The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Fourth wall breaking, as with Haley's diamond retrieval.
    Yeah, except, in The Oracle's case, other characters actually do note his actions as unusual, suggesting it's meant to be taken literally. Plus, you didn't answer my other questions: he knew Belkar's death and his own death, down to the year, and, in the latter case, minute. He can clearly see without needing a trance: He just needs to check.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Whatever the amount of omniscience the Oracle may or may not possess, it is limited to "in world" of the OoTS world, not how Rich will draw the comic using bits and pixels.
    I’ll keep a note that this is your personal headcannon. The actual powers of the oracle seem to disagree, however. He claims to be able to actually read the comic before it’s printed, and to be able to actually see the artwork.

    But all this discussion is beyond my capacity to understand regardless. Apparently we have moved on to discussing different “amounts” of omniscience; perhaps there are different cardinalities of infinite power, like Aleph Null Omniscience, Aleph One Omniscience, etc.

    Cardinality of infinite power is not something I can comfortably imagine, so perhaps it’s time I left the thread.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-09-04 at 01:36 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Yeah, except, in The Oracle's case, other characters actually do note his actions as unusual, suggesting it's meant to be taken literally. Plus, you didn't answer my other questions: he knew Belkar's death and his own death, down to the year, and, in the latter case, minute. He can clearly see without needing a trance: He just needs to check.
    He had also run into the Order before, so he had plenty of time to do some due diligence on a group who he might encounter later. Omniscience not required.
    Powerful diviniation magic? Sure, that's required.

    Also, in the future, please be advised that I am not required to "answer your other question."
    I suggest you not try to badger me.
    I find it rude.

    @Dion: no, not head canon.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-04 at 01:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    He had also run into the Order before, so he had plenty of time to do some due diligence on a group who he might encounter later. Omniscience not required. Powerful diviniation magic? Sure. Required.
    No. He hasn't. He said some of that in his first appearance. He mentioned Belkar's forthcoming death within seconds of meeting him. And i'm not implying he's omniscient, per say. He has theoretically limitless knowledge, but he needs to check forward, like Google: he can get any knowledge, no trance required, but he needs to send a search quarry, and he usually doesn't bother, because, you know, lazy. And he obviously didn't know the Order were coming, since he got interrupted. As for your other point, that was a counter-argument. You kinda need to answer it, or you're conceding at least a little of my point. A counter-argument that only addressed the parts of your opponent;s argument you know how to rebuttal is a bad counter-argument.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-09-04 at 01:25 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Prophecy is nearly always vague. Durkon's prophecy from the Oracle wasn't "you will return to your homeland as a vampire", it was that he would return home posthumously. V's prophecy was to get ultimate power by saying the right 4 words at the right time for the wrong reasons... not that V would, in fact, say those words.

    it might be that in all possible futures, Durkon would die. In some, his body would be returned and then his clan would rise up in anger that he was exiled and died away from home, bringing death and destruction.

    I don't think that the prophecies given have made the OOTS world graven in stone. And no prophecies that I've ever read in literature have been anything but muddled. A not-uncommon reaction to prophecy is for the bad guy to say "well, if I had won, they would have said I fulfilled prophecy"

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutomatedTeller View Post
    Prophecy is nearly always vague. Durkon's prophecy from the Oracle wasn't "you will return to your homeland as a vampire", it was that he would return home posthumously. V's prophecy was to get ultimate power by saying the right 4 words at the right time for the wrong reasons... not that V would, in fact, say those words.

    it might be that in all possible futures, Durkon would die. In some, his body would be returned and then his clan would rise up in anger that he was exiled and died away from home, bringing death and destruction.

    I don't think that the prophecies given have made the OOTS world graven in stone. And no prophecies that I've ever read in literature have been anything but muddled. A not-uncommon reaction to prophecy is for the bad guy to say "well, if I had won, they would have said I fulfilled prophecy"
    The Oracle has demonstrated fairly specific knowledge of the future before, enough that he was able to set up the town of LMOBH a year in advance and note his forthcoming death to the minute. The Oracle isn't the vague promotions sort. If there's anything he doesn't know about the future, it's because he didn't bother to check. for instance, the answer to V's question of how shall I attain ultimate arcane power, by being ANYTHING OTHER THEN NO, states that, at the very least, there was no possible future where V didn't make the choice that gave them same, or, for that matter, made it for a good reason.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-09-04 at 01:31 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    No. He hasn't. He said some of that in his first appearance.
    Roy and Durkon, he'd met before.

