Homebrew Idea: Initiative only going between 1 and 20: turn around

[Cikomyr]

So I thought of an idea that I suspect won't come into play often, but might help reward super high initiative rolls vs very low.

Effectively cap the initiative turn orders at 20. However, people who got an initiative higher than (ex: 23) would get their roll minus 20 as an initiative order, it's just that a "Turn 0" round would be played before the actual standard first round being played.

This doesn't change anything for low or average differential initiative. Ex: someone rolls 13 vs 27. The turn would look like this:

Turn 0: Ini 7 (vs Turn 1: Ini 27)
Turn 1: Ini 13 (vs Turn 1: Ini 13)
Turn 1: Ini 7 (vs turn 2: Ini 27)

The point of this homebrew mechanic is to allow someone to "lap" their opponent if they had over 20+ on their initiative order. So let's say the same happens above, but instead of a 13, the opponent got a 3

New mechanic:
Turn 0: Ini 7
Turn 1: Ini 7
Turn 1: Ini 3

As opposed to just go from 27 to 3.

Everything related to lair action would never happen on Turn 0, only on initiative 20 of turn 1.

I don't think it's even possible, but if someone manage to have 40+ initiative, then there would be a "turn - 1"

Comments?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Cool idea, don't do it. Dexterity is already a supremely valuable stat and this sort of incentive to play a Dex character would only further decrease the reasons to play a Str based character. It could also present some very difficult to manage balance problems when a lucky roll could cause a very powerful monster to take multiple turns in the first round of combat.

There would also be some limitations that you might want to implement, here's a small list of potential problems:
-War Wizard, Int to Initiative
-Gloom Stalker, Wis to Initiative
-Alert, +5 to Initiative
-Jack of All Trades, Half Proficiency to Initiative
-Remarkable Athlete, Half Proficiency to Initiative
-Thief's Reflexes, take a second turn in the first round of combat

Basically, it's too random for my tastes and it wouldn't be impossible to make a character designed to almost always take two turns in combat. Having a high enough initiative bonus to regularly go first and never go last is enough of a reward, it's served my +13 Initiative Blood Hunter well.

[DeTess]

This makes having a high initiative incredibly valuable, to the point that it might be the only thing worth optimizing for. I did some math awhile ago around the damage output of martials and this was mostly fairly balanced. If a dexterity build could reliably get a second turn(whereas the strength builds most likely can't), that'd skew things massively in their favor. Even with all else being equal, a dex build would get a 25% damage boost just by being a dex build.

There are systems that use the system you described here (shadowrun 5th edition, for example), and generally its something that's at the core of the combat system and one of the key optimization pillars, not something that some combat characters get and others don't.

edit: if you absolutely want to reward high initiative characters, maybe give them some sort of legendary action or an extra reaction if they get a 20+ initiative.

[Cikomyr]

Even with some bonuses stacking, I don't see how someone can get "consistently" an additional turn. It's still depends on the opponents rolling low and you rolling high. Just have the occasional high-ini opponents if your players start abusing it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Even with some bonuses stacking, I don't see how someone can get "consistently" an additional turn. It's still depends on the opponents rolling low and you rolling high. Just have the occasional high-ini opponents if your players start abusing it.

If I'm reading into this, you're saying that the character rolling over 20 has to not only roll over 20 but their initiative-20 has to beat all enemy initiatives?

For example: Player encounters 1 enemy, Player rolls 27 initiative, enemy rolls 1 (for the sake of simplicity)
-Player turn (27 initiative)
-Player turn (7 Initiative)
-Enemy turn (1 Initiative)

This doesn't change my opinion, in fact it only further makes me dislike the idea that a set of bad dice rolls can swing a combat encounter heavily in one sides favor for no good reason.

[Cikomyr]

If I'm reading into this, you're saying that the character rolling over 20 has to not only roll over 20 but their initiative-20 has to beat all enemy initiatives?

For example: Player encounters 1 enemy, Player rolls 27 initiative, enemy rolls 1 (for the sake of simplicity)
-Player turn (27 initiative)
-Player turn (7 Initiative)
-Enemy turn (1 Initiative)

This doesn't change my opinion, in fact it only further makes me dislike the idea that a set of bad dice rolls can swing a combat encounter heavily in one sides favor for no good reason.

Not all enemies. Just those he beats by more than 20.

[Lunali]

It seems like some of the people here are reading it as high initiative giving you an extra turn every round, I'm reading it as basically a surprise round for high initiative.

