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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Mostly racial, but sometimes gender and class-related as well, while I think it's taken for granted that Background might dispose some NPC's with knowledge of that against you in some cases. But especially when it comes to aspects like monstrous races, I often see DM's ( In settings where it definitely wouldn't be the case, not to mention some classic FR modules - I.E there are negative associations involved with said race ) who just have NPC's of all-human villages and towns or something of that nature who probably almost never encountered any 'civilized' monsters/devil-spawn in their life and were raised to view them as sworn enemies if they did just greet a party full of various extravagant Tieflings, Drow, Goblins, etc.. as if it were just another casual Tuesday on guard duty or at the shop. Some might go a step further in 'paying homage' to the situation by having an NPC distrust a party or turn up their nose, but not much more than that.

    Again, makes sense in homebrewed settings where it's been established that either nothing is to be taken seriously and NPC's act only as comic reliefs and 'toys' for the party to play with, or a world settings where everything is intermingled, but in the Sword Coast on Faerun for example or many other cases where it's clear that PC's are just getting exceptional treatment that deviates from the world's standard lore - it's way, way off the charts and really breaks immersion for me, even if it 'helps advance the story and make things easier for the players'.

    Personally I inform players whenever I DM that playing certain characters in certain areas ( I.E Monstrous races in non-monstrous zones and vice versa ) is, just as the PHB advises, a risky move. PC's will get exactly the same reaction as any potential NPC in the lore and history would in the same circumstances, with no 'discounts' involved. Which in turn means, you can expect similar attitudes to those of any medieval community when dealing with hated foreigners, much less beings that are deemed 'freaks of nature' or worse. If you're a Drow openly going into a place where the canon stories about unimaginable cruelty, kidnapping babies for sacrifice, historical raids and so on happen, or if you're a Tiefling who basically looks like a Devil openly appearing in places where there usually aren't any ( And according to the PHB Tieflings are pretty rare in general on the Prime Material, just like Aasimar and so on ), then there's going to be weapons drawn, shouting, general mayhem, and if there's any law enforcement around you're probably going to soon find yourself surrounded in an encounter that has a reasonable chance of ending in bloodshed, a higher chance of being detained and awaiting some sort of vetting/judgement ( Depending on what you are ) and probably a mildly decent chance of being kept under heavy watch and some restrictions if you manage to make a good enough appeal.

    If you aren't considered a hated/enemy character per se, say you're a Firbolg or Earth Genasi in a human community, then you could still have some incidents on par with how a leper or hunchback might fare in our own historical societies to some degree, you might get 'profiled' for questioning, be avoided, establishments refusing to service you in some ways if the owner is one of the *****, etc. Finally we have canonically the more 'tame' rivalries or stereotypes that exist between say, Elves, Humans and Dwarves, or the tamer hierarchies of the monstrous races between themselves, which would probably historically be more like a French and Englishman ( depending on the period ) or Han Chinese versus other subgroups, and so on. And it's at that point where you'd get mostly 'normal' reactions with a sprucing of some folk who 'turn up their noses' at you.

    So, if you're picking a character that doesn't fit well with his starting area, It is a very real possibility you'll be spending a lot of the time hooded or masked in some way ( Which is canonical in lore books for a lot of 'hated race' characters ) and dreading the very real possibility of someone asking you to remove it or discovering your identity, which could lead to some serious trouble and a session centered entirely around it. You could of course eventually dispense with it through the usual channel - You did some folk a great service, reveal yourself, and they're inclined to steel their passions, although there's definitely still going to be a 'talk' and public controversy. Or you carry some influential voucher from a ruler that nobody can argue with, or you inspire enough terror that nobody wants to incur your wrath, etc - But it's definitely something to be earned over a few sessions. It won't happen at the beginning by itself.

    Do note however, all of that is only relevant where it is realistic. In some established settings like FR, if you read the lore book or browse articles, there are definitely quite a lot of regions where you'd be burned at the stake or chased with pitchforks or shunned depending on your race, or face discrimination based on gender ( Drow society ), and like, pretty significantly, but naturally there are also renowned cosmopolitan regions like Calimshan or Thesk, or more 'erudite' societies like Thayvian mages that might be more curious or not exactly give a **** if you're part devil or not, and individuals who are just relatively tolerant all around, and so forth, but when you are in the non-cosmopolitan or 'tense' regions, then you won't be spared the brunt of it. NPC's will absolutely take full notice of their visual impression and act accordingly, no matter the cost. And the same goes for some classes - Magically gifted NPC's might be disdainful or snobbish to those who are not, Clerics of competing deities are obviously not going to like your Cleric, you might get into trouble if you're observed using 'Dark Powers' like certain recorded Warlock abilities, and so on.

    I really like consistent environments, so I think it's a balanced approach even if it can be awfully inconvenient to some players at times, but there are DM's who think that it's all annoying and redundant and that the player's choice of immutable character traits should just be relegated to flavor interactions at best, rather than to major interaction consequences, and certainly not of the negative variety. Then there might also be some who tread between. So I'm interested to know, as the title says, what role would you let these sort of prejudices play out in a campaign when it comes to the party?
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2019-06-11 at 06:22 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    I think this is tricky especially when there are elements that have extremely problematic origins. Orcs for example and half-Orcs had some real world parallels that don’t hold up well with more modern sensibilities. The same is true with Drow imo.

    I think one trap is treating a race as a monoculture. All Elves are X, every Dwarf hates Y, etc. In the real world there’s often a fair amount of diversity even among homogeneous groups. I think ultimately communication is key. Make sure the group is open to whatever issue you want to tackle and if something becomes hurtful or offensive, having the trust and support to address it as a group.

