Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Keltest]

I dunno, given how long his fairy godmother was wanting to turn him into a dog and he kept getting out of it, I would say he can abuse the heck out of loopholes quite well. I will admit its hardly his strongest trait though, but it is a pretty basic survival skill for his setting.

Harry wasn't abusing a loophole, he was literally running and hiding so that she couldn't cast the spell on him. Pretty much every time he was involved in an "exact wording" deal, he got screwed over by it because he generally believes in fair play.

[Forum Explorer]

Harry wasn't abusing a loophole, he was literally running and hiding so that she couldn't cast the spell on him. Pretty much every time he was involved in an "exact wording" deal, he got screwed over by it because he generally believes in fair play.

He did eventually worm his way out, but it wasn't a loophole then, either. He gave himself over to her, after fatally poisoning himself. He then bought himself some time by his friend selling her an antidote in exchange for his temporary freedom. But yeah, there was no loophole. If she hadn't accepted that bargain, Harry would've died.

The closest I can think of is his bargain with Mab, where he agrees to become the Winter Knight, after hiring an assassin to kill him before his duties would begin and erasing his memory of said assassin so Mab wouldn't know he intended to welch on the deal.

[Dragonus45]

What about if Dresden fully powers up? One of my favorite scenes in the books is when Mab gives him the mantle and he points out all the other options he had, like the Denarian coin or the Darkhallow. He just thought her deal was the best of the bad options. But what if he did use those to fully power up; where does he stand compared to someone like Constantine then? (I'm super not familiar with his character beyond Legends of Tomorrow).

The Darkhallow takes a long time to set up and can specifically only be done on Halloween so I wouldn’t consider it in a death battle. Although if you did you would need to to bring in a totally different level of violence from what Constantine brings. I’m DC terms pumping yourself to the gills with necromantic power in a right of ascension to real deal godhood puts him on par with something like Swamp Thing. Although Swamp Thing would probably win.

As for the coin? The real game changer there is that it gives Harry a genuine battle form. Most of the other benefits from Lasciel kick in over time as he would have the benefit of her tutoring him in magic. But a chance to become one of the supernaturally tough bus bench pressing badasses that otherwise routinely terrorize him on top of all his other magical defenses and know how with Mab’s “physical therapy” making him more versatile and precise with his magic then he has ever been? Yea I think he wins at that point. People like to poopoo the nickleheads full power because Dresden munched a bunch in Small Favor but that was deceptive, because I don’t think he ever took one in a straight fight. He ambushed snake boy and then hit him with a really powerful manifestation of soulfire that caught both of them off guard. He nudged a few while they were falling into a hellfire nuclear laser beam, but even that was only possible because they assumed he was literally to dumb to even be that subtle. Considering he was being manipulated my Mab to forget his fire magic they may even have been right. Lucio, the head warden, fights one that’s half dead from being drowned in an entire aquariums worth of water and said she would want nothing to do with one in full health. Then he scares a bunch off alongside the knights, and wrestled Nicodemous the person. In skin games he does take Lasciel’s new holder down in what appears to be a straight fight but that entire situation was an orgy of backstabbing where he maneuvered the fairly inexperienced holder into making a fatal mistakes. She may wel have overpowered him in a straight fight despite only having the coin for days and having little real magical combat experience in a proper wizard fight outside of startling a couple wardens with her for savant powers. The Knights is the Blackened Denarius are are at the top of the “Do not **** with” scale of the Dresdenverse and they function as a danger multiplier for the person they are on, since the average one is just riding whatever fool they could find and not battle hardened badasses which is really their only weakness.

[Lord Raziere]

I still think that the Naagloshi is more of a threat than the coin demons, because I've seen the Fate stats for the Naagloshi, and they are freaking BONKERS, mythic strength, speed AND durability? shapeshifting? legendary skills in everything? are specifically stated to be near plot level semidivine monsters of pure evil? only weakness is native american holy magic? needs a freaking atomic bomb to kill otherwise? its a testament to Dresdens skills that he was able to survive that thing attacking at all. if that doesn't speak to Dresdens ability to take on superior opponents....

[Reddish Mage]

The Darkhallow takes a long time to set up and can specifically only be done on Halloween so I wouldn’t consider it in a death battle. Although if you did you would need to to bring in a totally different level of violence from what Constantine brings. I’m DC terms pumping yourself to the gills with necromantic power in a right of ascension to real deal godhood puts him on par with something like Swamp Thing. Although Swamp Thing would probably win.

If your going to let Dresden power up you have to allow the same for Constantine...Constantine can do a lot with ritual preparation.

I don't get what people are saying here about Dresden having a prayer at winning. Constantine has killed Neron and Doctor Fate (Earth 2)! He has cut off Swamp Thing from the source of his power. His magic blasts hurt a thing that is the very embodiment of evil. He can create a universe-wide illusion that can fool Darkseid. His ability to teleport across worlds, dimensions, to hell, is practically limitless. He can manipulate and travel through time. He would know if you poison his food, he will spot the ambush, and when it comes down to it, luck will save him because he's the embodiment of a Tarot.

Check out this New 52 respect thread for some of his feats.

All of these powerboosts and attacks that Harry Dresden can or might have any possibility of doing if you imagined a "what if" scenario is not anywhere near Constantine's league. This isn't so much Flash versus Quicksilver, as it is Flash versus Tenya Iida. There just isn't a scenario where Dresden wins that makes sense.

[Lord Raziere]

Ah but if Constantine is so powerful, then he is too powerful to fight Dresden fairly. Therefore perhaps there should be a rule that the more powerful one should be disqualified from fighting the other. its only fair, and why hold onto anything goes rules if we're discussing this for fun?

[Anteros]

Ah but if Constantine is so powerful, then he is too powerful to fight Dresden fairly. Therefore perhaps there should be a rule that the more powerful one should be disqualified from fighting the other. its only fair, and why hold onto anything goes rules if we're discussing this for fun?

Well, it wasn't immediately so obvious who would win until we discussed it, so that's the point isn't it?

Constantine's biggest weakness is probably his personality. He just doesn't care about things like Dresden does. If it's anything other than a death battle Dresden might be able to up the stakes enough to cause Constantine to walk away. If Constantine goes all out though, it's over.

[Traab]

Yeah maybe if we restrict it to keanu constantine the fight gets a lot closer. Of course then its primarily tool using constantine against tool and magic user dresden. Keanu didnt have much in the way of mystic powers himself.

[Dragonus45]

Yeah maybe if we restrict it to keanu constantine the fight gets a lot closer. Of course then its primarily tool using constantine against tool and magic user dresden. Keanu didnt have much in the way of mystic powers himself.

Keanu would get eaten for lunch. Personally I think separating out Hellblazer Constantine from DC Constantine makes it a much more even keeled fight and makes sense they really just don’t match up for Hellblazer to be him in life any more.

[Reddish Mage]

Keanu would get eaten for lunch. Personally I think separating out Hellblazer Constantine from DC Constantine makes it a much more even keeled fight and makes sense they really just don’t match up for Hellblazer to be him in life any more.

So that brings back what I said above about blaster mages versus magic users with control powers. OG Hellblazer!Constantine regularly uses illusion magic, and super-hypnosis.

Also, Constantine always can do extremely high level summons, exorcisms and bindings, is durable enough to jump from a bridge through a boat's roof. He can teleport and mask himself from magical detection.

Also, this "limited" Constantine is tricky enough to trick the Devil...multiple times! Consistent with his character, he could trick Dresden into allowing him to conduct a ritual or a powerful summons and its all over.

[McNum]

This, amusingly, makes him fighting Etrigan sorta make sense since Etrigan is bound ot Jason Blood, who hails from Camelot himself.

