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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Hello all, I decided that in the next AD&D 2e campain I want to play an obscure multiclass character, I am very intrigued by the cleric/thief duo.

    In my head, I have no idea what a cleric/thief backgroup could be, why a cleric should know thieves abilities? Should be able to hide himself or should be more focused on other skills?
    Or, viceversa, why a thief should know clerical spells?
    I am not able to come up to an organic plan on how to roleplay/what a cleric/thief is like.

    Have you ever played this kind of multiclass? Any idea or insight is very welcome, thank you!
    --
    Diego

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Well, Friar Tuck springs immediately to mind as a 'cleric' with thief-like storyline (he would be dual class as opposed to multiclass, or just a cleric with the outlaw kit, but that is where these things get murky and D&D not lining up perfectly with fiction). There's also a 'Temple thief of Olidorana' prestige class from 3e that was a good example -- stole ('back') relics which belong to their church.

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    Imp

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Cleric/Thief is an awesome multiclass, benefitting from fast level progression in the early levels to mitigate the multiclass penalty (by the time a single class Wizard hits level 2, you'll be Cleric 2/Thief 2, for example, assuming equal XP). The bog downer is weapons, as you're limited to Cleric only, but that pales compared to the abilitied you get.

    As for roleplay; a Cleric of a thief deity is always an option. Alternatively, there's always the reformed Thief, who turns his abilities to a higher purpose that mere monetary gain. Then there's the Cleric who is more adventurer than warrior; honing the more esoteric skills of the adventuring profession than merely combat and spellcasting.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    worship a god of thieves, thievery, trickery, shadows, stealth, darkness, murder, actions taken in darkness, luck, fortune, wealth and so on

    examples:
    Hermes(Hellenic)
    Ratri(Indian)
    Loki(Norse)
    Anansi (West Africa)
    Laverna (Roman)
    No Cha /SONG JIANG (Chinese)
    Bel(Conan)
    Votishal (Nehwon)
    Mask(FR)
    Olidammara(GH)
    Norebo(GH)

    and so on. Many have sp priest entries already made, which is very handy, as the cleric type B weapons limitation (which applies in 2e but not in 1e to a cleric/thief) is a bit of a killer.

    Examples from L&L
    "Duties of the Priesthood
    All of Sung Chiang’s priests are multi-classed Priest/Thief characters. The normal prohibition against human multi-classed characters is waived in the case of these individuals.
    Requirements: AB standard, but must also meet Thief requirements; AL any evil; WP as Thief; SP charm, combat, divination, guardian, healing, necromantic; PW nil; TU nil."

    "Duties of the Priesthood:
    All of Hermes priests must keep physically fit and be able to run long distances (they must always select the running proficiency but need allocate only 1 slot to do so). They often serve as professional arbiters, since it is well known that Hermes sends his avatar to punish any priest he catches taking any form of bribe (15% chance per occurrence).
    Requirements: AB standard plus Con 15+ and Wis 15+; AL any non-evil; WP club, staff, bludgeon; AR g; SP all, charm, divination healing, protection, summoning; PW 1) +1 to AC for every level up to tenth; 5) detect lie (no save); 10) always move as if under the influence of a haste spell; TU nil."

    "Duties of the Priesthood
    Priests of Ratri must sleep during the day and conduct normal activities at night.
    Requirements: AB standard; AL any chaotic; WP short sword, dagger, sling; AR b; SP all, astral, charm, divination, guardian, healing, necromantic, protection, summoning; PW 1) infravision (60’); 10) darkness, 15’ radius and light; TU nil."

    "Duties of the Priesthood
    In order to collect a large gathering of followers, Loki is rather loose in his requirements and generous in his gifts. Priests of Loki may be of any alignment except lawful, and are not required to perform any services except those occasionally demanded by the god himself. When a priest prays to Loki for some personal gain, there is a 1% chance per level that Loki will send his avatar to help the priest (but never more than three times in a lifetime).
    Requirements: AB standard; AL any non lawful; WP any; AR a; SP all, charm, combat, creation, divination, elemental, healing, plant, summoning; PW 5) mass suggestion; 12) shape change; TU nil."

