The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 287
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Magrathea
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I missed that. Can you direct me to that?
    There's the "Worlds within worlds, yarns winding yarns", the "Odin has a high priest who delivers prophecies", and the fact that its like that in actual mythology.
    I'm not going to go dig up the precise strips right now though.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I missed that. Can you direct me to that?
    Odin's prophecy. Spindle's wind the string forward but not back ("I can remember the future, but not the past").

    Now you could argue that Thor, and Hurak, and indeed the exposition is all mistaken. But that is quite the claim to make, given how accurate Odin's Prophecy has been, when you do not add extra condition such as "Durkon must be personally involved in both the death and the destruction".

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    So, I’ve seen at least five different explanations in this very thread telling me how Odin’s prophecy was fulfilled, or will be fulfilled, or could be fulfilled.

    If we can’t even agree on whether it’s complete or not, how are we agreeing it’s true?

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    So, I’ve seen at least five different explanations in this very thread telling me how Odin’s prophecy was fulfilled, or will be fulfilled, or could be fulfilled.

    If we can’t even agree on whether it’s complete or not, how are we agreeing it’s true?
    Because there is a difference in the details, without a difference in the overall conclusion.

    There are far more than five explanations on, say, the causes of the Fire of Rome under Nero. Few doubt it happened.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Magrathea
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Because there is a difference in the details, without a difference in the overall conclusion.

    There are far more than five explanations on, say, the causes of the Fire of Rome under Nero. Few doubt it happened.

    Grey Wolf
    This gets the point across pretty well.
    There's discussion about why and how something happened, no discussion about whether it did.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    The question is why are you separating the two? If the Oracle has on-demand knowledge of the future, for what reason do you have to claim "well, his prophecies still might not come true/be false", as you have been doing.

    You're majorly splitting hairs here, and it makes no sense.
    As far as I can tell, Dion has a philosophical objection to the idea of prophecies, and/or isn't making a distinction between "in the real world" and "in this fantasy story"...which leads him to make goofy claims in the name of pretending that prophecies aren't real* in OotS.

    *Dion, that semantic argument you're halfway through writing: save your keystrokes.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    As far as I can tell, Dion has a philosophical objection to the idea of prophecies, and/or isn't making a distinction between "in the real world" and "in this fantasy story"...which leads him to make goofy claims in the name of pretending that prophecies aren't real* in OotS..
    I suspect that Dion has already decided that Odin's prophecy cannot come true, and thus all this is serving the effort of trying to prove said point. Thus their insistence on, say, requiring the prophecy to predict precisely who will cause the destruction, and crowing that it didn't happen in that exact way.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Valencia, Spain
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    This doesn't follow. If the future is pre-determined, then it was always going to be the case that Belkar would ask, that the Oracle would see that Belkar would kill him, and also see that the Mark of Justice would activate, and that the mark would activate because he would have established the town behind the tower. He had not choice in the matter, that's what was going to happen, so it did.

    Alternatively, if there is free will (as we have been told there is, in-story), Belkar made the choice to ask, the Oracle then saw himself being killed by Belkar, and made the choice to tell him as little as possible. Then spent some time and money preparing both his revenge on Belkar and setting up his resurrection. He could've chosen to do neither, or one and not the other, but chose to do both.

    Both scenarios are possible in-story.

    Grey Wolf
    All the events regarding the Oracle and his prophecy on Belkar are really interesting, if one thinks about them.

    - The Oracle brought a wand to banish Roy's spirit. In doing so, he allowed him to bypass the Memory Charm. Roy assumed it was unintended, but was it? The Oracle either isn't omniscent (thus blundered by not foreseeing Roy would bypass the Charm) or he is and did it on purpose. For what purpose? Also he gave Roy the info about Belkar's death as a prophecy, so Roy would remember even if the Memory Charm triggered. And he gave it on his own votion, without Roy asking for it. The Oracle wanted Roy to know, and remember. Why?

