Total War

[Anteros]

Some other things I've been wondering, just idly:

Anyone use the Chinese language dialogue with subtitles instead of the English version? Did you find it enhanced your experience or made it more immersive? I thought it was a nice touch in Shogun II, but at the same time I did struggle a bit to keep up since apart from the subtitled pre-battle speeches I didn't understand what the characters on the map were saying, and it's something that got dropped in Fall of the Samurai, but Three Kingdoms gives you the choice, and I'm wondering if I should take it.

Second, an expansion of the retinues question I asked earlier, that guide I found doesn't discuss the "hybrid" classes that are exclusive to the Yellow Turbans (Healer, Veteran and Scholar), and I'm sort of wondering what each class is good at recruiting and how to build their retinues to make a Yellow Turban army.

I found the Chinese voices to be good, but I kept missing information during battles because I simply didn't have time to read the subtitles, and there's a few screens where the subtitles don't pop up (or at least I didn't see them). The English voices are actually very good as well, so I ended up going back to them.

I can't speak to the Yellow Turban classes because I haven't bought the DLC.

[NatureKing]

I understand all that, but it doesn't excuse stuff like having the same reform tree routes or troop compositions be optimal no matter what situation you're in. The balance just isn't great. Things like military supply or food reforms are largely worthless since it's almost impossible to run out of them anyway. Meanwhile, income reforms or ones that increase army effectiveness are universally better. The 10% bonus to replenishment is so much better than everything else on the tech tree that the only time I can imagine not making a mad dash to get it first would be in some sort of pacifist run. I'm not expecting Lui Bei's army of Orcs to face off against a pack of dragons, I'd just like for certain playstyles to not be a trillion times better than others.

Also the city building system is so pointless that I straight up don't bother with it past making sure I have enough food. Any of the income buildings are so expensive to build and fully upgrade that they would take well over 100 turns to repay their investment, and by then the game is decided. It's so much better to put your money into making an army and expanding for income than by building that it's ridiculous. It's actually completely game losing to try to upgrade your cities past a certain point on the harder difficulties. I upgrade the important or vulnerable ones to a small city just to get the wall for sieges and then never touch them again. Corruption is supposed to combat this gameplay, but by late game you're so flush with cash from military victories that it doesn't matter anyway.

Maybe everyone is already aware of all these problems, but I'm a newbie to the series. I like the game a lot, but it's just frustrating that the majority of the strategic options the game gives you are largely pointless.

Most improvements to the game come with mods. Give it a few weeks once the Steam Workshop is released, and difficulty mods, which range from arbitrarily challenging, to just making various options like Military Supply actually relevant in gameplay.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've started a campaign as Cao Cao and it's been going okay so far, with two and a half commanderies under my control and my father avenged, plus formed a coalition with Yuan Shao and Liu Bei, but now I'm a bit concerned.

My next mission is to secure and rebuild Luoyang, but I'm concerned that'll set off a firestorm I can't control, since Yuan Shu has captured it, and he's got at least one substantial army passing through my lands due to a military access treaty I signed with him early on so I didn't antagonize him too early and could focus on my eastern opponents. Have I painted myself into a corner here?

Plus, the game asked me to lower the difficulty, and I'm not sure what to think about that. I've always prided myself on being able to play Normal difficulty like a big boy...

[Anteros]

The missions are just fun little things to do if you want to try following history. The bonus from them is typically small enough not to matter. You should never put yourself in a bad situation to complete a mission unless you just want to roleplay.

[NatureKing]

The missions are just fun little things to do if you want to try following history. The bonus from them is typically small enough not to matter. You should never put yourself in a bad situation to complete a mission unless you just want to roleplay.

"Not playing optimally is something you should never do".

Why would you not want to put yourself in a difficult fight? After you've painted the map once or twice, challenge games like "This is Total War" challenge from Rome 2, or by following the historical missions, and not teleporting in Total War: Warhammer 2, and by following the Chapter Objectives are actually pretty fun ways of playing the game.

[Resileaf]

"Not playing optimally is something you should never do".

Why would you not want to put yourself in a difficult fight? After you've painted the map once or twice, challenge games like "This is Total War" challenge from Rome 2, or by following the historical missions, and not teleporting in Total War: Warhammer 2, and by following the Chapter Objectives are actually pretty fun ways of playing the game.

Yeah, I find that I have more fun playing the game the way they're asking me to, if that makes sense. Completing every secondary objective makes for a fun 'historical' challenge.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's my reasoning too, especially nowadays as I feel I've generally gotten better at TW games over time. I'm just concerned that if I go to war with Yuan Shu, I'll bite off more than I can chew, since I only have one 3-retinue full stack army consisting of Cao Cao and the Xiahou boys. I'm not sure when Sima Yi or any of Wei's other famous dudes are gonna show up. And I also didn't realize your army could only have up to 3 retinues in it. Or can you add more heroes if their retinues have less than 6 units?

On the other hand, I DO have a spy in Yuan Shu's court...

[Resileaf]

That's my reasoning too, especially nowadays as I feel I've generally gotten better at TW games over time. I'm just concerned that if I go to war with Yuan Shu, I'll bite off more than I can chew, since I only have one 3-retinue full stack army consisting of Cao Cao and the Xiahou boys. I'm not sure when Sima Yi or any of Wei's other famous dudes are gonna show up. And I also didn't realize your army could only have up to 3 retinues in it. Or can you add more heroes if their retinues have less than 6 units?

On the other hand, I DO have a spy in Yuan Shu's court...

Well, my suggestion would be to play the political game. See who isn't happy with Yuan Shu's rule and slowly build a coalition against him. Build some allies that can give him trouble. Cause unrest. Bleed him white from the shadows, then strike when he's too weak to fight back.

[NatureKing]

That's my reasoning too, especially nowadays as I feel I've generally gotten better at TW games over time. I'm just concerned that if I go to war with Yuan Shu, I'll bite off more than I can chew, since I only have one 3-retinue full stack army consisting of Cao Cao and the Xiahou boys. I'm not sure when Sima Yi or any of Wei's other famous dudes are gonna show up. And I also didn't realize your army could only have up to 3 retinues in it. Or can you add more heroes if their retinues have less than 6 units?

On the other hand, I DO have a spy in Yuan Shu's court...

Cao Cao's shtick is to get people attacking another, and building rapport by spending his Unique Resource, whatever that's called. Do that. Get him enemies on the far side of the Kingdom. Break up relationships with his own factions. Make people at war with you like you. Find ways of stacking Casualty Replenishment, and abuse the Xiahou's. They're pretty broken (although not Zhao Yun/Lu Bu levels), but can rip the core out of most armies.

[Anteros]

"Not playing optimally is something you should never do".

Why would you not want to put yourself in a difficult fight? After you've painted the map once or twice, challenge games like "This is Total War" challenge from Rome 2, or by following the historical missions, and not teleporting in Total War: Warhammer 2, and by following the Chapter Objectives are actually pretty fun ways of playing the game.

Well, if someone posts asking for advice I'm not going to intentionally give bad advice on the assumption that they actually want me to make their game harder.

[NatureKing]

Well, if someone posts asking for advice I'm not going to intentionally give bad advice on the assumption that they actually want me to make their game harder.

'don't play the game you want to play' is hardly advice mate.

[Anteros]

'don't play the game you want to play' is hardly advice mate.

It's a good thing I didn't say that then isn't it? I literally said the bonuses aren't worth putting yourself in a bad situation unless you just want to.

[NatureKing]

Replace missions with This Is Total War. And you tell me to stop declaring war on everyone. Is that useful advice? Not really. Telling someone playing missions to not play missions is pretty bad advise.

[Anteros]

Replace missions with This Is Total War. And you tell me to stop declaring war on everyone. Is that useful advice? Not really. Telling someone playing missions to not play missions is pretty bad advise.

Well if you made a post saying "I don't know if it's a good idea to declare war on everyone at once, what do you guys think I should do" then I would feel justified in telling you it's a bad idea. If you made a post saying "man, I love declaring war on everyone" I wouldn't say anything.

I suppose it's possible I misunderstood the point of the original post though.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That suggestion by the game to lower the difficulty got me wondering if I should start the campaign over or something. Did the game think I wasn't conquering fast enough or something? I do admit I had some idle turns where I was waiting for a building to get built or to have enough money to spend on something, but I didn't think I was doing bad enough that I needed to play on Easy. I've always had trouble with this in TW games: unless I've got an Opening Moves guide to basically walk me through the first ten or so turns, which generally encourage a risky, aggressive start to build some breathing room in the early game, I tend to be the kind of player who hunkers down and waits to have enough money to afford full-stack armies that can auto-resolve safely. Am I doing something wrong here?

[Resileaf]

At what point do they even advise you to lower the difficulty? Is it after battle? Do they just say it randomly?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think it was at the start of a new turn about maybe 15 turns in?

[Resileaf]

Seems like a weird place to tell you to lower the difficulty. I wouldn't put much stock on it. You play the difficulty you want. Unless you're actively losing, it really doesn't matter where you're at.

[Anteros]

Idle turns are just part of the game. Sometimes you need to muster units or wait for money or whatever. I wouldn't put much stock into that notification either.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see. Considering there seems to be a hard limit of 3 retinues per army, how do you like to build your armies? What hero/general types go well together (apart from Strategists, whom you should HAVE IN EVERY ARMY AND I LOVE THEM!)?

[Anteros]

All of the classes seem situationally useful, but Sentinels and Strategists seem to be the most objectively overpowered classes.

[Inarius]

Obviously you'll want a strategist if you can get one for an army, though at least early on you really want to make sure personalities match up.

You'll also want someone for duels, a Sentinel or Champion both fill that role fairly well. Sentinels tend to get stronger over the course of a fight while champions can be really bursty. Champions also really benefit from a strategist with the cooldown passive nearby since it affects targets in duels. Being able to spam binding fury every 20s will end a duel fairly quickly even if you don't have a great weapon. I'd recommend using your duelist to counteract enemy Vanguards as a priority, then Commanders, and leave Champions and Sentinels for last.

For the last role I'd recommend either Vanguard or Commander. Commanders are the defensive option, they get activated abilities that give 100% evasion to ranged and another that gives 100% evasion to melee so they can really ramp up the toughness of your army. Vanguards are offensive machines and they have some devastating aoe abilties that will wreck an enemies frontline. Theyre also both cavalry focused so youll have good options for cavalry to flank your opponents.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see...I think I get why that guide recommended Commanders and Sentinels take archers in their retinue now: it's treating them as a standalone force and not assuming that they have a Strategist with them (especially since they have more defensive-focused abilities to protect those archers along with Fire Arrows). So if I have one, instead of three archers and three melee infantry or cavalry, I can have the three melee infantry AND three melee cavalry, while my strategist has all the archers.

Possibly silly question, but does the Champion's "Spearmen Armor" ability affect units with other polearms like ji or glaives? Or is does it affect ONLY spearmen? Just wondering if I can mix it up with those polearms in a Champion's retinue or if I should focus exclusively on the basic spear?

[Anteros]

I see...I think I get why that guide recommended Commanders and Sentinels take archers in their retinue now: it's treating them as a standalone force and not assuming that they have a Strategist with them (especially since they have more defensive-focused abilities to protect those archers along with Fire Arrows). So if I have one, instead of three archers and three melee infantry or cavalry, I can have the three melee infantry AND three melee cavalry, while my strategist has all the archers.

Possibly silly question, but does the Champion's "Spearmen Armor" ability affect units with other polearms like ji or glaives? Or is does it affect ONLY spearmen? Just wondering if I can mix it up with those polearms in a Champion's retinue or if I should focus exclusively on the basic spear?

I don't optimize enough to know, but it should be fairly easy to check. Just recruit a unit on a general with that skill and see if their armor is higher than normal.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

People burn the beanstalk to boil beans,
filtering them to extract juice.
The beanstalks were burnt under the cauldron,
and the beans in the cauldron wailed:
"We were originally grown from the same root;
Why should we hound each other to death with such impatience?"

The first Chapter Pack DLC for Total War: Three Kingdoms, Eight Princes, has been announced and will be released on August 8th! It follows the War of the Eight Princes, as Sima Yi's kin tore the newly founded Jin Dynasty he'd made apart. Really like the trailer (that poem up there is the lyrics to the background song), it really captures the sense of grief and violence that will destroy this family and consume China!

[Leecros]

The first Chapter Pack DLC for Total War: Three Kingdoms, Eight Princes, has been announced and will be released on August 8th! It follows the War of the Eight Princes, as Sima Yi's kin tore the newly founded Jin Dynasty he'd made apart. Really like the trailer (that poem up there is the lyrics to the background song), it really captures the sense of grief and violence that will destroy this family and consume China!

I'd be lying if i said that I wasn't disappointed that the first DLC for Three Kingdoms: Total War involve a campaign story that has very little to nothing to do with the Three Kingdoms storyline. I'd rather have had more factions, more story chapters within the Three Kingdoms period, and things like that...


I'll still buy it and it'll probably still be fun, but it really feels like aiming for the bullseye and throwing the dart out the window beside the dart board.

[Resileaf]

I'd be lying if i said that I wasn't disappointed that the first DLC for Three Kingdoms: Total War involve a campaign story that has very little to nothing to do with the Three Kingdoms storyline. I'd rather have had more factions, more story chapters within the Three Kingdoms period, and things like that...


I'll still buy it and it'll probably still be fun, but it really feels like aiming for the bullseye and throwing the dart out the window beside the dart board.

Eeh, can't really say it has nothing to do with it, it's the direct ending of the three kingdoms era.

[Leecros]

Eeh, can't really say it has nothing to do with it, it's the direct ending of the three kingdoms era.

The Three Kingdoms period ended with the establishment of Jin. Going into Jin's politics and problems near their end is getting into a whole other chaotic mess between the fall of the Han and rise of the Tang. It's generally called the Six Dynasties period, but it encompasses the Three Kingdoms period, Jin, The Sixteen Kingdoms period, and the Southern and Northern Dynasties.If we're going into the fall of the Jin, when do we stop?

There's so much left they could do with the Three Kingdoms period. It's just an odd choice to skip ahead.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I know Eight Princes is the hot topic right now (especially since *I* just revived this thread with a post on it!), but I got back into Shogun 2 recently and may have over-extended myself as I'm one conquest away from the dreaded Realm Divide and while I've got at least a couple of strong armies in the field, my economy is barely keeping up and I worry that the steps needed to improve it (gaining enough koku to build more buildings, waiting for new arts to be mastered, etc.) will take too long and I'll hit 1600 AD before I've conquered what I need to win.

I'm playing the Shimazu on Normal difficulty, though I'm playing as Christian so that makes it slightly more difficult. I have 19 provinces, including the entirety of Kyushu and the southern part of Honshu up to Hoki, Mimasaka and Bizen.

[Resileaf]

Well, if your armies are good enough to conquer your enemies right now, your economy will stabilize on its own when you start conquering more lands during realm divide. If you don't already have them, I highly suggest taking the trade nodes on the left side of the map. Add multiple trade ships on them, there is a slight diminishing return, but you can easily have five or six ship on a trade node and still make bank.