    I often use some element of real world history or politics in my homebrew settings, for example the rum trade. Our history with rum is fairly dark and is interconnected with slavery, so I made sure that everyone at the table was comfortable exploring those themes. I also avoided too many real world parallels, slavery was motivated by greed and not based off of racial differences, so anyone could be a victim of it. You certainly don’t want anyone who faces discrimination and oppression in real life to relive it in a fictional setting without their consent.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    I run my game in eberron, so tensions are generally more along national than racial lines due to postwar bad blood, but there are a few races that still get the stick.

    • Warforged: They were created during the last war to fight and as a result face two problems. The first is the fact that they are a very visible reminder of the war, who/what people personally lost, & the victory the prejudiced individual's nation was cheated out of by how the last war ended. The second is a doozie... Warforged don't eat or sleep, they can work two jobs to your one... They can work those jobs at no/minimal risk in conditions that would be dangerous unsafe or require significant protective gear. They are all over the place and get additional hatred for "immigrants took our jobs" & "automation destroyed our jobs" type reasons. The fact that warforged are basically just learning how to be a person & in many ways they are actually better & cheaper than meat based races for labor does not help the matter at all. I reinforce the underlined bit by sometimes describing things to them when no meat races are with them in a way that is both reasonably accurate and also utterly misleading. A bag full of coins might be a useless bell that if shaken vigorously can be heard from a few feet away as an example. This goes both ways though & I've seen warforged players leverage this to simply walk into private areas acting like staff for various investigative type purposes.
    • Shifters: Depending on where you are & the situation people might consider them a bit beastial (because they are), but it's not a significant factor
    • Humans: In the nation of droaam (where my game is mostly set), there is a long history of humans heading in from the east to hunt & kill them some monsters among other things(some justified, some not so much). During the last war those hunts & purges mostly stopped because the easterners were too budy fighting the war. Even though an ogre borrn& raised in Breland is going to be put on a level similar to humans & the rare human born & raised in droaam probably pretty well accepted once it's noticed. The ogre is an easterner & the human knows what it's like to have some rich nut storm into town & start murdering people working fields or something. Even though all of the races (including monstrous ones) live in the eastern nations, humans are/were at the top of that foodchain & get recognized as being responsible for the sins of the past. I've had NPC's kidnap a monstrous PC in order to get them away from human PC's to invite her & her allies to meet someone important because they did not think she would be able to answer honestly in the presence of her assumed slaveowner type human guard and had NPC's refuse to speak to a human rather than the monstrous party member
    • The Dar: Goblinoids in eberron call themselves the Dar (or at least that's the word & goblin is a misunderstanding that one Dar subrace name that was misheard/mispronounced as goblinonly refers to that subrace not goblinoids as a whole) & they basically have zero in common with the "traditional" goblins of FR & goblinslayer. The Dar still have remnants of a eusocial bond, things that might dsometimes look like prejudice is just a matter of the other party being incapable of understanding why they are being treated as they are.
    • Elves:They mostly live on a different continent but were hired as mercenaries by some of the nations during the war & as soon as the day of mourning happened, they went from being employed mercenaries to taking over a nation in the throes of an epic disaster taking away Cyre's government & most of its land in an instant. Everyone knows that an elf is going to steal from you & stab you in the back the first chance they get. Your an elf noble visiting a Wealthy manor in sharn? so what... your lucky to be allowed in the servant's quarters while we talk to the others & don't you dare expect to be using the front door.
    • Halflings: These are less prejudice than sterotypes with good reason to exist. The Boromar Clan is an extremely well known large almost quazilegal criminal organization akin to the mafia, halflings also bear the mark of hospitality & mark of healing (houses ghallanda & Jorasco). Most people assume halflings are mobsters & such so a shopkeep might miss the guy robbing him because the thief's halfling party member is being watched like a hawk under the assumption that he's going to steal something.. and blame the halfling for the loss. This works to the advantage of halflings though since the words of an assumed mobster will sometimes hold more weight than those of j random stranger. I'veseen a PC play off this to shoo away some sentinel marshals (ie city guard types) with a small bribe & quick "this is none of your concern, just some business the marshals need not worry about when they should be eating lunch up the street" even while the halfling's party was engaged in a rather one sided fight maybe 20 feet away.
    Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2019-06-12 at 12:25 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    I'm not entirely sure whether this is intended for DMs only, but I'll jump in with my opinions as a player.

    In our last 3.5 game I played a half-orc from Droaam whose medium-term goal was to become a Knight Templar of the Silver Flame. He faced hostility and disdain from some humans, in Thrane, and I was happy with that because I was deliberately playing against type.

    In our first 5E game, I wanted to play an elf. The DM explained, before Session 0, that elves were the defeated and nearly extinct former overlords of most of the civilized world, and I might face some hostility. That wasn't my intent with the character per se, but coincidentally elves (or elf-analogues) were also distrusted in the setting I pulled my character inspiration from, so that was fine.

    In a recent game I played a kobold, and again, he got the stink-eye from 'civilized' races. Again, I expected and enjoyed it because it was part of the concept.

    If I had created a character *not* expecting prejudice to be part of my experience however, I might have felt differently, I dunno.
    Proclaiming something "objectively" true or false does not excuse you from proving it so.

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    Laserlight's Avatar

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    I haven't seen it nearly as much as would be reasonable. To most outstanding example was when my son's Drow "priest of the death God, Pelor", walked into a temple of Pelor and preached about the drow threat and how untrustworthy they were, "and I AM one, so I should know!" Other than being an amusing interlude, it has essentially no effect.

    I dislike having a large number of sentient races so the issue generally doesn't come up in my games because no one is playing a monster race. I have had the party's half orc only allowed into an upperclass house because he was with a human officer...and the human only got into (and out of) a religious rite (similar to a voodoo ritual) because the half orc was both powerful and right next to him the whole time.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    First and foremost for me will always be the players. If you’re okay letting one of the players be uncomfortable for the sake of a game, then I hope that player finds a much better table very, very soon.

    Even if you want to play a “realistic” setting, it can still be done in a region that’s comparatively metropolitan, or at least has a port, and sees traffic from all manner of races and cultures. Especially so with extremely large cities, where exploring a few blocks can feel like a town in itself, complete with its own culture. You could hold an entire campaign that way, really.

    If you really need to dive deep into the rivers of fantasy racism, I’d probably remember to paint the entire party with that brush. The areas more inclined towards that sort of thinking could easily think ill of the entire party if a single Tabaxi set off their alarm bells. Expect the party to be more okay than usual with the rogue’s thieving antics in these places.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    I am playing in an Underdark campaign at the moment, where we are all monsterous races, and there is even a meta reason that the more weird of us should be accepted (the village we started in is ruled by a unseen lord who brings in new beings to the community, and enforces unity - we are starting to realise this lord is some psionic slaver), and even then, the DM has included a quite clever bit of prejudice:

    My character is a Dragonborn Paladin. He's proved his worth countless times to the village through strength of arms, but there is one problem. I don't have darkvision. I solved this by taking Magic initiate at first level (the DM lets everyone start with a feat), and took Light as one of my cantrips. But of course this means, everywhere I go, I need that light shining, and my character has faced insults, accusations, and will likely face a physical challenge soon from one of the other main fighters of the village, because my requirement for light is seen as a potential vulnerability, and a security risk for the village.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Laserlight's Avatar

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurias View Post
    First and foremost for me will always be the players. If you’re okay letting one of the players be uncomfortable for the sake of a game, then I hope that player finds a much better table very, very soon.
    You're not getting the distinction between "the character is being discriminated against" and "the player is uncomfortable". One does not imply the other.
    Junior, half orc paladin of the Order of St Dale the Intimidator: "Ah cain't abide no murderin' scoundrel."

    Tactical Precepts: 1) Cause chaos, then exploit it; 2) No plan survives contact with...(sigh)...my subordinates.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    As a DM, I largely prefer Cosmopolitan campaigns - even locations with majority homogenous populations have had plenty of experience with the rest of the races in non-hostile contexts. Most locations don't have a single race of creatures either.

    If there is prejudice, it's due to direct past actions of specific groups, not preemptive racial bias. I know that's how a lot of issues about that in other writings - my girlfriend actually was reading about Forgotten Realms, and was confused about all of those stories and wikis stating things about Drow and Orcs being just straight evil to their core. As a DM, I believe that an "evil culture" is one of nurture, not nature.

    In my homebrew campaign, all goblins aren't bad, but those jerks that keep raiding the farms at the edge of mostly-Dwarven outpost of Bearhold are. I'm really hoping the party decides to go south, because I cannot wait for them to discover the Cajun-influenced, hippo-riding Orcs that live in the swamplands (based on the book River of Teeth).

    In my Waterdeep campaign, the party runs across various races as their neighbors and members of the Watch, and employ a goblin and tiefling in their bar. One Human PC's backstory is a fiery hatred towards one specific faction of Orcs due their time in the past war... but not orcs or half-orcs in general. When they uncovered a ship full of drow crew, everyone was concerned - but because they were a bunch of males, without a matriarch present. Even the half-drow bard sent a letter to her Drow father & cousin asking if they were bad news, because their presence was simply odd, not necessarily threatening.
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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    In D&D? Not as much... in fact, the ones that do exist tend to be stereotypes, themselves (q.v. dwarves and orcs and elves, gnomes and goblins and kobolds).

    Outside of D&D? It tends to be a bigger issue. The game worlds, and the games themselves, don't have that assumption of cosmopolitanism that D&D has fostered since 3.x. I tend to de-emphasize gender discrimination, but that's for power structure ideals, and I also take a look at a lot of other prejudices through a lens of "What makes sense for the world described here", rather than assuming all the prejudices from our world automatically show up in fantasy worlds.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    In my current setting prejudice might be considered one of the defining characteristics. The world was invaded by elves (think East India Company). So there are places where all elves are feared and hated. The elves display racial prejudice in various ways and there are places where humans need not apply. Half-elves get the worst of both worlds. Attitudes towards orcs can vary widely depending on where you are. Halflings manage to get along with just about everyone. Dwarves don't particularly want to get along with anyone and attitudes towards them vary widely. Tieflings are kill on sight in some locales and revered nobility in others. Of course, these are the general attitudes. Specifics can vary. And the places that flourish are, notably, the places where prejudice is lower.

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    There's some racial prejudice in my campaign setting. 2 major conflicts in the last few hundred years have had some influence on the racial makeup of my campaign world.