I'm not a fan of this idea, I consider the entire range of initiative to be effectively the span of about half a second. Even if you're slow to react, you should still be able to act during the turn.

[No brains]

I have to remember my phrasing to fit this edition:

Would creatures on 'turn 0' count as surprised? If so, this could buff assassin rogues. Reliable surprise can be difficult to stage, but surprising people with 'gotta go fast' could even the odds.

Also, would this only apply for the first turn at the start of combat (again, as surprise), or would this apply every turn like the extra turns some video rpgs use?

[Frozenstep]

So basically make dex even a better stat, make alert an even better feat, potentially have PC's get knocked out before they're allowed to take any action because an enemy got two turns on them before they got their first turn even without surprise...I'm not liking it.

[Cikomyr]

I have to remember my phrasing to fit this edition:

Would creatures on 'turn 0' count as surprised? If so, this could buff assassin rogues. Reliable surprise can be difficult to stage, but surprising people with 'gotta go fast' could even the odds.

Also, would this only apply for the first turn at the start of combat (again, as surprise), or would this apply every turn like the extra turns some video rpgs use?

Only first turn of combat.

It wouldn't be a "surprise round". It's merely meant to represent someone's incredible reaction time, not strategic/tactical surprise.

The assassin question is a good one. Since the wording is:

"In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit." I would guess it depends on the situation. Someone can be "not surprised" and simply have a slow reaction. I wouldn't give this bonus to an assassin who simply won initiative - he already has his automated advantage-.

[CorporateSlave]

So I thought of an idea that I suspect won't come into play often, but might help reward super high initiative rolls vs very low.

Comments?

I guess I'm just wondering why you feel this needs "rewarding" beyond "they get to go first"? Getting to go first is pretty huge all by itself, even if you're not an Assassin or anything.

[Lunali]

Only first turn of combat.

It wouldn't be a "surprise round". It's merely meant to represent someone's incredible reaction time, not strategic/tactical surprise.

The assassin question is a good one. Since the wording is:

"In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit." I would guess it depends on the situation. Someone can be "not surprised" and simply have a slow reaction. I wouldn't give this bonus to an assassin who simply won initiative - he already has his automated advantage-.

So how would you mix it with a surprise situation. If the assassin won initiative by enough, they could get two turns in while their enemy is still surprised, then a third before they could actually act.

[Cikomyr]

I guess I'm just wondering why you feel this needs "rewarding" beyond "they get to go first"? Getting to go first is pretty huge all by itself, even if you're not an Assassin or anything.

If you just beat someone, you get to go first.
If you utterly crush someone, you get to go a second time.

If two peoples are relatively fast individuals, then someone just gets to go first.

So how would you mix it with a surprise situation. If the assassin won initiative by enough, they could get two turns in while their enemy is still surprised, then a third before they could actually act.

Well.. The same way I'd do it the way the rules do it right now :

- Surprise round
- Roll initiative
- Start initiative order.

Surprise round is literally the free round the surprises get over the surprised. Then it's standard initiative. I just need to reconfirm how a surprise round would work overall.

[CorporateSlave]

Well.. The same way I'd do it the way the rules do it right now :

- Surprise round
- Roll initiative
- Start initiative order.

Surprise round is literally the free round the surprises get over the surprised. Then it's standard initiative. I just need to reconfirm how a surprise round would work overall.

There is no longer a Surprise Round in 5e FYI. It's all standard initiative, just with any Surprised creatures suffering the Surprised condition until after their turn. (This is mechanically significant, as it means Initiative is rolled before even the non-Surprised get to go - so if certainly PC's need to go before others - say to cast a buff spell or move into position - the Ready Action will need to be used if Initiative is out of desired order. Also, with Surprised being a condition, it makes it possible that some parties on each side may be Surprised and others not, depending on circumstances.)


Also: I don't really see a problem with a high initiative "only" getting to go once before a low rolling enemy. Besides, a very low rolling enemy is already going to be severely punished since likely all the other PC's even with their mediocre initiative rolls will get to go before them, possibly pre-empting the whole combat before that Initiative 3 slog gets to move.

Rolling really low on initiative is a severe handicap, I've never even begun to think it somehow needs to be further kneecapped!

[LtPowers]

Well.. The same way I'd do it the way the rules do it right now :

- Surprise round
- Roll initiative
- Start initiative order.

That is not how the rules handle surprise right now. If you're looking to make changes, you should thoroughly familiarize yourself with the current rules before making changes.

