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    Default Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    "The fight raged on for a century
    Many lives were claimed, but eventually
    The champion stood
    The rest saw their better
    Mister Rogers in a bloodstained sweater
    "
    -Neil Cicierega, The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny (2005)

    Continuing on from the previous thread.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Woot! marking for future.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I think this is an interesting video.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Well enough put together video but I do disagree with it. End of the day, the animation doesn't matter, it's just for fun. They've stated it multiple times. Hell the entire reason the animation can't matter is because it's impossible for it to showcase the various ways the fight could go. This is known and stated.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I didn't watch the video, but of course the animation matters. It's the only reason anyone even knows that they exist. People certainly aren't following them for their logical and unbiased reasoning.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I didn't watch the video, but of course the animation matters. It's the only reason anyone even knows that they exist. People certainly aren't following them for their logical and unbiased reasoning.
    Let's put it this way, it doesn't matter as part of analysis. The animation and the analysis are two separate things.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I didn't watch the video, but of course the animation matters. It's the only reason anyone even knows that they exist. People certainly aren't following them for their logical and unbiased reasoning.
    Yeah, at the end of the day, we're watching for the show that they put on, which is also why the 1-Minute Melee spinoff works.

    The analysis is just an excuse for the fight.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    If the animation doesnt matter why reference it during the breakdown of the analysis?

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    If the animation doesnt matter why reference it during the breakdown of the analysis?
    what they are animating are some things that could happen, as well as some things that are just cool to look at. End of the day the animation doesn't have any bearing on the analysis, specifically because the animation is done after they figure out who's gonna win. After that it's just trying to make it as entertaining as possible.

    And you can't have an entertaining Stomp fight with the way most of the matchups pan out.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    what they are animating are some things that could happen, as well as some things that are just cool to look at. End of the day the animation doesn't have any bearing on the analysis, specifically because the animation is done after they figure out who's gonna win. After that it's just trying to make it as entertaining as possible.

    And you can't have an entertaining Stomp fight with the way most of the matchups pan out.
    What Ben has said, aside from the times they have said the animation is for entertainment, is that animation is for both the "educational" purpose of showing how they think it would play out and for entertainment.

    I think its pretty clear, after listening to them actually talk about what they do in the weekly "DB Cast" is that the animation is supposed to be true to the characters...mostly...However, they take liberties purely for the purpose of making the fights entertaining to watch.

    So talking skull is right, the animation is meant to be true to the fight except as a defense. Nevertheless, he's wrong to criticize how they animate the fight just like when he attacks who DB chooses to fight whom.

    Blue skull and other critics are arbitrarily imposing a lot of rules on web show. There's a limit to how much the internet community should expect out of a 15 minute internet production that purports to settle impossible fights between reality-breaking characters that have been inconsistently portrayed in different media. Expecting animation to be a consistent with a definitive portrayal of the character is absurd, especially as the official material doesn't itself adhere to a stringent standard.

    What they won't take liberty with, and they maintain this without exception week after week, is who they say wins the fight. That they do based on their analysis of who the crew actually think actually wins in accordance with the "Death Battle rules" (which they change on occasion and only introduced in like Season 3).

    There's only like four rules that are displayed briefly at the end of the battles along with the credits. The rules are things like "the characters don't know each other unless it states they do in their canon" (so almost never) or that the only personality trait they change is the character's willingness to kill (how they fight and other personality traits remain the same). Also they decided that "all official material" can be drawn from (not just canon).

    Some things this thread has decided is a "rule" such as "what's said about the scope character's powers don't count" (sometimes you can point to comic panels where ridiculous things are said that are never shown) or "what other people do don't count" (sometimes weak characters beat other characters that are really really really stronger) are not among these rules. Recent fights can be pointed to to show they've been inconsistent on these sorts of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Thank you Reddish for once again stating all the problems with something as if its a defense. By all means keep convincing me that Death Battle is a bad show with your efforts to do the opposite!
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Thank you Reddish for once again stating all the problems with something as if its a defense. By all means keep convincing me that Death Battle is a bad show with your efforts to do the opposite!
    It is what it is. If you think its a bad show for being a (mostly) unauthorized web-show and for failure to achieve a definitive animated portrayal or a perfectly consistent analysis year to year you will never find a good show in this space.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    The amination means something when the Animation shows a character doing something they can't do.

    Like Green Lantern managing to hurt Alien X with an attack that could only possibly be an insubstantial fraction of an amount of energy that Alien X literally didn't notice going off in his face.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The amination means something when the Animation shows a character doing something they can't do.

    Like Green Lantern managing to hurt Alien X with an attack that could only possibly be an insubstantial fraction of an amount of energy that Alien X literally didn't notice going off in his face.
    I'd say that still doesn't matter. The only thing important to me in the animation is " Is it entertaining. " I separate the fights from the actual characters. I can understand if it takes you out of the video though. I'm just willing to suspend my disbelief for the fights and treat them as something separate.

    To me the fights are just like watching One minute Melee it's just for fun.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    The animation is t=supposed to be a representation of the data.

    saying Green Lantern wins based on data is one thing, but you have to show him winning in a way that makes fricking sense.

    Alien X tanked the Big Bang.

    a small drop taken friom 1/7 of an unknown fraction of all the energy in the universe isn't gonna do jack.

    You can't just make up an ending. It has to fit the data and from my own research the animations often don't fit the data.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The animation is t=supposed to be a representation of the data.

    saying Green Lantern wins based on data is one thing, but you have to show him winning in a way that makes fricking sense.

    Alien X tanked the Big Bang.

    a small drop taken friom 1/7 of an unknown fraction of all the energy in the universe isn't gonna do jack.

    You can't just make up an ending. It has to fit the data and from my own research the animations often don't fit the data.
    Lets put it this way. You have the Quicksilver vs Flash fight. If you portray a realistic fight, all we'd get is two seconds of Wally or Barry sucking the speed out of Pietro and then leaving him as a statue. Fight over. They have to just do what's entertaining. And what's efficient, or realistic for these fights wouldn't be entertaining for the most part.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Lets put it this way. You have the Quicksilver vs Flash fight. If you portray a realistic fight, all we'd get is two seconds of Wally or Barry sucking the speed out of Pietro and then leaving him as a statue. Fight over. They have to just do what's entertaining. And what's efficient, or realistic for these fights wouldn't be entertaining for the most part.
    There's a differance between being entertaining and flat out ignoring the data.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Lets put it this way. You have the Quicksilver vs Flash fight. If you portray a realistic fight, all we'd get is two seconds of Wally or Barry sucking the speed out of Pietro and then leaving him as a statue. Fight over. They have to just do what's entertaining. And what's efficient, or realistic for these fights wouldn't be entertaining for the most part.
    Actually, given how we see superheroes actually fight in canon stories, its pretty realistic to allow a Flash fight against an inferior speedster to be allowed to build up dramatically, and even allow that opponent a hit or two (or even a dramatic "just about to win") before the Flash just lets it rip and creams him.

    What's not in keeping with the comics is that the Flash goes and straight up murders Quicksilver at this point. However, that sort of thing is explicitly a Death Battle signature that is going to happen at the end regardless of how off-character (or off-putting) it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    There's a differance between being entertaining and flat out ignoring the data.
    I don't quite get that. They've analyzed Hal as universe destroyer+ type powers and essentially unlimited will. By their analysis, if Hal wants the punch to land, it will land.

    I can see someone getting worked up about the way Hal gets slowly erased out of existence. At least I get that someone with a silly sense of animation purity getting worked up at seeing some small artistic liberty. However, Hal getting a punch in? Really, you've seen comics. Anyone can get a punch in on anyone. Its not like Alien X hasn't been knocked around before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Infinite Will means jack-squat.

    There is canonically a finite amount of the Green Light of Will and ocne it's gone it's gone forever.

    The Greenlight of Will is 1/7th of the Emotive Energy, which is, in turn, a fraction of all the life-energy in the universe, which is, in turn, a fraction of all the energy in a finite universe.

    This was a plot point in a very major Green Lantern storyline.

    If literally an entire universe's worth of energy exploding in your face didn't hurt you, then a ridiculously tiny fraction of that same energy isn't going o hurt you.

    The only time Alien X has ever been knocked around was by another Celestial Sapien. Another Omnipotent.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Thank you Reddish for once again stating all the problems with something as if its a defense. By all means keep convincing me that Death Battle is a bad show with your efforts to do the opposite!
    I think DB truly is amazing in being one of the things a lot of people who really hate it apparently invest a load of time into hating it, especially considering just ignoring it would be much easier.

    That's not to say it hasn't has its flaws (despite which I enjoy it) but if I disliked it as much as some of you, I'd have stopped engaging with it years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    I think DB truly is amazing in being one of the things a lot of people who really hate it apparently invest a load of time into hating it, especially considering just ignoring it would be much easier.

    That's not to say it hasn't has its flaws (despite which I enjoy it) but if I disliked it as much as some of you, I'd have stopped engaging with it years ago.
    It purports to be a decisive treatment of "who would win" a superhero matchup. By its very nature that is going to attract disagreement of the "nah uh my guy is better" variety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Infinite Will means jack-squat.

    There is canonically a finite amount of the Green Light of Will and ocne it's gone it's gone forever.

    The Greenlight of Will is 1/7th of the Emotive Energy, which is, in turn, a fraction of all the life-energy in the universe, which is, in turn, a fraction of all the energy in a finite universe.

    This was a plot point in a very major Green Lantern storyline.

    If literally an entire universe's worth of energy exploding in your face didn't hurt you, then a ridiculously tiny fraction of that same energy isn't going o hurt you.

    The only time Alien X has ever been knocked around was by another Celestial Sapien. Another Omnipotent.
    Not that I disagree with the idea that Ben was completely robbed in that fight, but technically speaking, theres nothing that says every universe has an equal amount of energy. The problem was the fact that Alien X is pretty much by definition an I Win button, not that Hal was able to do something to it in a way that it actually noticed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Not that I disagree with the idea that Ben was completely robbed in that fight, but technically speaking, theres nothing that says every universe has an equal amount of energy. The problem was the fact that Alien X is pretty much by definition an I Win button, not that Hal was able to do something to it in a way that it actually noticed.
    They used Hal's apparent ability to travel through time to justify his win.

    In the animation, they had him use this after Alien X turned back time to avoid a fatal wound that Hal inflicted with a spear made of Green Light and then mentioned turning back time.

    The entire sequence of events is based on Hal managing to inflict a serious wound.

    Which the data points say couldn't possibly happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    They used Hal's apparent ability to travel through time to justify his win.

    In the animation, they had him use this after Alien X turned back time to avoid a fatal wound that Hal inflicted with a spear made of Green Light and then mentioned turning back time.

    The entire sequence of events is based on Hal managing to inflict a serious wound.

    Which the data points say couldn't possibly happen.
    Well that makes the animation silly, but it doesn't mean Hal couldn't have done that earlier, it just means the animators thought it was cooler than Nth dimensional chess with lots of time travel that would be completely incomprehensible. The animation is just there to look cool and attract interest, not actually explain how a battle would go.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Well that makes the animation silly, but it doesn't mean Hal couldn't have done that earlier, it just means the animators thought it was cooler than Nth dimensional chess with lots of time travel that would be completely incomprehensible. The animation is just there to look cool and attract interest, not actually explain how a battle would go.
    Eh, the whole fight was a robbery in the making. Ben has actually MORE combat experience than Hal, with multiple timelines overlapping bs among other things, other forms of power, like magic, and was stated to be up there too with his capabilities, and of course, has straight up at minimum two defenses against "cut off arm with scissors", one of which is that the device wouldn't allow it, and the other is that it STILL works even separate from his body " since the same episode that he lost his arm he was far more removed from it than a couple inches."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Eh, the whole fight was a robbery in the making. Ben has actually MORE combat experience than Hal, with multiple timelines overlapping bs among other things, other forms of power, like magic, and was stated to be up there too with his capabilities, and of course, has straight up at minimum two defenses against "cut off arm with scissors", one of which is that the device wouldn't allow it, and the other is that it STILL works even separate from his body " since the same episode that he lost his arm he was far more removed from it than a couple inches."
    Which episode and series had Ben lose his arm?

    The watch’s defense won’t let it be removed normally and there’s a fail safe where it will automatically transform him. Those are the two already mentioned (both in the DB cast which they address it).
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The animation is t=supposed to be a representation of the data.

    saying Green Lantern wins based on data is one thing, but you have to show him winning in a way that makes fricking sense.

    Alien X tanked the Big Bang.

    a small drop taken friom 1/7 of an unknown fraction of all the energy in the universe isn't gonna do jack.

    You can't just make up an ending. It has to fit the data and from my own research the animations often don't fit the data.
    I will counterpoint. If this was an official Green lantern story written by Geoff Johns, considered THE Green lantern writer of the modern age...it would play exactly like this. Exactly. Up to people losing their hands, Hal Jordan damaging and tanking attacks from a godlike entity and pulling out obscure ability not seen since Silver Age to win the fight.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    I will counterpoint. If this was an official Green lantern story written by Geoff Johns, considered THE Green lantern writer of the modern age...it would play exactly like this. Exactly. Up to people losing their hands, Hal Jordan damaging and tanking attacks from a godlike entity and pulling out obscure ability not seen since Silver Age to win the fight.
    Sometimes I feel like we don't have people that actually read DC comics in this thread. Can you give us a story or two we haven't mentioned where Hal does this sort of thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    I will counterpoint. If this was an official Green lantern story written by Geoff Johns, considered THE Green lantern writer of the modern age...it would play exactly like this. Exactly. Up to people losing their hands, Hal Jordan damaging and tanking attacks from a godlike entity and pulling out obscure ability not seen since Silver Age to win the fight.
    And if it was an official Ben 10 story written by his writers?

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    And if it was an official Ben 10 story written by his writers?
    Then Ben and Hal would learn an important lesson about themselves and walk away as friends?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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