    - The way the Oracle set up the triggering of the Mark of Justice, was actually beneficial for Belkar. Because it triggered inside the bounds of the Memory Charm, the triggering was forgotten by Haley, who would otherwise had abandoned Belkar. This ultimately led to Belkar having his epiphany and beggining his path to redemption, and the Curse being removed by the Priest of Loki. Had the Oracle not triggered it, Belkar would have triggered it later and the Order would have abandoned him, or, worse still, he would have fleed instead of fighting the Thieves' Gild (to avoid triggering the Mark), and Haley would have been killed and Roy's corpse lost.

    Did the Oracle foresee it and acted on purpose? Did he not, proving that he is far from omniscent? Did Tiamat feed him just enough info to manipulate him into helping the Order?

    Questions, questions...
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-06-14 at 02:19 PM.

    I owe Emanick 20 quatloos if the Sphinx Pox turns out to have a further story role beyond "passing commentary" - and vice versa.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    This gets the point across pretty well.
    There's discussion about why and how something happened, no discussion about whether it did.
    Even Thor and Odin seem to be unclear of if it happened in the comic.

    I’m choosing to read it as the nuanced type of storytelling where these things are ambiguous, and not the ham-handed sort where prophecy is unambiguously true.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-06-14 at 02:12 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Did Tiamat feed him just enough info to manipulate him into helping the Order?

    Questions, questions...
    It is at least moderately plausible that Tiamat set this up to exact her revenge on the three fiends, if nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Even Thor and Odin seem to be unclear of if it happened in the comic.

    I’m choosing to read it as the nuanced type of storytelling where these things are ambiguous, and not the ham-handed sort where prophecy is unambiguously true.
    This story has multiple prophecies that are unambiguously true. Not that it makes the story ham-handed.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-06-14 at 02:16 PM.
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I suspect that Dion has already decided that Odin's prophecy cannot come true, f
    But it did come true. Durkon names his new hammer Destruction.

    I think you have decided that you are the only person who has read the comic correctly.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    But it did come true. Durkon names his new hammer Destruction.
    At this point, you are just contradicting yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I think you have decided that you are the only person who has read the comic correctly.
    Wait, so according to you, there are multiple people who agree with me, but somehow that means I think they must be wrong? Interesting "logic".

    No, I do not believe I am the only person reading this correctly. I do however think that you are reading this incorrectly. For the reasons I have given, and that you have not addressed.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-06-14 at 02:19 PM.
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Wait, so according to you, there are multiple people who agree with me,

    Grey Wolf
    They all seem to agree that they disagree with my interpretation. I haven’t seen anyone agree with your interpretation.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Valencia, Spain
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It is at least moderately plausible that Tiamat set this up to exact her revenge on the three fiends, if nothing else.
    Three Fiends who were able to do what they did because of Tiamat. Didn't she know what would happen when, through the Oracle, she granted ABD the identity of YBD's murderer? It would be not out of character for official D&D Tiamat to don't give a dime about the well being of evil dragons, but she seemed pretty pissed on the IFCC when Darth V exterminated all those black dragons...

    What's the deal with Tiamat, anyway? She is the only God who keeps fluent communications with the Dark One, after all.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-06-14 at 02:27 PM.

    I owe Emanick 20 quatloos if the Sphinx Pox turns out to have a further story role beyond "passing commentary" - and vice versa.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    They all seem to agree that they disagree with my interpretation. I haven’t seen anyone agree with your interpretation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Because there is a difference in the details, without a difference in the overall conclusion.

    There are far more than five explanations on, say, the causes of the Fire of Rome under Nero. Few doubt it happened.

    Grey Wolf
    This gets the point across pretty well.
    There's discussion about why and how something happened, no discussion about whether it did.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Which bings us to... didn't she know what would happen when, through the Oracle, she granted ABD the identity of YBD's murderer? It would be not out of character for official D&D Tiamat to don't give a dime about the well being of evil dragons, but she seemed pretty pissed on the IFCC when Darth V exterminated all those black dragons...
    That's the problem with omniscience without omnipotence. They saw it coming, but couldn't stop it. I can see how that'd make them mad.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Valencia, Spain
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post




    That's the problem with omniscience without omnipotence. They saw it coming, but couldn't stop it. I can see how that'd make them mad.

    Grey Wolf
    But she could. She could have blocked the Oracle from informing ABD. Or had mislead ABD into another target.

    Unless... she is not omniscent, neither the Oracle, and the prophecies are just as vage to them as are to the readers.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-06-14 at 02:29 PM.

