Aragorn's suggestion for breaking the fellowship

[diplomancer]

For sure it is Gandalf's death that makes Aragorn consider going with Frodo. What Aragorn wants to do is to travel to Minas Tirith to fight its battles, but Gandalf's death changes the board and Aragorn knows that now he is the most suited to help Frodo get into Mordor. Note that the original plan of Gandalf going with Frodo would mean that Sauron probably has no special detection ability that would ping Legolas (if he can't ping Gandalf, there is no way he is going to ping a Sindar).

As to the long way around, I think it is specifically said that it would be not only too dangerous (all that area is under control of Sauron), but also too time-consuming, Sauron would have defeated Gondor and therefore would be able on focusing on finding the Ring.

[Spore]

Aragorn's skillset is needed to navigate, and Gimli is a good backup fighter who's very good in caves, and dwarves are very resistant to being corrupted by rings.

I think the problem was that he never truly met a hobbit before and underestimated them. They are a burden on the travels, they fight decently (for hobbits) but not well, so on a tactical standpoint they are just not doing so good.

But this is not a battle that is fought with armies and muscle and scouts alone. It is mainly a battle of wits, and hobbits were well equipped (Gollum too, I think he resisted the ring for pretty long afaik).

[Fyraltari]

Aragorn spent years protecting the Shire, only Gandalf (and maybe Bombadil) knows the Hobbits better than he does.

[LibraryOgre]

Aragorn spent years protecting the Shire, only Gandalf (and maybe Bombadil) knows the Hobbits better than he does.

I mean, if nothing else, he was a regular in Bree, and so he certainly knew a number of hobbits from that (since I don't recall that he was specifically in the Shire at any point).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Aragorn spent years protecting the Shire, only Gandalf (and maybe Bombadil) knows the Hobbits better than he does.

This is true, but the protectors don’t always have a high opinion of those they’re protecting, at least in terms of combat capability. Otherwise why would they need protecting?

Aragorn has spent years protecting the shire, but also Bree, and so his view of the hobbits and Bree-folk is from the perspective of someone who travels through lands they’ve never seen, facing dangers they’ve never dreamed of. To him, the hobbits and Bree-folk must seem insular, sheltered, and preoccupied with their own small lives.

This is not to say he looks down on them--Aragorn is wiser than that; but he’s never seen them under duress, and I believe he exclaims several times how hobbits are tougher and more resilient than he’d imagined.

I would say only Gandalf knows the true depths of hobbit-courage, since he’s known them for many generations, likely before they even came to the Shire. Bombadil may have some knowledge of them, but he tends to live apart from the mortal races, whereas Gandalf lives among them, and both watches and listens closely to them.

He clearly has a great deal of respect for them, despite their humble ways. After all, he came to Bag End looking for a burglar, rather than Bree.

[hymer]

It's possible that Legolas was out simply because an Elf would be more likely to draw Sauron's eye in Mordor. They are more spiritually prominent, in general, than either Men or Dwarves. He's not a flashbulb like Glorfindel, never having lived under the light of the Two Trees, but it's quite possible he would still draw too much attention.

I see this notion of Glorfindel or other elf-lords being in some way too noticeable about on the web. But I can't actually connect it with the text. Gandalf advices against sending a mighty Elf, but not by implying he would draw too much attention in himself. Gandalf just wants Merry and Pippin along, feeling they will have important parts to play (as indeed they do). Elrond says at one point that even if he had a great host of elves, it would be of little use on the Quest. But again with no implication that it is their spirits that would be the problem, but rather that they would be unable to fight their way into Mordor. I wonder if, like Gandalf, they are only 'revealed' when they choose to use their power, like Glorfindel did at the ford?

Does anyone know of any way to connect the thought to some text somewhere?

This is not to say he looks down on them--Aragorn is wiser than that; but he’s never seen them under duress, and I believe he exclaims several times how hobbits are tougher and more resilient than he’d imagined.

I recall one time he says that, but that is when Frodo is struck by an Orc captain's spear. The marvel is more due to the hidden mithril armour that Frodo was wearing. Maybe there are other cases?
But I agree with the general sense that the story has a general theme about Hobbits being much more than they seem:

Hobbits really are amazing creatures, as I have said before. You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch.