    He mentioned Belkar's forthcoming death within seconds of meeting him. And i'm not implying he's omniscient, per say.
    1. The term is 'per se' (it's borrowed from another language)
    2. We seem to agree that the Oracle is not omniscient, or that omniscience is not a necessary assumption.
    3. Having met Roy before in company of Durkon, he can have cast a minor diviniation type of magic along the lines of
    "will this one visit again?"
    and when the answer comes back yes he casts another minor diviniation spell
    "OK, who is with him" and there you are he takes a peak at the others who will be visiting.
    No omniscience is required, just good due dliligence the practical use of divination magic. (Yes, off screen but plausible).
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-04 at 01:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Roy and Durkon, he'd met before.


    1, The term is 'per se' (it's borrowed from another language)
    And we seem to agree that the oracle is not omniscient. Good.
    I don't think we do. I'm saying that, intestinal, he is omniscient and just doesn't bother to use it. "If there's anything he doesn't know about the future, it's because he didn't bother to check". And why would a minor divination spell tell him Belkar isn't gonna live to old age? And, for that matter, he clearly knows the future without his trances: He says that he blabs about it so often, he needs a spell to ensure no one can remember it.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-09-04 at 01:35 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I don't think we do. I'm saying that, intestinal, he is omniscient and just doesn't bother to use it. "If there's anything he doesn't know about the future, it's because he didn't bother to check". And why would a minor divination spell tell him Belkar isn't gonna live to old age?
    Which takes me back to you agreeing with my point, it seems. This ability to see into the future is a function of the effort he puts into it. It is at best "limited omniscience" and better described (IMO) as prescience that is a result of the practical application of divination magic.

    Which compared to you or me, would appear (in contrast to to our limited predictive powers) to resemble omniscience.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-04 at 01:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Which takes me back to you agreeing with my point, it seems. This ability to see into the future is a function of the effort he puts into it. It is at best "limited omniscience" and better described as prescience that is a result of the practical application of divination magic.

    Which compared to you or me, would appear in contrast to resemble omniscience.
    I mean, sure, if that's what you're arguing. it's the weird stuff about him using "minor divination magic" and only being able to see in the trances, whereas I think he's able to see whenever he wants, provided he bothers to check. Thus, his knowledge of Belkar is "This Halfling seems like a jerk: I hope he dies soon...Oh look, he does! Neat".

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I mean, sure, if that's what you're arguing. it's the weird stuff about him using "minor divination magic" and only being able to see in the trances, whereas I think he's able to see whenever he wants, provided he bothers to check. Thus, his knowledge of Belkar is "This Halfling seems like a jerk: I hope he dies soon...Oh look, he does! Neat".
    Thanks for the conversation. I think our work is done here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Or maybe we could take a piece of evidence from the comics
    Self aware fantasy parody
    Self aware allows us to explain 4th wall breaking as part of the actual meta physics of Oots
    That’s why we have the whole using stories idea
    That’s why we have people literally saying a spell’s name for minutes
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    That’s why we have the whole using stories idea
    Would an example of what you are referring to be Tarqin bellowing "this is a terrible ending" as the Mechane sails off with Elan?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    As far as we can be totally sure of, the oracle's trance just designates which prophecies visitors will remember when they leave the valley.

    There is a possible explanation for all the things he knows though if he does have to trance for them: He can see his own future. Which means he knows which clients will show up before they do. Which means he knows whose futures to check before they get there.

  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    As far as we can be totally sure of, the oracle's trance just designates which prophecies visitors will remember when they leave the valley.

    There is a possible explanation for all the things he knows though if he does have to trance for them: He can see his own future. Which means he knows which clients will show up before they do. Which means he knows whose futures to check before they get there.
    Also a plausible impact of being a practitioner in divination magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Also a plausible impact of being a practitioner in divination magic.
    I don't think the Oracle practices any kind of magic--when he's resurrected after being killed by Belkar he says he'll need to get his Expert level back. His divination abilities are presumably a direct gift from his god rather than anything to do with his own abilities.

  17. - Top - End - #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I don't think the Oracle practices any kind of magic--when he's resurrected after being killed by Belkar he says he'll need to get his Expert level back. His divination abilities are presumably a direct gift from his god rather than anything to do with his own abilities.
    They're explicitly a gift from Tiamat- Belkar and Haley were there to get Roy resurrected, and the Oracle told them he wasn't any kind of caster, and couldn't do it.

    Then he had a pair of lizardfolk teleport in to raise him from the dead, and not Roy, because the Oracle doesn't like Roy.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    His divination abilities are presumably a direct gift from his god rather than anything to do with his own abilities.
    How is that not diviniation magic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    They're explicitly a gift from Tiamat- Belkar and Haley were there to get Roy resurrected, and the Oracle told them he wasn't any kind of caster, and couldn't do it.

    Then he had a pair of lizardfolk teleport in to raise him from the dead, and not Roy, because the Oracle doesn't like Roy.
    Huh.... that just made me realize:

    So I've long maintained that the green glowy thing is less the Oracle divining the answers and more a "this will be the only thing that can pass through the memory charm" effect (possibly both, but definitely the latter). However, not physically passing through the memory charm allows for memories to be retained, as we see when the Oracle dismisses Roy. However, the Oracle has to know this, since that's how he relies on his continued life; the cleric and wizard need to teleport in and out to remember the next appointment.

    So, did the Oracle really make a mistake, or did he just want to make it seem like he did?
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  20. - Top - End - #230
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Fourth wall breaks aren't consistent powers characters can recall upon whenever they want, otherwise Haley could at any time take whatever item she had previously from another strip, which would be an extremely powerful ability, and there's no reason she'd only do that once. Ultimately the Oracle reading future books was mostly just a joke. If Tiamat can literally grant an ability to recall any information from anywhere, she'd be rulling the pantheon at this point, and considering how Thor was able to remember every single one of his worshippers, it's reasonable to say Tiamat would easily be aware of everything that will ever happen. Something she is not, cause we've seen her show surprise before.
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 12:31 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Fourth wall breaks aren't consistent powers characters can recall upon whenever they want, otherwise Haley could at any time take whatever item she had previously from another strip, which would be an extremely powerful ability, and there's no reason she'd only do that once. Ultimately the Oracle reading future books was mostly just a joke. If Tiamat can literally grant an ability to recall any information from anywhere, she'd be rulling the pantheon at this point, and considering how Thor was able to remember every single one of his worshippers, it's reasonable to say Tiamat would easily be aware of everything that will ever happen. Something she is not, cause we've seen her show surprise before.
    Not if the other side has some degree of omniscience too. Odin and Rooster also seem to be prophet gods, and THREE all-knowing beings cannot co-exist without ceasing to be all-knowing.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Again, none of their actions seem to indicate that of all knowing gods. And their prophetic abilities aren't nearly as potent as the Oracle's, arguably excluding Odin if he wasn't starved from the previous worlds. Tiamat literally gambled a third of her black dragons, and it's not really a gamble if you know it's going to pay off in the end, something she clearly doesn't.
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 12:45 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Ultimately the Oracle reading future books was mostly just a joke.
    Sure. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Again, none of their actions seem to indicate that of all knowing gods. And their prophetic abilities aren't nearly as potent as the Oracle's, arguably excluding Odin if he wasn't starved from the previous worlds. Tiamat literally gambled a third of her black dragons, and it's not really a gamble if you know it's going to pay off in the end, something she clearly doesn't.
    Yes, but, if the Oracle has any blindspots regarding the future, that don't boil down to him being too lazy to check, we haven't seen it. Plus, as I said, if THREE Gods are omniscent...Then they can't be. Two "omnis" cannot co-exist

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    I think you're replying to the wrong person? I never said he was lazy, I just straight up think he doesn't know everything, and couldn't even if he wanted to

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I think you're replying to the wrong person? I never said he was lazy, I just straight up think he doesn't know everything, and couldn't even if he wanted to
    I was pointing that out as, to me, the one limit of his knowledge: He's lazy. So, i'm disagreeing. He has demonstrated no signs of having limits beyond that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    How is that not diviniation magic?
    Because magic has a very specific meaning in D&D, and it comes in the form of spells cast by clerics, druids, wizards, bards, sorcerers etc. Anything else is not magic even if it looks like it--for example, if a creature has the ability to cast something like a spell but hasn't got a spell-casting class, it will be described as having a "spell-like ability" rather than having a spell. That's my understanding of it, at any rate.

  28. - Top - End - #238
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    Supernatural abilities can be suppressed by anti magic effects
    I think you mean extraordinary abils
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    I hate internet arguments.

    Suppose we were having a discussion about how X-wings turn in space.

    First, someone points out that an airplane only “banks” in at atmosphere to use aerodynamics to change direction. It’s silly for X-wings to “bank” in space.

    Someone else will argue that an airplane can’t possibly “bank” anywhere, because banking is defined in the dictionary as making deposit or credit transactions at a financial institution, and an airplane can’t do that. If we all just read the dictionary, we would understand how stupid we sound.

    And then a third person will insist that with advances in AI, there’s no reason an X-wing can’t be autonomous being with the legal right to make financial transactions.

    And someone will explain that these advances in AI explain why an X-wings banks in turns.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-09-05 at 02:53 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

    But yeah, if Tiamat can see any moment in time, there's no reason why she would be gambling the lives of a third of her black dragons. Reminder that she didn't even knew about V's deal, something that an all knowing entity would for sure be aware of, especially when it pertains to so many of her most powerful servants being killed off. Also, the fiend has to make a promise for her that they'd kill 5 metallic dragons for each ones lost, which implies that this is a thing that isa beyond her knowledge.
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 02:56 PM.

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