    I owe Emanick 20 quatloos if the Sphinx Pox turns out to have a further story role beyond "passing commentary" - and vice versa.

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    But she could. She could have blocked the Oracle from informing ABD. Or had mislead ABD into another target.

    Unless... she is not omniscent, neither the Oracle, and the prophecies are just as vage to them as are to the readers.
    Blocking the Oracle from delivering the prophecy would fall under omnipotence, though. We know the gods limit their ability to interfere with the world. So she can grant prophecy ability, but can't stop her followers from then using it. Which sometimes means that the prophecies discovered with her gift comes around and bites her in the rear.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Even Thor and Odin seem to be unclear of if it happened in the comic.

    I’m choosing to read it as the nuanced type of storytelling where these things are ambiguous, and not the ham-handed sort where prophecy is unambiguously true.
    False dichotomy, there. Prophecies can (and has been repeatedly pointed out to you, are) true in the story, without it being ham-handed. More to the point, this particular prophecy not being true, but all of the things just "happening" to work out the way they did to match it, it wouldn't be "nuanced" it would just be contrived and add no actual benefit to the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    But it did come true. Durkon names his new hammer Destruction.

    I think you have decided that you are the only person who has read the comic correctly.
    Since when did Durkon name the hammer Destruction? All he said was that he thought it was about time he brought some destruction - by using the hammer (and accessories).

    You're the only one being obtuse here.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-06-14 at 02:57 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Valencia, Spain
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Blocking the Oracle from delivering the prophecy would fall under omnipotence, though. We know the gods limit their ability to interfere with the world. So she can grant prophecy ability, but can't stop her followers from then using it. Which sometimes means that the prophecies discovered with her gift comes around and bites her in the rear.

    Grey Wolf
    But the Oracle closed shop to avoid Xykon. So they have power to deny info if they want.

    I owe Emanick 20 quatloos if the Sphinx Pox turns out to have a further story role beyond "passing commentary" - and vice versa.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    But the Oracle closed shop to avoid Xykon. So they have power to deny info if they want.
    That was the Oracle, not Tiamat.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That was the Oracle, not Tiamat.
    Yep. My headcanon is that Xykon's response to being given a prophecy he didn't want would involve a death too gruesome to contemplate. Or come back from.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-06-14 at 02:54 PM.
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Unless... she is not omniscent, neither the Oracle, and the prophecies are just as vage to them as are to the readers.
    Wait... isn’t that the starting assumption for all of us?

    Was there ever any serious consideration by any reader that anyone anywhere in the comic world knew everything that was going to happen before it happened?

  23. - Top - End - #113
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2005

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I would do that because, until we somehow invent time travel (which I believe is impossible according to the laws of physics as we understand them), causality *is* unidirectional.
    Even if that's the case in our own universe, what bearing does that have on the Order of the Stick? Are you under the impression that everything that happens in the comic proceeds in accordance with the laws of physics as we understand them? I had rather assumed that magical phenomena are exempt from those rules, and that divining the future is a magical phenomenon. Do you not share both of those assumptions?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    We can only move into the future one second at a time,
    Haven't you heard of time dilation?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    and we can't change what happened in the past.
    We can't change what will happen in the future, either. Change is things being different at different times. In order for the state of the universe at a past or future instant to change, the state of the universe at one time would have to be part of the universe at a different time. Neither last Thursday nor next Thursday can change from yesterday to tomorrow unless last Thursday or next Thursday exists yesterday and tomorrow. But how can a time exist at another time? What would that even mean? Like, this is the inherent premise of a bunch of time travel fiction, but it doesn't make any damn sense. It's like positing a scenario where it's raining in London in New York but not raining in London in Paris. New York and Paris don't each contain their own different Londons, so that's just a fine lot of nonsense, now isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    We can change what's likely to happen in the future according to the decisions we make.
    We can change what's likely to have happened in the past through our observations.

    For example: Before I flip a coin, I don't know whether it will come up heads or tails. There's a roughly 50% chance of each possibility. After I flip a coin, but before I look at it, I don't know whether it came up heads or tails. There's a roughly 50% chance of each possibility, same as before. But when I look at the coin, I can then make an inference about the past based on the present, and my probability estimates change.