(since I don't recall that he was specifically in the Shire at any point)

I don't either, but there was a watch of Rangers at Sarn Ford, which is on the border of the Shire. They were driven off by the Nazgûl when they came that way into the Shire searching for Baggins. But Strider seems an unknown name in the Shire, so presumably he did not socialize there as he sometimes did in Bree.

[Vinyadan]

I see this notion of Glorfindel or other elf-lords being in some way too noticeable about on the web. But I can't actually connect it with the text. Gandalf advices against sending a mighty Elf, but not by implying he would draw too much attention in himself. Gandalf just wants Merry and Pippin along, feeling they will have important parts to play (as indeed they do). Elrond says at one point that even if he had a great host of elves, it would be of little use on the Quest. But again with no implication that it is their spirits that would be the problem, but rather that they would be unable to fight their way into Mordor. I wonder if, like Gandalf, they are only 'revealed' when they choose to use their power, like Glorfindel did at the ford?

Does anyone know of any way to connect the thought to some text somewhere?

I think you have found the relevant part.

`What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?'

`Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege, if things go on as they are going. The Dark Lord is putting forth all his strength.

There is no mention of "turning it off", because he simply exists on both sides.

Which leads to the question of whether Gandalf also does, and whether he would have been a signal beacon once in Mordor; I guess not, since he wanted to get there. Or maybe existing on both sides really doesn't make someone that visible from miles away, and I think that's the right answer.

I don't believe Elves actually sent off any special signal in Mordor, anyway, and, if Glorfindel did, that's because he was a special case, which Legolas wasn't.

About special power, though, there is some text in the Silmarillion where Sauron is depicted as especially perceptive.

Then Sauron made it into a watchtower for Morgoth, a stronghold of evil, and a menace; and the fair isle of Tol Sirion became accursed, and it was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat.

In the pits of Sauron Beren and Felagund lay, and all their companions were now dead; but Sauron purposed to keep Felagund to the last, for he perceived that he was a Noldo of great might and wisdom, and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand.

However, what caused Sauron to have Felagund captured wasn't that he had perceived his power from afar, but the fact that Felagund had masked himself as an Orc and had not stopped to report at Sauron's tower when he passed by.

[Jay R]

Aragorn intended to go to Minas Tirith when Gandalf was taking the hobbits to Mordor. Once he became the leader, he had to stick with the main quest.

Right before Aragorn made his choice, Legolas said that he would prefer to go to Minas Tirith. Then Gimli said that he could not abandon Frodo, and Legolas quickly agreed. It's possible that Aragorn chose Gimli because he spoke up first about going with Frodo.

He also needed somebody to protect Merry and Pippin -- in the forests. Obviously, Legolas is better than Gimli for that task.

[Lapak]

I'm convinced that visibility in the realm of spirit probably didn't disqualify Legolas, but WRT to Gandalf v. Glorfindel, cloaking his power is very prominently part of Gandalf's portfolio and is explicitly part of his mission, so I am betting that was why he was not concerned on that front.

[hymer]

There is no mention of "turning it off", because he simply exists on both sides.

The mention comes a little later from the part you quoted:

Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath [...]

The Nazgûl passed by Glorfindel, and not until he 'turned it on', as it were, was he "revealed in his wrath". That got their attention.

I agree that existing on both sides probably does not make you particularly visible to Sauron. Or at least, I see no clear sign in the text that this would be so.

Which leads to the question of whether Gandalf also does, and whether he would have been a signal beacon once in Mordor; I guess not, since he wanted to get there. Or maybe existing on both sides really doesn't make someone that visible from miles away, and I think that's the right answer.

Do we know that he intended to go into Mordor? I get the feeling he was taking things one leg at a time, allowing himself to be guided by signs and his intuition.
But he does worry about being revealed when he uses his special abilities. This is why he is reluctant to make fire at Caradhras. Then again, he mentions that he is revealed for those who have eyes, IIRC. While 'eye' does have connotations of Sauron, presumably it means what it says: An old-looking fellow making fire from nothing is Gandalf to any spy who knows anything.

About special power, though, there is some text in the Silmarillion where Sauron is depicted as especially perceptive.

There is plenty of that going on in LotR, as well. Though how much of that is due to having a palantír in his possession?

[Aragorn] also needed somebody to protect Merry and Pippin -- in the forests.

What forests are you thinking of here?

cloaking his power is very prominently part of Gandalf's portfolio and is explicitly part of his mission, so I am betting that was why he was not concerned on that front.

Interesting thought.

[Friv]

People have given some very wise answers, so I'm going to do the opposite. ;)

But what about himself? He has other important things he could be doing, like going with Boromir. And why Gimli? And why not Legolas? What do you guys think?

Obviously Aragorn's thinking is being influenced by the Ring here, so he's picking entirely people with stubby legs. That way he can just grab the Ring and book it, and the others won't be able to catch up.

[diplomancer]

People have given some very wise answers, so I'm going to do the opposite. ;)



Obviously Aragorn's thinking is being influenced by the Ring here, so he's picking entirely people with stubby legs. That way he can just grab the Ring and book it, and the others won't be able to catch up.

Short legs AND no ranged weapons. I think we're on to something.

[Keltest]

Short legs AND no ranged weapons. I think we're on to something.

Hobbits are very good with thrown stones though.

[Lapak]

Hobbits are very good with thrown stones though.

If he waits until they get to the swamps first, there are no loose stones handy. Plus his height is a double advantage there!

[Traab]

As another possibility. Aragorn did NOT want to be king iirc. It took the dire straits middle earth was in, and the necessity of going to call on the ghost army that made him finally stand up and be willing to take his place as the heir of isildur. He may very well have been taking the chance to avoid gondor by justifying it with his skill as a ranger being needed to guide frodo.

[Thomas Cardew]

As another possibility. Aragorn did NOT want to be king iirc. It took the dire straits middle earth was in, and the necessity of going to call on the ghost army that made him finally stand up and be willing to take his place as the heir of isildur. He may very well have been taking the chance to avoid gondor by justifying it with his skill as a ranger being needed to guide frodo.

That's absolutely an artificiality of the movies that Peter Jackson put in. In the books, there is no hesitation, it's an active goal and the prequiste for his marriage to Arwen.

Jackson screwing this up is only slightly behind his character assassination of Denethor. Albeit, that's miles behind his pure butchering of Faramir.

[Traab]

That's absolutely an artificiality of the movies that Peter Jackson put in. In the books, there is no hesitation, it's an active goal and the prequiste for his marriage to Arwen.

Jackson screwing this up is only slightly behind his character assassination of Denethor. Albeit, that's miles behind his pure butchering of Faramir.

And his slaughter of gimli ranks where in that? Im starting to think the only characters he got right were sauron and gollum. Sorry, I forgot about the books, its honestly been YEARS since I read them, as in years before I saw the movies.

[Mordar]

And his slaughter of gimli ranks where in that? Im starting to think the only characters he got right were sauron and gollum. Sorry, I forgot about the books, its honestly been YEARS since I read them, as in years before I saw the movies.

That's by far the worst. This whining about the humans is just more evidence of the widespread anti-dwarf sentiment.

- M

[Vinyadan]

Aragorn intended to go to Minas Tirith when Gandalf was taking the hobbits to Mordor. Once he became the leader, he had to stick with the main quest.

Right before Aragorn made his choice, Legolas said that he would prefer to go to Minas Tirith. Then Gimli said that he could not abandon Frodo, and Legolas quickly agreed. It's possible that Aragorn chose Gimli because he spoke up first about going with Frodo.

He also needed somebody to protect Merry and Pippin -- in the forests. Obviously, Legolas is better than Gimli for that task.

Nice catch, I think this is the right answer. Even without forests, Legolas had his senses and odd sleeping habits to look after the Hobbits until they got to Minas Tirith. Plus he likely was a good hunter.

Others have noticed the royal line deal; but Aragorn must have been well aware of kingdoms surviving without kings, and, after all, he was from a royal line, too. Thinking about it, I don't think he was scared of Legolas going for the Ring; not any more than he should have been about himself, given that Isildur was his gran-gran-pappy.

The Nazgûl passed by Glorfindel, and not until he 'turned it on', as it were, was he "revealed in his wrath". That got their attention.

That's a good point, especially since the Nazgul already were acquainted with Glorfindel from the times of Angmar. I assume that he always was in both worlds, but he could choose if he wanted to be visible in the wraith world or not. Or maybe he looked different to them when he was really angry. Glorfindel and Gandalf strike me mostly as exorcists, rather than actual destroyers. Gandalf makes the flying Nazgul run away with a flash of light at Minas Tirith, fights them off at Amon Sul, and impedes the Witch-king's entrance into Minas Tirith after the gate is broken. Glorfindel makes him run away during the final battle against Angmar:

But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it. Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went. Eärnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." These words many remembered; but Eärnur was angry, desiring only to be avenged for his disgrace.

and his wrath could actually be his act of sending them away.