    +dragon magazine updates sphere access in sage advice

    see various FR or greyhawk products for those deities (scarlet brotherhood, faiths & avatars, powers & pantheons, from the ashes, etc, etc)

    monster mythology & demihuman deities(of the realms) cover your D&D fantasy race invented gawd needs

    Yes, I've DMed & played such characters (inc assassin/clerics from 1e). They are fun, and highly variable in nature. The religion & alignment combo pretty much set the tone; many different roles are covered in the archetype(s). It ought be as commonly thought of as the fighter/magi, but 2e leaned hard away from "dark" PC's & didn't initially give much chance for the combo (gnomes per PH).
    Last edited by CE DM; 2019-06-18 at 09:23 AM.

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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Cleric Thief CAN be a good combo, though they tend to go a bit better with some mechanical support... limiting their cleric armor ability, and maybe expanding their weapons, via S&P or S&M or a kit.

    Base game, though? Cleric thieves do pretty well. While they have split XP, they start off with relatively low XP tables... cleric/thief to 2/2 isn't much worse than mage to level 2, and you start off with more HP on average. Check with your DM about rules on backstabs... some only allow thief weapons on backstabs, but that still allows clubs and quarterstaves.
    The Cranky Gamer
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Cleric/theives are awesome. All the advice above is good.

    By the 2E PH, you're limited to gnomes, but the backstory kinda writes itself, doesn't it? A reformed burglar, a larcenous priest, a temple "acquisitions" expert, holy assassin, church enforcer...

    I played a half-orc cleric/assassin in a retro 1E game for the Friday Night Gaming Group. We updated that one-shot to 2E for giggles, and I ended up with a half-orc cleric (Wee Jas)/thief (shadow kit, CompHum). So. Much. Fun.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by thorr-kan View Post
    Cleric/theives are awesome. All the advice above is good.

    By the 2E PH, you're limited to gnomes, but the backstory kinda writes itself, doesn't it? A reformed burglar, a larcenous priest, a temple "acquisitions" expert, holy assassin, church enforcer...

    I played a half-orc cleric/assassin in a retro 1E game for the Friday Night Gaming Group. We updated that one-shot to 2E for giggles, and I ended up with a half-orc cleric (Wee Jas)/thief (shadow kit, CompHum). So. Much. Fun.
    And, of course, you just have some gods who lend themselves to cleric/thieves. Baravar Cloakshadow, for example.... his version of "holy" isn't standard.
    The Cranky Gamer
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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by thorr-kan View Post
    Cleric/theives are awesome. All the advice above is good.

    By the 2E PH, you're limited to gnomes, but the backstory kinda writes itself, doesn't it? A reformed burglar, a larcenous priest, a temple "acquisitions" expert, holy assassin, church enforcer...

    I played a half-orc cleric/assassin in a retro 1E game for the Friday Night Gaming Group. We updated that one-shot to 2E for giggles, and I ended up with a half-orc cleric (Wee Jas)/thief (shadow kit, CompHum). So. Much. Fun.
    In my 2e PHB, there is no category of cleric/thief. Multi-classed gnomes can take any two of fighter, thief, or illusionist. 1e allows it, but only for half-orcs.

    I would be careful to pick a god of thieves or trickery -- Hermes, Loki, Gwydion, Coyote, Garl Glittergold, or some such. Ask your DM what gods exist.

    But also ask if a cleric/thief is available, because it's not listed in my book.

    And don't fall in the with the idea until the DM OKs it.

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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    In my 2e PHB, there is no category of cleric/thief. Multi-classed gnomes can take any two of fighter, thief, or illusionist. 1e allows it, but only for half-orcs.
    Huh. My 2e PH has it; between cleric/illusionist and illusionist/thief.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
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    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludiegu View Post
    Hello all, I decided that in the next AD&D 2e campain I want to play an obscure multiclass character, I am very intrigued by the cleric/thief duo.

    In my head, I have no idea what a cleric/thief backgroup could be, why a cleric should know thieves abilities? Should be able to hide himself or should be more focused on other skills?
    Or, viceversa, why a thief should know clerical spells?
    I am not able to come up to an organic plan on how to roleplay/what a cleric/thief is like.

    Have you ever played this kind of multiclass? Any idea or insight is very welcome, thank you!
    --
    Diego
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    In my 2e PHB, there is no category of cleric/thief. Multi-classed gnomes can take any two of fighter, thief, or illusionist. 1e allows it, but only for half-orcs.

    I would be careful to pick a god of thieves or trickery -- Hermes, Loki, Gwydion, Coyote, Garl Glittergold, or some such. Ask your DM what gods exist.

    But also ask if a cleric/thief is available, because it's not listed in my book.

    And don't fall in the with the idea until the DM OKs it.

    Did you mean 1e AD&D @ludiegu?

    'cause Half-orcs could be a Cleric/Thief in 1e.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Edit: others are on this already it seems, but
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    In my 2e PHB, there is no category of cleric/thief. Multi-classed gnomes can take any two of fighter, thief, or illusionist. 1e allows it, but only for half-orcs.

    I would be careful to pick a god of thieves or trickery -- Hermes, Loki, Gwydion, Coyote, Garl Glittergold, or some such. Ask your DM what gods exist.

    But also ask if a cleric/thief is available, because it's not listed in my book.

    And don't fall in the with the idea until the DM OKs it.

    I think you looked at your 1e PH, because the 2e PH says "A gnome character can elect to be a fighter, a thief, a cleric, or an illusionist. A gnome can have two classes, but not three: fighter/ thief, illusionist / thief, etc."
    BOTH versions of the 2e PH say that.

    The 1e PH only allowed clerics (as PCs) for humans or part humans (human, half elf, half orc). However, they were NPC's all along, and by "1.5e", the unearthed arcana, every race could be one. UA didn't make the multi-class combos clear (one ought assume EVERYTHING went, but I know many didn't), but dragon magazine did explain, and then later, gave "errata". Sure, check with the DM, always, but if cleric was ok, thief is ok, then cleric/thief almost certainly is too.

    pre UA: dragon 95, dragon 96
    UA
    dragon 103 (which I never loved, but allows any race, except hill/mountain dwarf & wild elf be a cleric/thief)

    I loathe the UA/1.5e overall too, but info is info.

    Back to 2e, gnomes are straight from the PH (see above), half orcs, if added back as PC's, are allowed to be C/T (see PO:S&P or complete book of humanoids, or From the Ashes), and monster mythology, legends & lore, and demi-human deities of the realms (among others I'm no doubt forgetting) will all have multi-class cleric/thief options. Even human ones (such as I brought up earlier).
    Last edited by CE DM; 2019-06-24 at 05:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by CE DM View Post
    I think you looked at your 1e PH, because the 2e PH says "A gnome character can elect to be a fighter, a thief, a cleric, or an illusionist. A gnome can have two classes, but not three: fighter/ thief, illusionist / thief, etc."
    BOTH versions of the 2e PH say that.
    We're looking in different places. Mine agrees with that on page 22 ("Gnomes"). But on page 44 ("Multi-Class and Dual-Class Characters"), it says:

    All of the demihuman races are listed here, along with their allowable multi-class combinations. Note that their character class names (not group names) are used below).

    Gnome
    Fighter/Illusionist
    Illusionist/Thief
    Fighter/Thief

    I repeat: Ask your DM if a cleric/thief is available.

    And don't fall in the with the idea until the DM OKs it.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    I can get behind that, but only in the "don't fall in the with the idea of playing a (insert class, race, alignment, etc, etc) at all until the DM OKs it" sense.
    Last edited by CE DM; 2019-06-25 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by CE DM View Post
    I can get behind that, but only in the "don't fall in the with the idea of playing a (insert class, race, alignment, etc, etc) at all until the DM OKs it" sense.
    You disagree with what is on page 44?

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    You disagree with what is on page 44?
    I do.

    My rtf file from the Core Rules 2.0, my pdf from DriveThruRpg.com, and my physical PH all list Cleric/Thief as an option both under the gnome racial description and the table listing multi-class combinations.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    My version of the 2ed rules lists the gnome cleric/thief as allowed as well.

    Base cl/th is good but it really shines if you pick a speciality deity from something like the complete priest's handbook. Allows you to get around that pesky weapon restriction list. Most gods of thieves allow their clerics things like short bows and swords.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    You disagree with what is on page 44?
    Yes..or that you are somehow missing something
    Gnome
    Fighter/Cleric
    Fighter/Illusionist
    Fighter /Thief
    Cleric/Illusionist
    Cleric/Thief
    Illusionist/Thief
    is page 44

    please just stop

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by CE DM View Post
    Yes..or that you are somehow missing something
    I'm not missing anything. I'm just clarifying what people are taking positions on. My 2e books are in cold storage. You were wrong that Jay R was looking at the 1e books, but you two have different versions of, or readings of, the 2e books.

    please just stop
    WTF?

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Just to check and confirm I went and grabbed my copy of the 2nd Ed PHB (the one with the black spine, almost certainly first printing as I bought it in 1989).