    Being able to make similarly reliable inferences about the future not only doesn't break anything but is entirely normal. If I mix two mixtures together, I can predict with high confidence that they'll form a pretty homogeneous mixture after enough time has passed. But I couldn't determine the compositions of the original mixtures from the final one. What seems "off" about prophesy, probably, is that the usual direction of inference is reversed, with future behavior being inferred with an accuracy normally reserved for past behavior. That probably corresponds to a decrease in entropy, which in our universe means an even bigger increase in entropy somewhere else. But if magic is allowed to break the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics anyway, then that isn't an issue for magical prophesy.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    In any case, my argument is not that the universe is not somehow entirely deterministic, it's that, chaos theory being what it is, it isn't actually possible to make accurate future predictions even if it *is*. No matter how accurate and precise your model of the current state of the universe is, your future prediction will rapidly diverge from reality.
    And my argument is that reliable future predictions don't even require that the future be fully determined by the present. The present being partially determined by the future is sufficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    The only difference between "fantasy fiction" and "science fiction" is that the former calls magic "Magic", while the later calls magic "Technology".
    I suppose that my implied definition is pretty terrible by descriptivist standards. How about "science fantasy rather than hard science fiction", or even just "soft science fiction instead of hard science fiction"?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    That the magic tricks makes logic sense or not doesn't factors in the equation.
    There's a distinction to be drawn between at least attempting internal consistency in a story and not even trying, but I suppose that I have to concede that it's pretty much independent of genre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Here’s my thinking. There are at least two kinds of prophecy (in the same way there are at least two kinds of birds):

    Falsifiable Prophecy: a falsifiable prophecy is one where an observer can create an experiment to say “is this prophecy false”, and that experiment is guaranteed to produce a result.

    Unfalsifiable Prophecy: a prophecy that is not falsifiable. No matter what anyone does, all that can be said is “well, maybe it’s still true because of something that might happens later.”

    “When the goat turns red strikes true” is unfalsifiable. If Haley had rolled a 19 instead of a 20, it wouldn’t have proven the prophecy false. Instead, it would have just shown that the prophecy might still be true, but probably meant something else.
    I'd leave out the "can create an experiment" part. Not knowing how to bring about criteria that would falsify a prediction doesn't meant that no such criteria exist. Take the Oracle's prophesy to Haley. If she had restored her speech without looking any metaphorical gift horse in its proverbial mouth, then the prophesy would have been falsified. But of course she didn't know how to fix her aphasia; that's why she asked about it! Sometimes you have to wait for an opportunity to test a theory through observation, because creating such an opportunity is beyond your power.

    Other than that, though, I agree that falsifiability is a valid and significant distinction. And Eugene's prophesy to Roy indeed is pretty well unfalsifiable, as it's a "When X, Y" type prophesy where both X and Y are sufficiently unclear to ever be able to conclude with justified confidence "Well, that already happened". If X is sufficiently specific that one might say that it already occurred without any form of Y, or vice versa, then we can imagine observations that would show such a prediction to be incorrect. Contrast Eugene's prophesy to Roy (where both X and Y are too vague) with the Oracle's prophesy to Haley (where X is still vague and metaphorical and refers to Nale as a form of livestock, but Y is clear enough given the question she asked).

    Not all of the prophesies in the comic are unfalsifiable -- I think that you'd look pretty silly trying to spin "Xykon will be within a 1000-foor radius of Girard's Gate before Xykon is witin a 1000-foot radius of Kraagor's Gate" as unfalsifiable -- but some are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    For the sake of this discussion, which is about deterministic viewpoints, they are effectively the same as they play the same role.
    If reliable prophesy requires foreknowledge of the future and foreknowledge of the future requires determinism, then reliable prophesy implies determinism. But Dion has disputed the first premise by arguing to the effect that sufficiently vague prophesies can be virtually guaranteed to be accurate without foreknowledge. And I dispute the second premise, to the extent that "determinism" means that the future is fully determined by the present!
    Last edited by Devils_Advocate; 2019-06-14 at 03:35 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Edit: also, the death and destruction prophecy doesn’t come from the oracle, so whether or not it comes true isn’t a comment on the oracles abilities.
    Yeah, I still don’t understand why you brought it up anyway.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Durkon Thundershield returned to the Dwarven Lands. As a direct and obvious result of that, people died and a bridge got wrecked. That's... very obviously the prophecy coming true. Durkon's return home brought death and destruction.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah, I still don’t understand why you brought it up anyway.
    Because it’s a prophecy, just like “when the goat turns red strikes true”.