    The first was the War of Shadow. This was the plot of a 3e campaign I ran back in college.
    Spoiler: the basic story
    Show
    The drow (though a coalition of houses, and even different cities) were assaulting the surface, somehow immune to the debilitating effects of sunlight. From initial incursion, the war lasted almost 17 years before the campaign actually started. For the first several years, they only attacked elven lands, and the other races deemed it "an elf problem". Eventually, the drow made it clear that they were going to attack human settlements, too, and the other races got involved...most of them. The dwarven king declared that the dwarven nation would remain neutral in this conflict, and any dwarves who chose to join the Alliance and fight were forbidden from fighting under clan banners, their deeds would not be recorded in clan ledgers. This dissuaded many dwarves from helping. During the course of the campaign, my players discovered that there was a small community of surface drow (worshipers of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee under a fragile banner of peace) that had existed for decades before the conflict, and that some of those drow had actually been disguising themselves and aiding the Alliance (having no desire to see Lolth-worshipers succeed, and knowing they would certainly all be targetted for death if they did). They also discovered that the dwarven king had actually worked out a treaty with the drow, promising his neutrality in exchange for leaving dwarven lands alone, he was even trading with them. The party located the crown prince (a paladin who went into self-imposed exile), and convinced him to usurp his father's throne in the name of what was right and Good. During this confrontation, a drow assassin (one of the surface-dwelling drow that my players had met prior) attacked the king and murdered him. They fled dwarven lands, ostesibly in pursuit of the assassin. When then new king assumed the throne, he immediately joined the Alliance, sent 2 legions of dwarven soldiers to the front, and retroactively restored full clan honors to any dwarves who had already joined the Alliance.
    After the war, news of what the old king had done spread, and many distrusted the dwarves, and many dwarves were ashamed of their own people. Thousands remained on the surface, eventually leading to the divide of Hill and Mountain dwarves in 5e. One of the human cities who had been saved by some of the surface drow (they were instrumental in turning back the drow forces, actually), found out about this, and welcomed these surface-dwelling drow into their city. Tensions were high for a long time, but it's been several hundred years, and that city has grown quite accustomed to them now.

    The effect of all this is that there remains a lot of distrust from most surface races for Mountain Dwarves. Drow PCs are an option in my world, but to avoid "Driz'zt clones", they must come from either the small community of surface drow, or the one major human city with a significant drow population. So drow PCs have never been to the Underdark, and never met a cleric of Lolth (but have heard stories). Pretty much everywhere else, drow are viewed with suspicion, if not hostility. That same human city, ironically, DOES have some racial prejudices, those are covered next...

    The Godswar was my way of transitioning from 3e to 4e/5e.
    Spoiler: the gist of it
    Show
    The Primordials, elemental titans from an alternate reality, invaded and waged war on this reality. They seemed to especially hate the gods, and laid many low with a Wasting Curse that would gradually cause a god's own divinity to slowly kill them. Some gods died. Others learned that if they passed their portfolio on to another, that they could survive. They were still immortal outsiders, just no longer gods. They often stayed on as exarchs to their successor. The "racial pantheons" (dwarven, elven, halfling, etc) had almost all deities therin give their power to the head of that pantheon, and those gods found worshipers among other races as well (so Moradin is now god of crafting for all races, Corellon is god of art and music for all races, etc). The Primordials used epic magicks to drasticaly alter the planes as well. Not only to fuel their own power, but to weaken the gods. They fused all the Inner Planes into the Elemental Chaos, taking the "spokes" out of the Great Wheel, as it were. The Outer Planes became drastically unstable as a result, and many mortal races who lived in these plane fled to the Prime. These races are collectively called "planar refugees" and are comprised of aasimar, tieflings, genasi, and githzerai. Some elven settlements, fearing that the time of this world was short, used Elven High Magic to transport their entire cities to the Feywild, with a spell designed to dialate time, giving them about a decade for every year on the Prime. This gradually turned these elves into eladrin, and their cities have only recently begin to re-appear. Another major event during the Godswar was that the Primordials tried to assault the Prime with a massive elemental storm. The goddess of harvest and life spent a great deal of her own energy to raise up the floor of the sea (and giving her the Wasting Curse as a result), creating a landmass that connected the continent with another, lesser-known continent to the south. The southern land was known as the Drakkensrad, a place where dragons ruled over draconic humanoids (dragonborn) as feudal lords. During and after the war, many dragonborn also emigrated north. This conflict began only a few decades after the War of Shadow, lasted almost a century, and ended almost 4 centuries prior to when the campaign now starts.

    The effect of this conflict introduced dragonborn, tieflings, aasimar, genasi and githzerai to my campaign world. They have been on the Prime for long enough now that some people have at least heard of them (many did return to hte Planes when they stabilized). There are small communities with larger populations of "planar refugees" to the east, but for the most part, they mingle among other humanoid races. Tieflings, for some reason, outnumber all other planar-originating races. But their silver tongues and sharp wit established many as smooth-talking merchants who quickly became profitable.
    How does this relate to prejudice? Well, some people are a bit put off by the alien features of these races (genasi and githzerai especially). So most of them receive lukewarm wlecomes, if that. Not so much dragonborn, as Bahamut filled the gap left by the former (deceased) god of protection and duty, and many dragonborn already worshiped him. But tieflings are often either mistrusted, or inspire jealousy if they have become wealthy. That same human city I mentioned before that accepts drow? Well, they've had problems with fiend-worshiping cults over the last few decades, and as a result, many of the common folk fear and hate tieflings, associating them with the fiends. So while everywhere else, tieflings are warily accepted, and people keep their hand on their sword when a drow is about, there is one city where a drow will get treated no different than a human, but a tiefling will get doors slammed in their faces. Eladrin, for their part, are a relatively new experience for most. The cities only started re-appearing from the Feywild (in elven lands) about a decade or so ago. Even elves seem to view them with a bit of uncertainty, as they no longer seem much like elves. The Shadar-kai, as well, seem to get a cool reception (when they ever leave the Shadowfell at all, which is rare).

