still had good suggestions and ideas sometimes. This lower than average INT is not an on/off switch. It means that flashes of brilliance come less often, not never.

    Conversely, some of the sharpest minds I have ever run into have now and again made dumb mistakes. If their INT was the equivalent of 16, so what? They don't never make a dumb mistake, just rarely.

    Then again, you can ignore my advice and keep making yourself miserable.

    I've run into this before at more than one table. I have to remind players that the line between the character and the player is blurry, not hard and concrete, and that anyone can come up with a bright idea now and again.

    The Game and its mechanics is to serve us as we have fun. We are not to serve the game's mechanics.

    Your choice: are you going to let a number on a piece of paper make you sad?
    Yes or no.

    PS: what Sporeegg said here. +1.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-06-11 at 03:32 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    We hit a disconnect when comparing physical stats like str to metal ones like int. Str have nice neatish rules when comparing stats like if a bear has 16 str and so does the player you are as strong as the bear. Then we have grapple/shoves rules.
    Intelligent doesn't have this. To bad we don't have a Sherlock Holmes int based slow down. An action to quickly process all sensual info
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    We hit a disconnect when comparing physical stats like str to metal ones like int. Str have nice neatish rules when comparing stats like if a bear has 16 str and so does the player you are as strong as the bear. Then we have grapple/shoves rules.
    Intelligent doesn't have this. To bad we don't have a Sherlock Holmes int based slow down. An action to quickly process all sensual info
    Heck, it's difficult enough to parse Charisma vs. Wisdom vs. Intelligence.

    Talking to people is Charisma. Reading someone's emotions is Insight. Knowing Languages is generally Intelligence (as per the Linguist feat).

    Common Sense is Wisdom, but remembering things is Intelligence.


    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    -----------------------------
    I've just divided it into:

    Wisdom = Perception (As in, gathering information through your senses)
    Intelligence = Processing (As in, understanding information or predetermined clues)
    Charisma = Convincing (As in, having someone understand the information you're trying to convey).

    So people with higher Wisdom might be more observant, but they aren't inherently "Wiser". He sees a lot, but rarely has the answers. The answers he does have (that is, from Insight or Animal Handling) come mostly from comparing the target vs. himself (that is, he understands facial expressions and hints, because he understands his own expressions).

    In fact, a "Wise" person would more likely have a combination of Intelligence and Charisma, being able to understand anything asked of them and being able to talk to the common folk into understanding themselves. Wisdom will find you a trap, but Intelligence will tell you what that trap does or what areas are likely to be trapped.

    It's the only way I've considered them all that makes sense to me.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-11 at 05:09 PM.
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    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Heck, it's difficult enough to parse Charisma vs. Wisdom vs. Intelligence.

    Talking to people is Charisma. Reading someone's emotions is Insight. Knowing Languages is generally Intelligence (as per the Linguist feat).

    Common Sense is Wisdom, but remembering things is Intelligence.


    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    -----------------------------
    I've just divided it into:

    Wisdom = Perception (As in, gathering information through your senses)
    Intelligence = Processing (As in, understanding information or predetermined clues)
    Charisma = Convincing (As in, having someone understand the information you're trying to convey).

    So people with higher Wisdom might be more observant, but they aren't inherently "Wiser".

    In fact, a "Wise" person would more likely have a combination of Intelligence and Charisma, being able to understand anything asked of them and being able to talk to the common folk into understanding themselves. Wisdom will find you a trap, but Intelligence will tell you what that trap does or what areas are likely to be trapped.

    It's the only way I've considered them all that makes sense to me.
    The wise Sage surely needs to have a high Wisdom, for he has to understand what the underlying reason for the question is, even when the person asking may not know, in the 5e system, that would be an Insight check.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    In fact, a "Wise" person would more likely have a combination of Intelligence and Charisma, being able to understand anything asked of them and being able to talk to the common folk into understanding themselves. Wisdom will find you a trap, but Intelligence will tell you what that trap does or what areas are likely to be trapped.

    It's the only way I've considered them all that makes sense to me.
    With age comes Wisdom while the young are gifted by supercomputer brains. After age 25, the processing speed falls off while more actual understanding of what it means takes place. So even though the elderly may lack the Intelligence of the college students, they possess a much deeper Wisdom than the foolish youth do. This is reflected in the game through aging attribute changes.
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Mark Hall's Avatar

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Heck, it's difficult enough to parse Charisma vs. Wisdom vs. Intelligence.
    My usual version is

    Charisma = Strength
    Intelligence = Dexterity
    Wisdom = Constitution.

    Charisma is your ability to make the world bend. Wisdom is your ability to resist the influence of the world. Intelligence is your ability to manipulate pieces of the world.

    Someone with very little intelligence likely manipulates the pieces poorly, and can't manipulate the pieces well. Someone with a high intelligence can juggle multiple complex ideas at the same time. Someone with a slightly low intelligence might have the ability to work well with a single idea at a time, but not be able to handle several. Or they might do ok with several simple ideas, but not be good with anything complex.
    The Cranky Gamer
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    With age comes Wisdom while the young are gifted by supercomputer brains. After age 25, the processing speed falls off while more actual understanding of what it means takes place. So even though the elderly may lack the Intelligence of the college students, they possess a much deeper Wisdom than the foolish youth do. This is reflected in the game through aging attribute changes.
    But there aren't any effects of old age on anyone. The game suggests using your age to justify some of your scores, but there isn't any impact of age on any creature's abilities. The negative things that we'd commonly associate with old age (deteriorating senses, blindness, dementia) are all represented by having a low Wisdom. But you're describing Wisdom as increasing as you get older. Using your example, you'd see better and hear better as you would gain in age.

    I think that Wisdom is just better off to not be considered a "mental" stat, in the same way that Intelligence is. Keep it just for perceiving things, and the only things in the game that you have to justify are:
    • Why Clerics use it for casting.
    • Why Druids use it for casting.

    Every skill, and every other example of using Wisdom, would otherwise fit perfectly with this.


    Which seems a lot simpler than figuring out why a blind hermit (6 Wisdom) can't be "wise", or how a 16 year-old Ranger is more "wise" than a 100 year-old Fighter.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-11 at 05:01 PM.
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    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
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    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post

    What makes even less sense than that is a 8 yo with Str 3 preventing the tarrasque from moving by Str alone 3.75% of time, 5e doesn't "make sense", its not its shtick.
    Good things the rules don't let this happen. You cannot grapple anything more than one size larger.
    Last edited by Mellack; 2019-06-11 at 06:22 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellack View Post
    Good things the rules don't let this happen. You cannot grapple anything more than one size larger.
    Then the tarrasque fails to prevent the kid from running 3.75% of the time

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAY MORE View Post
    Let's try with a couple examples, shall we?
    1- the party is facing a puzzle that for me, the player, it's pretty easy to solve, while the 16 INT rogue player is struggling to get a grip. What should I do?
    Find what you think a suitable clue would be, and state that your character is staring intently at it scratching his chin, and tilting his head left, then right, then left again. WIS 12 might realize something is relevant, but INT 8 is making it really hard to figure out exactly how or why. Are you proficient in Perception, by the way (and if not, your DM did not do a good job helping you make your character ) That goes a long way towards explaining why your PC would notice something, but not be able to figure out its specific significance.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAY MORE View Post
    2 -while against the scheming evil politician, I know the evidence that could frame him, while the 18 CHA bard is taking his time. What to do? Act oblivious? Feign brain damage?
    Frankly, sometimes my lower-INT characters did just act oblivious, even when I knew (or had a good idea) what was going on. Sometimes I would act in a way that would be explained by someone trying to pay attention, but kept getting details mixed up (like never writing down names or places, so that when it came up later I could ramble on about it but leave it to someone else to check their notes (i.e. PC's memory) to come up with the specific answer).

    In this specific sort of situation, maybe vaguely mention some of the evidence, but lament that "if only it were true it would be the end of his career." You know about it, but haven't figured out there is a way to use it against him, or how to do it.

    If nothing else, you can always play your low INT for #facepalm moments just to keep in on the conversation, I used to always have my "dumb as a rock but mighty" fighter say something idiotic yet on topic. Not really helpful, although it netted me a DM Inspiration more than once! (And you never know what might nudge another player into thinking about a problem in a way that solves it)

  11. - Top - End - #131
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    I'm playing a 9 Int Naga Paladin.
    His lack of 'smarts' is something I attribute to his being from a whole different part of the world, and never having enjoyed a formal education. What with being from a nomadic desert tribe and all.
    Still, he doesn't get treated as 'stupid', because he isn't.
    Is he less smart than most? Sure. Doesn't mean he gets belittled for it. Though that might also be because the party's seen what he does to creatures that earn his scorn. Suffice to say that you don't want one of his Danger Hugsô.

    As for RP, I portray him as having a mildly child-like interest in the things that happen around him. Sometimes asking 'silly' questions or misunderstanding something to let the smarter people 'dumb it down' for him, which prompts explanation and deeper thought into the matter.
    Which in turn might spark a realization and thr answer for them as they grasp the solution by simplifying the matter for him.

    Always remember Occam's Razor. "The simplest solution is often the correct one".
    And many a D&D party will overthink and overcomplicate things for themselves.

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    But there aren't any effects of old age on anyone. The game suggests using your age to justify some of your scores, but there isn't any impact of age on any creature's abilities. The negative things that we'd commonly associate with old age (deteriorating senses, blindness, dementia) are all represented by having a low Wisdom. But you're describing Wisdom as increasing as you get older. Using your example, you'd see better and hear better as you would gain in age.

    I think that Wisdom is just better off to not be considered a "mental" stat, in the same way that Intelligence is. Keep it just for perceiving things, and the only things in the game that you have to justify are:
    • Why Clerics use it for casting.
    • Why Druids use it for casting.

    Every skill, and every other example of using Wisdom, would otherwise fit perfectly with this.


    Which seems a lot simpler than figuring out why a blind hermit (6 Wisdom) can't be "wise", or how a 16 year-old Ranger is more "wise" than a 100 year-old Fighter.
    blindness is a status effect: you can be infinitely wise and have the blindness status effect and thus be unable to see.

    Furthermore did you notice wisdom did include Medicine!
    Medicine is not just about seeing it is also about knowing dozens of things and understanding what is the most likely explanation for what is wrong on the patient and there can be a lot of different stuff from very odd and specific diseases to stuff like having a slaad growing within the patient all of which are not just guessable just through look but also needs context and asking the patient questions.
    Then you chain that with needing to be able to do surgical operations and knowing which is the right cure.

    All that is done with just a wis check.

    Also I am sure that in animal handling there is a lot more going on than just understanding the animal.

    So by deciding "wisdom is not a mental stat" you make the skill system majorly incoherent.
    I could understand someone moving the perception skills to constitution.
    Last edited by noob; 2019-06-12 at 06:10 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    To further complicate things, there's also the issue that "intelligence" is very poorly defined IRL.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Sane View Post
    To further complicate things, there's also the issue that "intelligence" is very poorly defined IRL.
    And that in real life, aging tanks the stat after 25 which lends to older people having different concepts of what it means versus the young.
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Furthermore did you notice wisdom did include Medicine!
    To be fair, though, I have a problem with Medicine being a Wisdom check. I've heard other people have the same complaint.

    They probably stuck it in Wisdom, because Clerics and Druids always have Wisdom, and it doesn't make much sense for the shamans/healers/priests to not have experience in medicine in a fantasy world. But Druids and Clerics already have magical ways of healing poisons and wounds, and it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to rely on skills to solve those problems.

    Or, put another way, you have a Shaman and a Doctor. Take away their magical powers so that they're just reliant on their skills and experience and now who's the better healer?
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-12 at 12:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes while maintaining balance with default options.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    2D8HP's Avatar

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    And that in real life, aging tanks the stat after 25 which lends to older people having different concepts of what it means versus the young.

    Frankly, some years or a few sleepless nights is all it takes to have that "-1 mod to Intelligence rolls", and if the O.P. has never experienced this I'm guessing that they're very young and/or uniquely lucky, and it's really not hard to role-play at all.

    Playing higher INT than my own on the other hand...

    ...that's hard!
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  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Mark Hall's Avatar

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    Default Re: ..but I'm not THAT dumb!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Frankly, some years or a few sleepless nights is all it takes to have that "-1 mod to Intelligence rolls", and if the O.P. has never experienced this I'm guessing that they're very young and/or uniquely lucky, and it's really not hard to role-play at all.

    Playing higher INT than my own on the other hand...

    ...that's hard!
    After 40, it becomes a lot harder to paper over lack of sleep with calories and caffeine, that's for damn sure.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
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