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Wizard_Lizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    The material plane (duh?)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    If free will is an illusion, I am happy to be fooled.
    Current characters:
    Drakirr (Blue Dragonborn Warlock)
    Alyfyldyr Hyalythki (Rock Gnome Wizard)
    Harilidir (Half-elf Bard)
    Kazaharad Akaztkl (Goliath Barbarian)
    Luft (air-genasi druid)
    And of course Lizard Wizard (Lizardfolk Sorcerer)

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    If free will is an illusion, I am happy to be fooled.
    I believe causal determinism is a requirement for free will to exist in our universe.

    Without determinism, what happens next doesn’t depend on what occurred in the past.

    In other words, without determinism, things just happen because they’re going to happen.

    It’s impossible to make meaningful choices without determinism, because your choices can’t have any impact on what happens. What happens is just whatever was going to happen, regardless of your choice.

    EDIT: obviously, this doesn’t apply to OotS-verse, where free will and determinism is free to work in other ways.

    Also, I haven’t seen evidence that anyone or anything in OotS-verse has complete foreknowledge of what will happen (which is separate from both prophecy or determinism in my mind). A few characters have a very small measure of pre-knowledge, but it seems muddled, unclear, and often not very helpful to them.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-06-14 at 10:15 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ipswich, MA, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    At the end of Back to the Future, there are two pasts, the one we are presented to at the beginning that Marty and Doc remember, that is the ‘‘original’’ past where Marty and Doc never went back in time. And then there is the ‘‘new’’ past they created where Marty’s dad punched Biff in the face, etc. This is a sample of two.
    The only differences between the two timelines are due to the actions of Doc & Marty. Meaning that Back to the Future presents a deterministic universe where people reacts to external circumstances (i.e. the world) according to internal circumstances (i.e. the self) and given the exact same set of circumstances, the exact same reactions will occur. However it is one who allows for grandfather paradoxes somehow.
    What Existential Comics asserts is not that Marty and Doc had the power to create a new timeline - it is that, merely by being able to observe the original timeline, they should have seen an entirely different series of events play out if free will actually exists. That seems absurd to me, because there is no reason to believe that Marty would have created a new past for his parents merely by being there in 1955 to watch events unfold. If he watched his parents live through the entire week without doing anything to interfere, their timelines would not be split. They would behave exactly the same way, not because they lacked free will, but because A = A. Regardless of whether behavior is predetermined or not, you cannot learn anything by observing that a group of people made the same series of choices in Scenario A as they did in... Scenario A. That's not a novel observation, it's a tautology.

    What Back to the Future does show is that people will behave differently when their circumstances change, but since more or less every theory about determinism and free will accounts for this fact, I don't find it particularly significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The notion of ‘‘libertarian free will’’, meanwhile claims that humans have the ability to make decisions regardless of the circumsrances. This seems absurd to me, as it not only posits that physical reality is at a mesoscopic scale is affected by something outside of it, but also that our decisions are not truly our own but random and that should I be presented with a train that goes where I want to go I would be as likely to go onboard as to jump under it or to strip naked and dance the carioca.
    I don't find the idea of an extramaterial soul with causal power absurd (indeed, I find it the only satisfying explanation for the existence of consciousness), so I don't personally find libertarian free will silly at all. Nor does that conception of the world imply that our decision-making process is random. But since I'm fairly certain that we're not allowed to discuss that sort of thing on these forums, we'd better stick to Back to the Future and Existential Comics.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    The way I understand it is that The Oracle has omniscience...Provided he remembers to "call ahead", as it were. His future sight isn't a passive thing, he has to consciously activate it, not necessarily in the form of a prophecy, but at least having to concentrate on it to look ahead. This is why he didn't see Roy keeping his memory: He didn't bother to check.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-06-15 at 01:20 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •