OOTS #1167 - The Discussion Thread

[Leftour]

I'm loving this, but wondering what Xykon is up to while all this vampy action is going on.

Checking the next door is a reasonable guess.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know about that. I would not be that blue sword of his might cut smoke clouds as effectively as it cuts undead flesh.

Grey Wolf

Granted but it doesn’t seem to have a ranged attack while this room as a high roof.
Then again maybe she prepared the spell twice just for this kind of occasion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Granted but it doesn’t seem to have a ranged attack while this room as a high roof.

The thing about that kind of move is that it is effectively allowing yourself to be taken out of the fight. Right now, vampire is tanking (which regenerating creatures are good at, in general) and actively assisting the fight. If they float to the ceiling and stay there, that is one less foe for the invaders to contend with.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, because plot, then?

The correct thing to do would seem to be for the orange and blue barriers to be nearly consecutive, so there's no room for fooling around.

This is a self-aware parody universe. The room was probably constructed entirely for the purpose of having a dramatic battle to save the Council here.

[Worldsong]

Couldn't you have two blue barriers, one immediately in front of the orange barrier and one a bit further out? That way you'd be able to protect the council members while at the same time giving the bodyguards the opportunity to do their job.

[Jay R]

So, what do you think that plane is?

It appears to be an inclined plane.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Couldn't you have two blue barriers, one immediately in front of the orange barrier and one a bit further out? That way you'd be able to protect the council members while at the same time giving the bodyguards the opportunity to do their job.

That might be too expensive. Or would turn the bodyguards to stone if they did try to do their jobs. These barriers aren't intelligent, they don't make judgement. I'm assuming that when they say "it turns you to stone if you break dwarven law", it is not going to be capable of subtleties like "killing in defence of my employer". It might turn you to stone for attacking another dwarf, full stop.

But we'll see. We haven't really seen how the Blue barrier operates, so it is hard to understand what it's actual effects are and what triggers them. But if it is designed to force dwarves to talk to one another instead of resorting to violence, I would imagine that they do NOT want their bodyguards in it.

Grey Wolf

[thorr-kan]

Man.

Blue sword guy didn’t exactly cover himself in glory there. Whiffed on what I guess was every attack of a full attack and then failed his savings throw and got tossed out of the fight.

No, he got one hit in.

Panel 1, not cuts on vampire. Panel 3, one cut on vampire's face. Panel 11, crosshatch cut's from Minrah's attacks.

[Jasdoif]

So, what do you think that plane is? The layer Malbolge in the Nine Hells? Gehenna? Somewhere in Hades?

I was looking through the plane descriptions in the DMG the other month, and I think it was one of the layers of Gehenna that was described with infinite 45-degree mountains where someone could fall endlessly/eternally/some-other-adverb-implying-"don't-even-try-measuring-the-time". Don't have access to books to double-check now, though....

[Snails]

Couldn't you have two blue barriers, one immediately in front of the orange barrier and one a bit further out? That way you'd be able to protect the council members while at the same time giving the bodyguards the opportunity to do their job.

As been discussed thoroughly in previous strip threads, yes, the configuration is clearly less than optimal, and even small changes might make a big difference.

My best guess is that the dwarves who designed the thing were not stupid, but improved the defenses incrementally in a manner that made enough sense at the time, but the end result seems to have unnecessary possible holes when looked as a larger system. Unfortunately the best "fixes" are not to change one small thing, but go back in time and start over with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.

[Frozenstep]

Minrah wasn't kidding when she had a hammer and knew how to swing it. She's been putting in great work with it. Has she even missed once with that thing?

[Fyraltari]

The thing about that kind of move is that it is effectively allowing yourself to be taken out of the fight. Right now, vampire is tanking (which regenerating creatures are good at, in general) and actively assisting the fight. If they float to the ceiling and stay there, that is one less foe for the invaders to contend with.

Grey Wolf

I mean, they don't need to fight. All they have to do is retreat behind the blue barrier. Taking the heroes out is more like a bonus at this point. Durkon* had history with them, and the Exaargh may want revenge on the Order for his humiliation on the Mechane but what is she getting out of this fight? Is sheer sadism worth blowing up the bridge you'll need to cross if you actually win? That's counter-intuitive.

[Ruck]

As Gonthor theorized, it could be because the designers thought only outsiders would ever attack them, or that the weakness was left on purpose so that the people in charge might be able to manipulate things unseen.

Yes, I remember the theorizing; I'd like to know definitely what the designers actually plotted or intended.

[zimmerwald1915]

Dammit! We were so close to finding out what that guy was!!

Trying to figure that out is beside the point of the story and everyone should stop. Is probably the point that is being made by the strip.

[Cazero]

Come on, Giant. That's not how Sisyphus works and you probably know it.

[Resileaf]

Yes, I remember the theorizing; I'd like to know definitely what the designers actually plotted or intended.

I think the point is that it's not important what they plotted or intended. It's happened thousands of years ago and it's just going to make people say "Well they should have done..."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, they don't need to fight. All they have to do is retreat behind the blue barrier.

The blue barrier only stones you if you break dwarven law. We don't know what that means precisely, at this time. But if dwarven law allows non-harming cleric spells, letting them in could easily mean that their domination scheme breaks down to a couple of well-placed spells.

At this time, I see no reason to assume that retreating behind the blue barrier is a fool-proof move on their part.

I think the point is that it's not important what they plotted or intended. It's happened thousands of years ago and it's just going to make people say "Well they should have done..."

This, absolutely. We don't know what constraints they were under when they built it they way they did. Was their budget stretched to the limit? Did it get built in phases? Was there competing factions? We don't know, they story is not about to tell us, and we are free to make whatever assumptions we want. And as always, one should prioritise the assumptions that make the story make sense.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I think the point is that it's not important what they plotted or intended. It's happened thousands of years ago and it's just going to make people say "Well they should have done..."

Hence why I said "Indeed, I find it rather unlikely" we will find out.

[Psyren]

I was looking through the plane descriptions in the DMG the other month, and I think it was one of the layers of Gehenna that was described with infinite 45-degree mountains where someone could fall endlessly/eternally/some-other-adverb-implying-"don't-even-try-measuring-the-time". Don't have access to books to double-check now, though....

Good memory - Gehenna does indeed contain endless 45 degree angle slopes.

Trying to figure that out is beside the point of the story and everyone should stop. Is probably the point that is being made by the strip.

I mean sure, that's obviously the joke - yeeting the guy anticlimactically out of the story just as he's about to reveal his power source, or get into a fight that could yield valuable empirical data even if he died immediately.

Doesn't mean I can't be salty about it

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Yes, I remember the theorizing; I'd like to know definitely what the designers actually plotted or intended.

I bet it was Odin's high priest at the time. Odin set up everything about this Hel thing. I wouldn't be surprised if he gave a prophecy about what the designs of the Council Of Clans barriers should be.

Also, surprising for "doesn't-have-a-name" to be 13th level. I bet Exarrgh is at least one spell level higher.

[Fyraltari]

The blue barrier only stones you if you break dwarven law. We don't know what that means precisely, at this time. But if dwarven law allows non-harming cleric spells, letting them in could easily mean that their domination scheme breaks down to a couple of well-placed spells.

At this time, I see no reason to assume that retreating behind the blue barrier is a fool-proof move on their part.

Grey Wolf

I had assumed misting protected against healing spells since Durkon didn't use any when Malack misted out. Was I wrong?

[zimmerwald1915]

Doesn't mean I can't be salty about it

Yeah it does. If you're salty about it, you're reading the story wrong.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I had assumed misting protected against healing spells since Durkon didn't use any when Malack misted out. Was I wrong?

No idea, D20 SRD is blocked for me. Also not sure how that is relevant? I doubt that the blue energy swords run on healing energy?

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

That might be too expensive. Or would turn the bodyguards to stone if they did try to do their jobs. These barriers aren't intelligent, they don't make judgement. I'm assuming that when they say "it turns you to stone if you break dwarven law", it is not going to be capable of subtleties like "killing in defence of my employer". It might turn you to stone for attacking another dwarf, full stop.

But we'll see. We haven't really seen how the Blue barrier operates, so it is hard to understand what it's actual effects are and what triggers them. But if it is designed to force dwarves to talk to one another instead of resorting to violence, I would imagine that they do NOT want their bodyguards in it.

Grey Wolf

Wait, I thought that the blue barrier dispelled and the orange barrier petrified.

The idea was that with one blue barrier right in front of the orange barrier and another blue barrier a bit further out you'd have a space in which bodyguards can do the violence against invaders who just got their buffs removed while also adding another layer of defence against magic compulsion before the actual council area.

Although granted it is pretty likely that two blue barriers might just have been too expensive for them.

[kenlund]

Poor guy!
When I play D&D, I hate it when my character has been plane shifted away and misses a fight. I prefer to just be killed outright.

Wow, dying and coming back has been a huge confidence boost for Minrah!

Where's Hilgya btw? Having a cleric of her level in that fight would make a huge difference. She definitely seems a lot less committed since she killed Durkon.

[hamishspence]

Come on, Giant. That's not how Sisyphus works and you probably know it.

It is, however, how both Malbolge and Gehenna work, so...

[Fyraltari]

No idea, D20 SRD is blocked for me. Also not sure how that is relevant? I doubt that the blue energy swords run on healing energy?

Grey Wolf

I'm assuming the roofs stay level from Middle to Inner Chamber. It would certainly be novel architecture to have a lower roof at the center of your building than at the exterior.

EDIT: Anyway we know from the Orange Barrier that vampire dwarves count as dwarves as far as magic is concerned and I am confident dwarven laws forbid dwarves to it one another with a sword evn one made of --

[ottdmk]

My first thought was that the blue sword guy was an Incarnate or something similar. Could be a Soulborn, I suppose, but RAW Soulborns can't make weapons out of Incarnum (which I've always thought is kinda stupid.)

Loving the action stuff though. Double sap sneak attack, hee!

[RyanW1019]

I was looking through the plane descriptions in the DMG the other month, and I think it was one of the layers of Gehenna that was described with infinite 45-degree mountains where someone could fall endlessly/eternally/some-other-adverb-implying-"don't-even-try-measuring-the-time". Don't have access to books to double-check now, though....

I think this is right. That's the one where the General (most powerful yugoloth) has the moving city that crawls on a bunch of mechanical legs.

[Mightymosy]

I am surprised by how often Plane Shift is used offensively in this comic. Is this intended by design? I assumed it would be more of a travel spell or defensive spell. How is real play experience: is offensive Plane Shift much of a thing?