There's another interesting thing about Glorfindel: in Tolkien's newer texts, he is something of a Gandalf double. During his previous life in the First Age, he killed a Balrog falling with it down a mountain to save others. This gave him great spiritual power, when he reincarnated in Aman. Here he became a friend and follower of Olorin. He later went to Middle-Earth to lend a hand before Numenor was destroyed, most likely when Aman was still part of the physical world and such a voyage was possible without impediment. He is almost equal to the Maiar; unlike them, he can't change his bodily shape, in a condition similar to the Istari, although for different reasons.

Which leads to a secondary question: could Gandalf defeat the Witch-king? The Nazgul is clearly very sure of himself when he meets him in Minas Tirith (that, or he's a great bluffer). It's possible that he felt safe because of the prophecy; which can be read in two ways. One is "No human will kill me", which would mean that he considered Gandalf a human. This would be odd, since there had been the run-ins at Dol Guldur and Amon Sul, so someone should have told him that Gandalf was very long-lived and could use magic. The other one is "No male will kill me", which in theory ran contrary to how he had had to run away from Glorfindel. However, Glorfindel seemed content to compel him to escape, which is different from killing. This is why I called him an exorcist; a guy who "boooohed" wraiths in the same way wraiths "boooohed" the living.

It's true that Gandalf calls himself more dangerous than anyone else except Sauron in Two Towers, but Tolkien explained in a letter:

Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

which means that the Witch-king was stronger in ROTK. Denethor calls him a match for Gandalf, and insinuates that Gandalf lost against him; which should already show that he was going insane, since Gandalf being defeated would have left the Nazgul unchallenged. Anyway, Gandalf is not in the condition to say "I will win, and that's is".

‘Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor. ‘For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?’

Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. ‘It might be so,’ Gandalf answered softly. ‘But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him.

From this point of view, I wonder if this greater power he had obtained from Sauron was, among other things, immunity to being compelled to run away, as he had done before Glorfindel and the other Nazgul had had to do before Gandalf. Gandalf tries to shoo him, and fails. Then things would have gotten very real.

[Thomas Cardew]

And his slaughter of gimli ranks where in that? Im starting to think the only characters he got right were sauron and gollum. Sorry, I forgot about the books, its honestly been YEARS since I read them, as in years before I saw the movies.

Orthogonallly? He doesn't really murder Gmili's core motivations the way he does with Faramir, Denethor, and Aragorn. It's an execution problem not a fundamental one. Take away Gmili's comedic moments and nothing about the character fundamentally changes. He just gets a lot less screen time.

Make Aragorn want to be king and you change some of big arcs of the third movie at least.

That's by far the worst. This whining about the humans is just more evidence of the widespread anti-dwarf sentiment.

- M

NVM. This is right.

[Vinyadan]

Make Aragorn want to be king and you change some of big arcs of the third movie at least.

And the second movie, to build up Aragorn and Arwen by force of flashbacks. But it did culminate in RotK. That whole "Guess what, Arwen is dying if you don't win this war" thing. Gee, aren't we all? Played much better in DM of the Rings. https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148

[Thomas Cardew]

Thanks, it's been awhile since I've watched the movies. Couldn't remember if that was just in the 3rd movie or Jackson started it earlier

[deuterio12]

And the second movie, to build up Aragorn and Arwen by force of flashbacks. But it did culminate in RotK. That whole "Guess what, Arwen is dying if you don't win this war" thing. Gee, aren't we all?

Well no, Sauron always likes having more slaves and the orcs quite appreciate human flesh jerky, so plenty of people would be allowed to live so they could work and reproduce in a sustainable way to satisfy the palate of orcish gourmets.

Unless you mean it in a more fatalistic/nihilistic "everybody dies eventually", but then why bother fighting the war at all?

[BannedInSchool]

And his slaughter of gimli ranks where in that? Im starting to think the only characters he got right were sauron and gollum. Sorry, I forgot about the books, its honestly been YEARS since I read them, as in years before I saw the movies.

Eh, the Stinker vs. Slinker is way overplayed in the movies vs the books. And Sauron still has a (re-formed) body with a missing finger in the books, so the Eyeball isn't that non-metaphorical.

[Traab]

Eh, the Stinker vs. Slinker is way overplayed in the movies vs the books. And Sauron still has a (re-formed) body with a missing finger in the books, so the Eyeball isn't that non-metaphorical.

Too be fair, it was a really GOOD overplaying of slinker and stinker. I kinda liked it as it showed how even after spending lord knows how long under the utter domination of the ring, there was still resilience left in his soul. It may very well have been doomed to failure no matter what frodo and sam did, and there is no way in heck he would have stood by and let frodo chuck the ring even if he HAD stayed decent after that leave now scene, but smeagol was still in there, which is honestly pretty badass when you think of it.

[diplomancer]

Too be fair, it was a really GOOD overplaying of slinker and stinker. I kinda liked it as it showed how even after spending lord knows how long under the utter domination of the ring, there was still resilience left in his soul. It may very well have been doomed to failure no matter what frodo and sam did, and there is no way in heck he would have stood by and let frodo chuck the ring even if he HAD stayed decent after that leave now scene, but smeagol was still in there, which is honestly pretty badass when you think of it.

Im pretty sure that Tolkien states in one of his letters that, had Gollum become good (which was a possibility, and it is heavily implied that it didn't happen because of the way Sam treats him), he would still have taken the Ring from Frodo, by violence, but he would have voluntarily jumped into the crater.

[Traab]

Im pretty sure that Tolkien states in one of his letters that, had Gollum become good (which was a possibility, and it is heavily implied that it didn't happen because of the way Sam treats him), he would still have taken the Ring from Frodo, by violence, but he would have voluntarily jumped into the crater.

Oh yeah, I know its totally sams fault gollums redemption didnt happen, even if he had no real way of knowing it was legit like us instead of another trick. Im a bit surprised if what you say tolkien said is true, I kinda liked how in the end nobody, not even the hero of the story, was able to willingly destroy the ring. It was pure chance and luck that it got destroyed at the end.

[hymer]

Im pretty sure that Tolkien states in one of his letters that, had Gollum become good (which was a possibility, and it is heavily implied that it didn't happen because of the way Sam treats him), he would still have taken the Ring from Frodo, by violence, but he would have voluntarily jumped into the crater.

Apart from taking the Ring and jumping into the fire with it, this is all to be found in letter 181 to Michael Straight. The bit about sacrificing himself for Frodo while retaining possession (though stealing might have sufficed) for the Ring is from letter 246.

[hamishspence]

And Sauron still has a (re-formed) body with a missing finger in the books, so the Eyeball isn't that non-metaphorical.

I loved Terry Pratchett's take on this in Going Postal:



Moist slipped in unnoticed, for now, because people were watching the University's biggest omniscope. Archchancellor Ridcully thumped the side of the thing with his hand, causing it to rock. 'It's still not working, Mr Stibbons!' he bellowed. 'Here's that damn enormous fiery eye again!'

'I'm sure we have the right—' Ponder began, fiddling with the rear of the big disc. 'It's me, sir, Devious Collabone, sir,' said a voice from the omniscope. The fiery eye pulled back and was replaced by an enormous fiery nose. 'I'm here at the terminal tower in Genua, sir. Sorry about the redness, sir. I've picked up an allergy to seaweed, sir.'

[McStabbington]

And his slaughter of gimli ranks where in that? Im starting to think the only characters he got right were sauron and gollum. Sorry, I forgot about the books, its honestly been YEARS since I read them, as in years before I saw the movies.

Eh, that's a bit of an exaggeration. The truth is that a lot of people only see four or five movies a year, and you really do need to keep motivations basic in order to help the normals distinguish between characters, understand what's going on, and follow the plot. That's especially when we're talking about a film franchise that helped establish that audiences could follow a dense, multi-layered, multi-character-ed plot with multiple plot threads moving at once.

In that context, it does make sense to make one character the comic relief character. They do the same thing with Drax in the Guardians of the Galaxy franchise; many of his jokes don't fit with the characterization that he takes everything literally. But they do leaven the frequently dire situation, and that's not nothing when you're watching a film.

Is it true that a lot of characters had their characterizations altered? Yes. As a fan of the books, do I generally wish they would stick straight to the text? Usually. I was not really a fan of what they did with Denethor or Faramir. But by the same token, they greatly improved Boromir, and I can understand why they did what they did. Not everything can be written for loremasters like us.