My concern is Initiative-optimizers. Even a fairly basic Bard 4/Swashbuckler 8 can be expected to have a +15 to initiative (+4 CHA, +4 DEX, +2 Jack of All trades, +5 Alert). Add another 1 (ASI) if Human, and another +1d4 for Guidance if the character knows combat is coming. That much initiative will "lap" other combatants more often than not.


Powers &8^]

[Dork_Forge]

I don't really see why this is needed, if anything it just adds more weight to high initiative mod players besides getting to go first. Something to consider is that there's a way to add the following to initiative:
-Charisma
-Wisdom
-Intelligence
-Half your proficiency bonus (both Bard and Champion)
-A flat +5 from a feat
-Dex up to +5

Not to mention the ways to get advantage on initiative as well. Adding more of a reward to a high initiative beyond going first can not only be very swingy but also very unbalanced.

[Kane0]

This may be of interest to you.

Anyways, this seriously ratchets up the rocket-tag. This is rewarding a high initiative, which is itself already an advantage. If that's the kind of game you want then by all means, but be very aware what kind of behaviour it will incentivise in your players.

[Blood of Gaea]

So what you're saying is you want all your players to pick a +Initiative class, have 14 or higher Dex, and take the Alert feat? Because that's what this change is doing.

[Cikomyr]

So what you're saying is you want all your players to pick a +Initiative class, have 14 or higher Dex, and take the Alert feat? Because that's what this change is doing.

Well, my players aren't optimization - obsessed power gamers, so no that won't happen.

[Mork]

in the powergaming wheelhouse. Matt Mercer gunslinger adds profiency to initiative at level 7. Add 11 levels of (swashbuckler) rogue, and you can take 10 at initiative. Alwayws getting a minium off 21 (with DEX 20).

But more in response to OP, maybe instead of an extra turn give people who roll higher than 20, a free advantage on their first attack of that round, you attack so fast that your opponent has no time to put up good defences. You retain a bonus for rolling high, but it is not so intense.

If you want to keep the extra attack, maybe increase the DC for the extra round to a 23/25? that way it's probably only a small bonus to the one player of your group who choose alert or someone who rolls a nat 20 and is already fast.

[MoiMagnus]

I actually played with this rule. That was no intended, 5e was not the only RPG book I was reading when DMing my first 5e campaign, and I mixed the different rules in a weird way. (I can't even understand how I managed to "find" this rule in my memory). Note that the "surprise round" was round 0 for us, so if you had more than 20, you were playing during the surprise round.

Since we started playing with it, we kept it for the whole campaign. But I've not used it after that.

It works reasonably well. But unless you also add effects that change initiative (like attacks that reduce ennemy's initiative or something like that), it is a complex rule for not that much. It buff initiative, which doesn't really need a buff. And you can ends up with very weird stuff with surprise attack, for example:

Enemy try to snipe a PC. It succeed its discretion check, so is undetected before shooting. Rolling for initiative, the enemy roll 4, the PC roll 25. So the PC plays during the surprise round at initiative 5, so before the enemy, and has absolutely no idea why he just rolled initiative since the enemy didn't yet shoot, so he don't even know where are the enemies.

TLDR: More complex than the base rule, buff something which is already strong, so clearly not a "good" idea. But from experience, it didn't have enough bad consequences to really be a "really bad" idea.

[Cikomyr]

in the powergaming wheelhouse. Matt Mercer gunslinger adds profiency to initiative at level 7. Add 11 levels of (swashbuckler) rogue, and you can take 10 at initiative. Alwayws getting a minium off 21 (with DEX 20).

But more in response to OP, maybe instead of an extra turn give people who roll higher than 20, a free advantage on their first attack of that round, you attack so fast that your opponent has no time to put up good defences. You retain a bonus for rolling high, but it is not so intense.

If you want to keep the extra attack, maybe increase the DC for the extra round to a 23/25? that way it's probably only a small bonus to the one player of your group who choose alert or someone who rolls a nat 20 and is already fast.

A 21 of initiative would mean you go twice before anyone who rolled a 1 or less.

That's not the most reliable of super advantage. Again, you don't get to go twice because you beat a set DC. You get to go twice before anyone you beat by 20 or more.

[Blood of Gaea]

Well, my players aren't optimization - obsessed power gamers, so no that won't happen.

My point is less that your players will optimize the hell out of it, and more than you're buffing the already strong initiative to allow extra turns, but only if you roll very high. This incentivises optimization for Intiative, more than it already is.

Besides, Theif Rogues already get a mechanic a bit like this, and it kind of spits on them.