    Prejudices from the core races happens, but is less severe. A lot of people think Halflings are thieves, given that so many live like gypsies (lightfoots do, anyway). Many think of (forest) gnomes as jokers and/or buffoons. Half-orcs, actually, do not suffer the prejudice that they once did. Since the orc-blood usually breeds true, most half-orcs are descended from one or more half-orcs, and not the union of human and orc (which does still produce a half-orc). Where they once were only found in more remote towns, where orc raids might be more common, they are now much more common everywhere, and many feel little to no connection or kinship at all with orcs. Half-elves only receive prejudice from the "old guard" mentality high elves, an outlook that is becoming increasingly less common. They, likewise, are usually descended from one or more half-elves.

    I don't usually allow "monster races" in my campaign world*, but I do keep an open mind if a player has a truly compelling character concept and backstory. That said, full-blooded orcs, goblinoids, kobolds, and gnolls will usually be reacted to with alarm, if not suspicion or outright threats. Githyanki are extremely uncommon, as few fled the Astral Plane during the Godswar. And at any rate, most Primes would generally assume one was githzerai anyway.

    *There is one city of fairly civilized kobolds in my world. They're still usually Lawful Evil, but they have an actual city built inside a volcano, which they call Scalyheart. They've learned the value of trade and cooperation with the mountain tribes, and even the small border towns of "tall folk" near them, but they're still not realy friendly. Scalyheart kobolds are distinguishable from their lesser kin usually by their hygiene. They're cleaner, neater, and usually keep their scales well-polished. A PC who wants to be a kobold (even a non-evil one) would probably be from this city. Even so, there are like, 2 towns (little more than villages, really) that would recognize a Scalyheart kobold as something other than a monster and treat them fairly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
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    I run my game in eberron, so tensions are generally more along national than racial lines due to postwar bad blood, but there are a few races that still get the stick.

    • Warforged: They were created during the last war to fight and as a result face two problems. The first is the fact that they are a very visible reminder of the war, who/what people personally lost, & the victory the prejudiced individual's nation was cheated out of by how the last war ended. The second is a doozie... Warforged don't eat or sleep, they can work two jobs to your one... They can work those jobs at no/minimal risk in conditions that would be dangerous unsafe or require significant protective gear. They are all over the place and get additional hatred for "immigrants took our jobs" & "automation destroyed our jobs" type reasons. The fact that warforged are basically just learning how to be a person & in many ways they are actually better & cheaper than meat based races for labor does not help the matter at all. I reinforce the underlined bit by sometimes describing things to them when no meat races are with them in a way that is both reasonably accurate and also utterly misleading. A bag full of coins might be a useless bell that if shaken vigorously can be heard from a few feet away as an example. This goes both ways though & I've seen warforged players leverage this to simply walk into private areas acting like staff for various investigative type purposes.
    • Shifters: Depending on where you are & the situation people might consider them a bit beastial (because they are), but it's not a significant factor
    • Humans: In the nation of droaam (where my game is mostly set), there is a long history of humans heading in from the east to hunt & kill them some monsters among other things(some justified, some not so much). During the last war those hunts & purges mostly stopped because the easterners were too budy fighting the war. Even though an ogre borrn& raised in Breland is going to be put on a level similar to humans & the rare human born & raised in droaam probably pretty well accepted once it's noticed. The ogre is an easterner & the human knows what it's like to have some rich nut storm into town & start murdering people working fields or something. Even though all of the races (including monstrous ones) live in the eastern nations, humans are/were at the top of that foodchain & get recognized as being responsible for the sins of the past. I've had NPC's kidnap a monstrous PC in order to get them away from human PC's to invite her & her allies to meet someone important because they did not think she would be able to answer honestly in the presence of her assumed slaveowner type human guard and had NPC's refuse to speak to a human rather than the monstrous party member
    • The Dar: Goblinoids in eberron call themselves the Dar (or at least that's the word & goblin is a misunderstanding that one Dar subrace name that was misheard/mispronounced as goblinonly refers to that subrace not goblinoids as a whole) & they basically have zero in common with the "traditional" goblins of FR & goblinslayer. The Dar still have remnants of a eusocial bond, things that might dsometimes look like prejudice is just a matter of the other party being incapable of understanding why they are being treated as they are.
    • Elves:They mostly live on a different continent but were hired as mercenaries by some of the nations during the war & as soon as the day of mourning happened, they went from being employed mercenaries to taking over a nation in the throes of an epic disaster taking away Cyre's government & most of its land in an instant. Everyone knows that an elf is going to steal from you & stab you in the back the first chance they get. Your an elf noble visiting a Wealthy manor in sharn? so what... your lucky to be allowed in the servant's quarters while we talk to the others & don't you dare expect to be using the front door.
    • Halflings: These are less prejudice than sterotypes with good reason to exist. The Boromar Clan is an extremely well known large almost quazilegal criminal organization akin to the mafia, halflings also bear the mark of hospitality & mark of healing (houses ghallanda & Jorasco). Most people assume halflings are mobsters & such so a shopkeep might miss the guy robbing him because the thief's halfling party member is being watched like a hawk under the assumption that he's going to steal something.. and blame the halfling for the loss. This works to the advantage of halflings though since the words of an assumed mobster will sometimes hold more weight than those of j random stranger. I'veseen a PC play off this to shoo away some sentinel marshals (ie city guard types) with a small bribe & quick "this is none of your concern, just some business the marshals need not worry about when they should be eating lunch up the street" even while the halfling's party was engaged in a rather one sided fight maybe 20 feet away.
    Spoiler: Conserving space for my responses
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    So, I also love Eberron, and while a number of the things you mentioned are absolutley core, I am curious if you've just changed some things for your game, or were just mentioning bit pieces.
    • Warforged: Totally spot-on, and I like how your players have taken advantage of that. Sounds like they're getting pretty into the setting. What I've always found amusing is that warforged don't actually need money for anything (they don't need shelter or food), but most of them like to work because they like having a purpose. While them working for even lower wages could be cause for even more resentment, it also adds an interesting dynamic to their mindset. It's also why Thrane has basically declared them all indentured servants, making them all "work off" the cost of their production.
    • Shifters: No real notes here, except that I want to express that I'm glad you haven't fallen into the trap of assuming that the CotSF somehow "has it out" for Shifters. So many people who "sort of" know or are "kind of" into Eberron just assume that to be true, because of the Lycanthrope Purge (which never actually targetted shifters, except for a few instances of ignorant peasant mob violence, which the CotSF vehemntly condemned).
    • Humans: I am tickled pink by this. Especially the idea of a Droaam-focused campaign. Do little medusas and Znir pact gnolls get told that big, bad, pink-skinned humans are going to sweep out of the mountains and enslave them if they don't do their chores? Rofl. Very entertaining. Man is the real monster, huh?
    • The Dar: Thank you so much for sharing that article, I found it a fascinating read. But on the note of prejudice, I think City Goblins deserve a special mention. While they are not really "Dar" themselves (and indeed, may consider themslves Cyran or Brelish), they're almost certainly second-class citizens looked down upon by all. Cyran refugees, as well, may resent Darguul goblinoids, as much of the lands owned by Darguun were taken from what used to be Cyre. I've always liked how KB handled the goblinoids, and since I have a personal fondness for flails, I like how flails and spiked chains are generally considered "goblinoid" weapons, culturally.
    • Elves: So here's where I'm a little confused. I get that you're discussing the Valenar elves with this, and all that makes sense for them. But it doesn't seem like the Aerenai would get such a treatment, and the Khorvarian elves (especially those with ties to Phiarlan or Thuranni) almost certainly wouldn't. Were you just focusing on the Valenar because that's the only instance of prejudice?
    • Halflings: I assume this whole section was just in relation to Sharn, or at least Breland, as the Boromar Clan's influence doesn't extend much past that (maybe some still-maintained clan ties to the Talenta Plains). Your PC sounds like he was very quick on his feet, and though I could see Sharn Watch taking such a bribe, it would surprise me if Deneith Sentinal Marshals did. Although...if those individuals were from Sharn, they might know to leave well enough alone...
    • Changelings: The one race I'm surprised you didn't mention, since almost everyone assumes they're liars, cheaters, and thieves once their nature is revealed. To be fair, it's hard to build trust with someone who might be wearing a different face (even yours) the next time they turn around.
    • Orcs: I think a special mention here goes to orcs, but that touches on national prejudices (below). An orc from the Mror Holds is the closest to a "standard" D&D orc, but there are also clans with strong crafting and mining traditions that get along well with some dwarf clans. A Shadow Marches Orc might be viewed even more like an ignorant redneck (banjo music plays) than a human or half-orc from the same region, meanwhile other Marchers would view them as near-kin. And an Eldeen Reaches Orc would be viewed as a bead-wearing hippy that encouraged that nation to secede from Aundair. Which highlights another great thing about Eberron, here the orcs are the tree-huggers and the elves are the bloodthirsty horde (Valenar).
    • National: While you mentioned it briefly, I don't think racial should even be the ony focus, as national prejudice is still prejudice. Aundarians generally distrust Thranes (and Reachers). Few trust Karrns, especially veterans who faced Karrnathi undead in the war. The Brelish are fairly open and easy going as a nation, but that's almost "privilege", as their nation ended fairly well off when the war stopped. Marchers are usually viewed as backwoods hicks (some Reachers, too, for that matter, and the rest are viewed as hippies). Everyone assumes a Lhazaarite is a pirate (and they're probably not wrong), that a Thrane is a religious zealot (again, likely right), and that a Zil gnome is probably a member of a secret network of master spies (about a 50/50 shot on that being true, but the rumor that it's all of them keeps the other 50% safe).


    EDIT: I'll usually let a typo go, but when it turns "sharp wit" into "shart wit", something has to be changed.
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Wall of text snipped.
    I wish you'd have edited the question to be a bit more concise, but here's what I do.

    How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    It's a real part of life, and I have run across it in some weird places in life. It's in stories as well. I don't mind folding bits of it into the swords and sorcery game world, but I take some care and spell things out to the players ahead of time:

    1. The world you are operating in is humanocentric, clannish, and tribal. (Just as the dark ages and middle ages were ...) It's dangerous. It's also filled with magic and wonders. We are not playing the neo-Renaissance Era with a mini UN philosophy like the Forgotten Realms do. (I enjoy FR play, but not as a DM).

    2. Elves and Dwarves may not be, by default, friendly towards humans. But they may be friendly. They can also have evil characters.

    3. If you play a monstrous race, you should be be prepared for some initial negative reactions from some other races. You won't always get it, but don't be surprised by it.

    4. Halflings survived by cunning as well as charm. Don't take Halflings lightly. Pippin is a movie character. The Halflings in my game worlds include a fair number of bards, sorcerers, assassins, thieves, and warlocks. Their clan/family ties are very strong.

    5. Half elves and Half orc PCs and NPCs will now and again run into prejudice due to not being of "pure" blood, -- again that isn't always going to happen, but don't be surprised when it does. Genasi likewise may trip over this now and again.

    6. Superstitions and taboos run amok in the game world.

    A world with animist and pantheon typed religions will have with it the accompanying taboos and superstitions. (Heck, monothesitic religions have them in plentitude as well, but I do not run monotheist games).

    As you (the players) discover them, be aware that it is something for you to deal with. When a sailor on a ship says "it's bad luck to have women in a boat" that taboo/superstition is possibly backed by some 400 years of habit/custom/("conventional wisdom" (just as it was in the early era of the age of sail) and isn't just random intolerance.
    But not all sailors will have the taboo/superstition: there are pirate queens in my game worlds also. Those sailors who have this superstition will not let go of it with a single die roll.

    7. Chivalry ain't dead, but neither is it common. It's quite rare.

    8. Nobles are in general aloof, regardless of race. If your character isn't a noble, you need to figure out how to get them to come to you on more even terms. If not, they'll look down their nose at you as a reflex.

    9. Killing is more common in the game world than in our own world, but there are still powerful taboos, culturally based, against murder and killing ... depending on what culture one is dealing with. Yeah, it can get complicated. Murder Hoboes will earn a reputation as such.

    10. If you don't work as a team, the PC's will most likely die. Loyalty to your team/party is akin to the clan, tribal and family - race loyalties you'll see among some of the NPC's. Getting someone to betray their clan/tribe/family/race takes effort, and takes role play. It may fail, and it may backfire. Again, it takes more than a die roll to pursue such a plan.

    11. Making fun of someone else's god/religion in a game world where gods/deities/divine magic are objectively real can get you killed, cursed, or run out of town on a rail. Or thrown out of an inn/tavern.

    People, kobolds, elves, and various other NPC's may take their religion/belief very seriously, even if you don't. (Cultists can be particularly difficult in this regard).

    12. Drow: I do the BD drow (Before Drizzt). Mess with them at your peril, they're pretty tough. They also dislike / use / enslave / abuse ... pretty much everybody. Cultural chip on shoulder. But guess what? You can make a deal with these folk, if you figure out where their interests lie. Of note: orc clans and tribes are a hell of a lot easier to deal with, to negotiate with than drow.

    13. A lawful good Paladin NPC may think you are a jerk, or that your party are miscreants. How you gonna deal with that? Have a plan, because he's got a lot of people who will back his play.

    --------------------------

    There's a lot more to this, informed by years of DMing and playing where I've seen dozens of variations on these themes.


    A lot of the above ends up requiring role play to resolve, and strategizing.

    Playing in the game world is an excursion into a world that isn't like our own, so the players have to reset some of the Real World assumptions. As we hit rough spots, we discuss them.

    And compared to real world prejudice, what shows up in the game world is very toned down.

    We do this to have fun.
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post

    7. Chivalry ain't dead, but neither is it common. It's quite rare.
    I saw this and it reminded me of this thing I heard from a comedian. It's off-topic and just for laughs, so I'll spoiler block it.

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    Comedian:
    So I hear people say all the time, "chivalry is dead". So I actually went and looked up the Code of Chivalry. Most of it is Medieval battle Etiquette, with only a VERY small part about respecting women.

    Well, the other day, I didn't hold a door open for a woman, and when she walked past me, she said "I guess chivalry is dead".

    So I challenged her to single combat.

    As it turns out...I'm the better jouster.

    Ladies and gentlemen...Chivalry IS alive!

    ...
    ...
    ...

    But that woman is dead.
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    I saw this and it reminded me of this thing I heard from a comedian. It's off-topic and just for laughs, so I'll spoiler block it.

    Spoiler
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    Comedian:
    So I hear people say all the time, "chivalry is dead". So I actually went and looked up the Code of Chivalry. Most of it is Medieval battle Etiquette, with only a VERY small part about respecting women.

    Well, the other day, I didn't hold a door open for a woman, and when she walked past me, she said "I guess chivalry is dead".

    So I challenged her to single combat.

    As it turns out...I'm the better jouster.

    Ladies and gentlemen...Chivalry IS alive!

    ...
    ...
    ...

    But that woman is dead.
    Heh, that's funny. Robin Hobb wrote a trilogy wherein a character is a prince called Chivalry, and his bastard son Fitzchivalry is the main character.
    Spoiler: Robin Hobb Spoiler
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    halfway through the second book, we learn that {Prince} Chivalry is dead. I remember just laughing when she snuck that in.


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    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-06-12 at 02:30 PM.
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by willdaBEAST View Post
    I think this is tricky especially when there are elements that have extremely problematic origins. Orcs for example and half-Orcs had some real world parallels that don’t hold up well with more modern sensibilities. The same is true with Drow imo.
    Can you elaborate on this bit? I’ve never heard of a real world orc or drow parallel. Or how it would be offensive, unless maybe some kind of insult to Nordic people because “dark elf” = Svartalfar or something, but drow aren’t really depicted as Nordic in aesthetic...


    As for racism in my games, I use it a bit. It’s ridiculous to think that so many distinctive people could hold hands & live in harmony, I mean, how could a person who suffered from a Dragon Cult not look sideways at a Dragonborn? Or dwarves that constantly fight Orcs in the undermines not appreciating the presence of a Halforc noble from a country far away? I have a list of a handful of insults & slurs for each race against each race (I’m not going to post it lest my fantasy racism be construed as real life racism) that I might use it a particular NPC is racist, as well as some preconceived notions about their behavior.

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    OP, I think you've got one thing a little backwards. Throughout history frontier areas are usually the most tolerant for two reasons. First, everyone's got bigger problems to deal with and don't see aren't inclined to start trouble if they can avoid it. Second is that frontier zones tend to have had more men than women and well, those guys over there have women!
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    Can you elaborate on this bit? I’ve never heard of a real world orc or drow parallel. Or how it would be offensive, unless maybe some kind of insult to Nordic people because “dark elf” = Svartalfar or something, but drow aren’t really depicted as Nordic in aesthetic....
    I agree. At most Orcs, are sort of representative of savage barbarism from outside the borders of the civilized world. But, that’s an archetype that is so broad in human history that it doesn’t really map to any specific real-world culture.

    And Drow society is so ridiculous, it has no real-world parallels. Drow are eye-rollingly silly. They’re like a heavy metal album fever dream.

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    I use it in my own settings, but I also surround it with enormous, blinking red flags so that my players know about it ahead of time. I'm still in campaign setting development for my next stint as DM, and that's exactly the situation vis-a-vis orcs and orc-blooded.

    The actual warning ran as follows. "This is important! If you play an orc, then at least once during the campaign you should expect a town full of complete strangers to try to murder you just because of your race. If you aren't OK with that, you should not play a character of orcish descent."

    Perversely, our current DM has already decided he wants a half-orc when we switch off campaigns. His eyes are wide open, at least. He thinks it'll make for a good story to play the idealistic, innocent wanderer who has no idea what's about to happen to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by willdaBEAST View Post
    I think one trap is treating a race as a monoculture. All Elves are X, every Dwarf hates Y, etc. In the real world there’s often a fair amount of diversity even among homogeneous groups.
    I see that as less of a trap and more of an opportunity. Sure, orcs differ, but outsiders -- the ones with the prejudice -- tend to treat them all as identical murdering raiders. They also lump goblins, hobgoblins, and other goblinoids in with the orcs. Given that the orcs and the goblinoids have a long-standing hostility, that's spectacularly wrong, but it's the way ignorant, non-cosmopolitan people in the main setting area will view them.

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    It plays no role at all. This is supposed to be a fantasy world and shouldn't be worse off than our own world when they have magic and belts that change genders and cities full of diversity. Prejudice died off. People only hate things that might kill them now.
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    It plays no role at all. This is supposed to be a fantasy world and shouldn't be worse off than our own world when they have magic and belts that change genders and cities full of diversity. Prejudice died off. People only hate things that might kill them now.
    {Scrubbed}
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    Can you elaborate on this bit? I’ve never heard of a real world orc or drow parallel. Or how it would be offensive, unless maybe some kind of insult to Nordic people because “dark elf” = Svartalfar or something, but drow aren’t really depicted as Nordic in aesthetic...
    With Orcs a lot of the issues stem from Tolkien, but it’s pretty clear they represent black people both in their original skintone, broader noses, bigger lips, dreadlocks, etc. I think DnD has tried to address that, but as with Chult, it’s not always fully successful. Basically the approach towards races in fantasy games often is locked into a very Eurocentric and colonial frame of mind. Drow were also original far less purple and more brown/black, at best reinforcing dark = evil.

    This article address a lot of these topics: https://www.autosave.tv/2018/09/24/t...s-and-dragons/
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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by willdaBEAST View Post
    With Orcs a lot of the issues stem from Tolkien, but it’s pretty clear they represent black people both in their original skintone, broader noses, bigger lips, dreadlocks, etc. I think DnD has tried to address that, but as with Chult, it’s not always fully successful. Basically the approach towards races in fantasy games often is locked into a very Eurocentric and colonial frame of mind. Drow were also original far less purple and more brown/black, at best reinforcing dark = evil.

    This article address a lot of these topics: https://www.autosave.tv/2018/09/24/t...s-and-dragons/
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File..._du_Milieu.jpg

    Not seeing anything like you are describing here. Orcs are degenerate elves. Note the lack of broad noses, lack of big lips, lack of dreadlocks, grey skin tone etc. Perhaps you’re projecting?

    The approach towards fantasy races has always been “Eurocentric” because that is where the idea of those races stems. Australia does not have elves, Scandinavia does. I don’t see many people writing Aboriginal Fantasy so why should they culturally appropriate elves from Europe instead of using their own myths & legends like European writers? I also don’t see a lot of colonies in Forgotten Realms nor any WoTC setting.

    Any drow with a skin tone that is not pure monotone black is not a drow. Purple skin, brown skin, grey skin, doesn’t matter, drow have pure pitch black skin, a skin tone that does not occur in humans. They are modeled after the dark elves of Nordic myth.

    Dark does mean evil in many cultures, it’s not new. Bad guys wear black robes not saffron, they wear black armor, not chartreuse

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    Can you elaborate on this bit? I’ve never heard of a real world orc or drow parallel. Or how it would be offensive, unless maybe some kind of insult to Nordic people because “dark elf” = Svartalfar or something, but drow aren’t really depicted as Nordic in aesthetic...
    Well, the Drizzt books certainly seem to use Drow to create parallels with racism.

    Except it's rather weird, as the tone of the books implies that such racism is wrong, yet in context the Drow as a race are depicted as being 99.9% evil. So assuming that a given Drow is evil hardly seems unreasonable.

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by willdaBEAST View Post
    With Orcs a lot of the issues stem from Tolkien, but it’s pretty clear they represent black people both in their original skintone, broader noses, bigger lips, dreadlocks, etc
    1e orcs are literally pig dudes.



    I'm not a huge fan of overt racism in my campaigns because I play with a mixed group of people (racially, gender) and figure that, after a day of getting crap for who you are as a person, your idea of fantasy escapism probably isn't getting crap for your selected race. My exception is a half-hobgoblin race (no orcs in the base campaign area) where it's made abundantly clear that no one is going to like you. This doesn't mean everyone else is all happy-happy but it's more mild distrust or curiosity than shunning, closed doors and racial slurs.

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    Default Re: How much of a role do you let prejudice play in your campaign?

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