    Quote Originally Posted by page 22
    A gnome character can elect to be a fighter, a thief, a cleric, or an illusionist. A gnome can have two classes, but not three: fighter/thief, illusionist/cleric, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by page 44
    All of the standard demihuman races are listed here, along with their allowable multi-class combinations.
    Note that the character class names (not group names) are used below.
    ...
    Gnome
    Fighter/Illusionist
    Illusionist/Thief
    Fighter/Thief
    So, the original 2nd Ed PHB is definitely self-contradictory, but Jay R is not wrong in what he states it says. Later printings presumably differ, but I don't have one of them to confirm what people have said.
    I think the intention of the section on page 22 is clear, and that the author of page 44 forgot than gnomes can be clerics, but that is my supposition. If ludiegu's DM is sensible there should be no issue with playing a gnome cleric/thief, but if they only have the first printing of the PHB they may rule against it. That said, this is AD&D, not 3+ D&D, and a lot more DM customisation is expected than in the later editions so he should be good.

    Please, when posting, remember that TSR did make stealth updates to the books, so people may be looking at a different version of the page than you are, so yes, someone has made a mistake, but it may not be the poster...
    Last edited by Khedrac; 2019-06-26 at 09:58 AM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    so... get over the mistake

    it's been decades, it was settled decades ago. If they cut & pasted directly from the 1e PH on their first copies (but still clearly spoke the actual intent/change/rule under the race in question)...bad TSR. These days...bad on yourself.

    It was fixed pretty much immediately (if it really ever was an issue, which is dubious). The time to move along was 25+ years ago. Pretending otherwise for some internet etiquette is pathetic. I said what DOES apply...a DM might or might not have ANY rules for a given campaign, but beyond that, stop with the "gnome cleric/thief is questionable" BS, please. Skip the please at this point.
    Last edited by CE DM; 2019-06-26 at 04:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    I happen to have two different hardcopy printings of the 2nd edition Player's Handbook that I can locate right now. In the one that states a copyright date of 1989, a book number of 2101, and has the blue/black interior color scheme (I couldn't find a place where it specified a specific printing), on page 44 it lists only the three multi-class options previously mentioned by JayR. In the May 1995 printing (red chapter headings, new artwork, all pages renumbered, book 2159) in the equivalent list on page 61 it lists 6 options for gnomes including Cleric/Thief.

    Since I don't happen to have any intermediate printings, I can't tell you exactly when that change happened.
    Last edited by Algeh; 2019-06-27 at 02:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by CE DM View Post
    so... get over the mistake

    it's been decades, it was settled decades ago. If they cut & pasted directly from the 1e PH on their first copies (but still clearly spoke the actual intent/change/rule under the race in question)...bad TSR. These days...bad on yourself.

    It was fixed pretty much immediately (if it really ever was an issue, which is dubious). The time to move along was 25+ years ago. Pretending otherwise for some internet etiquette is pathetic. I said what DOES apply...a DM might or might not have ANY rules for a given campaign, but beyond that, stop with the "gnome cleric/thief is questionable" BS, please. Skip the please at this point.
    CE DM, you and you alone are the only one that is having a problem with this. Everyone else has been very clear -- there are differences in printing, different DMs coming back to 2e AD&D will have had different play experiences and difference sets of the norms. Someone looking at playing in these groups should check with their DMs on what set of expectations are in effect before they get their hear set on a specific multiclass option. Your attempt to frame the situation as someone else not getting over something, not moving on, or pretending something is simply not supported by what has actually happened on this thread. I strongly suggest that you go back and reread the thread from the beginning, note what has actually been said (and not been said), before you lash out again.

    As to questionable, you are right, there isn't a question. Merely different answers based on different printings of the book. Which one showed up in the last printing of the edition? The answer that supports gnomish cleric-thieves. What does that prove? Maybe something about what the designers thought the answer should be. What did most people who played 2e AD&D bitd experience? Depends on how many of which printing made it into the hands of gamers. What does that mean for someone wanting to play 2e AD&D today? They still have to check with (/negotiate with) their DM, regardless of anything we decide here.

    Arguing officialdom, particularly on a long-mothballed game+edition, is immensely fruitless. I'm reminded of a debate on Dragonsfoot years ago, where the subject was the 1e AD&D mummy, which, for unclear reasons was "undead humans with existence on both the normal and the positive material planes." Gygax, who had a presence there, had previously stated on a AME thread, something along the lines of, 'huh. no idea where that came from, probably a typo/meant to write 'negative'.' At least one person decided that that was now the official word on the matter and the 'true' answer. Others there responded that no one growing up playing the game had access to that answer, so it didn't really matter. Neither was specifically right or wrong, since the entire concept of a true answer on something like that is a subjective quality. My point is that there's no 'there' there to this question. Or even one single question to answer. Gnomes can be cleric-thieves in 2e AD&D... iff you have a DM who has access to a book with a specific printing that supports such and/or agrees to abide by such a printing, based on a convincing argument by a player who want to make a case for it. Pretty much what everyone else on this thread has already been suggesting -- check with your DM.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    The Mod Ogre: Y'all, I think we can drop "Is this real" as a thread.
    The Cranky Gamer
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    With the mod warning firmly in mind, I have a few ideas, if Complete Humanoids is on the table.

    Half-orc has cleric/thief, as mentioned. But also interesting from role-playing standpoint would be shaman (or witchdoctor)/thief. More limited spells and no turning, but some interesting special abilities and role-playing options.

    If other humanoid races are available, bugbear, goblin, kobold, and mongrelman all allow cleric/thief, with mongrelman allowing shaman (or witchdoctor)/thief. Those could be fun depending on the campaign setting.

    As an aside, I wonder why half-elves and halflings can't be cleric/thieves? Half-elves can be pretty much any other multi-class, and thief is practically a halfling's hat.

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by thorr-kan View Post
    Half-orc has cleric/thief, as mentioned. But also interesting from role-playing standpoint would be shaman (or witchdoctor)/thief. More limited spells and no turning, but some interesting special abilities and role-playing options.
    What was Complete Humanoid's stance on multiclassing and taking kits? I seem to recall the rules being different for each red-brown book. Could you be a Shaman or Witchdoctor multiclass? If so, it certainly is thematic.

    As an aside, I wonder why half-elves and halflings can't be cleric/thieves? Half-elves can be pretty much any other multi-class, and thief is practically a halfling's hat.
    I would speculate that it is a holdover from 1e, where clerics were pretty restricted (as to why that was, I'm not sure).

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    What was Complete Humanoid's stance on multiclassing and taking kits? I seem to recall the rules being different for each red-brown book. Could you be a Shaman or Witchdoctor multiclass? If so, it certainly is thematic.
    They're called out specifically in a few races in the multi-classing table at the end of the book.

    Shaman/witchdoctor is a special, special case, though. It's listed in the race pages and tables as a class, but listed in the kits chapter as a kit. The description says priest and cleric. The debate is both circular and endless. Simplest just to treat it as a kit for Cleric with different level limitations built in.

    At *MY* table though, CompHum shaman/witchdoctor kits would get treated as kits for *any* priest subclass. So much more opportunity that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I would speculate that it is a holdover from 1e, where clerics were pretty restricted (as to why that was, I'm not sure).
    Point.

    Maybe the idea was the limitation wasn't that half-elf/halfling couldn't be thieves; the limitation was they were only so-so priests. I can follow that logic chain.

    ETA: Spelling. Always spelling with me.
    Last edited by thorr-kan; 2019-06-27 at 02:58 PM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    If you were playing in Dark Sun, elves, half-elves, halflings and muls could all be cleric/thieves. Oddly dwarves can't despite being the only other race who can be clerics and thieves.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    If you were playing in Dark Sun, elves, half-elves, halflings and muls could all be cleric/thieves. Oddly dwarves can't despite being the only other race who can be clerics and thieves.
    Good point!

    I DM Al-Qadim, which uses the bog-standard PH races and multi-class combos. I forget that a lot of 2E campaign settings has their own, specific race and multi-class combos. Shoot, AQ sets it's own class and level limits for CompHumanoid races, so I should know better than to forget!

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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    If you were playing in Dark Sun, elves, half-elves, halflings and muls could all be cleric/thieves. Oddly dwarves can't despite being the only other race who can be clerics and thieves.
    And if any place SHOULD be able to do it, it would be Dark Sun, where the various clerical paths don't really have much in the way of dogma.
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    Default Re: Cleric/Thief anyone?

    I think Kender could do it as well. Handler/Cleric of Fizban. At least in the Gold-Box games (Champions/Death Knight/Dark Queen of Krynn) you could do it.
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