In last Death Battlecast, they posted a link to an official submission form for battles you want to see. I ended up submitting 10 or so, list below if anyone wants to discuss whenever these suggestions are a good idea and would make a good fight or not

Spoiler: In alphabetic order

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Alex Armstrong vs Steven Armstrong (Fullmetal ALchemist vs Metal Gear)
Alucard vs Blade (Castlevania vs Marvel)
Arya Stark vs Hit-Girl (Game of Thrones vs Kick-Ass)
Asuka Kazama vs Sakura Kasugano (Tekken vs Street Fighter)
Cassandra Cain vs X-23 (Batman vs X-Men)
Dio Brando vs Nox (JoJo'S Bizarre Adventure vs Wakfu)
Gordon Freeman vs Isaac Clarke (Half-Life vs Dead Space)
Harley Quinn vs Jinx (Batman vs League of Legends)
Harry Dresden vs John Constantine (Dresden Files vs DC Comics)
Moriggan vs Yennefer (Dragon Age vs the Witcher)
Ragnar Lothbork vs Thorkell the Tall (Vikings vs Vinland Saga)
Rayne vs Seras Victoria (Bloodrayne vs Hellsing)

Ooh, don't mind if I do. I only really have one, though.

Donald Duck (as the Duck Avenger) vs. Daffy Duck (as Duck Dodgers)

Donald is by far the better fighter, but Daffy was an honorary Green Lantern on account of getting his laundry mixed up with Hal Jordan's at one point. And they both have access to a spaceship if we want a space battle out of it.

I'd narrowly give it to Donald just because Donald doesn't fool around. Daffy could take it if he could take it seriously. And yes, part of this is to get the Death Battle team to read PKNA and laugh at what Donald gets of wonderful toys in that.

I kind of want to put Viewtiful Joe in there, too, but I can't think of a good opponent. A transforming hero with time/movie powers is kind of hard to find an equivalent opponent for.

[Prime32]

Phoenix Wright vs She-Hulk, in the courtroom.

Black Cat vs Catwoman.

I kind of want to put Viewtiful Joe in there, too, but I can't think of a good opponent. A transforming hero with time/movie powers is kind of hard to find an equivalent opponent for.

Kamen Riders Den-O and Zi-O are time-themed, while Kabuto and Drive feature powers related to speeding things up or slowing them down. Kamen Rider Decade has a camera theme, can travel between universes (sometimes including the past and future), and can copy the time powers of other Riders. Both Den-O and Decade are also thematically connected to stories.

[HolyDraconus]

So spoiler

Spoiler: duh

Show

Lobo loses. He trumps GR but has no way of killing him, while GR can apparently eat
souls. Soo there's that.

And

Spoiler: Next time

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Dragonzord vs Mecha Godzilla. I'm throwing money on Mecha. DZ doesnt get the bs that the tigerzord got, as far as I know, and Mecha actually beat Godzilla straight up several times, some of which was so one sided it wasn't funny. Plus, with db logic of combining sources to make a super entity, I'm sure that Kiryu and its line of feats will be explored as well.

[Devonix]

So spoiler

Spoiler: duh

Show

Lobo loses. He trumps GR but has no way of killing him, while GR can apparently eat
souls. Soo there's that.

And

Spoiler: Next time

Show

Dragonzord vs Mecha Godzilla. I'm throwing money on Mecha. DZ doesnt get the bs that the tigerzord got, as far as I know, and Mecha actually beat Godzilla straight up several times, some of which was so one sided it wasn't funny. Plus, with db logic of combining sources to make a super entity, I'm sure that Kiryu and its line of feats will be explored as well.

Did they actually portray the Penance Stare properly?

[HolyDraconus]

Did they actually portray the Penance Stare properly?

As far as I'm aware. He isnt immune to it, so the whole heart of gold thing never came up. They DID mentioned that Punisher resisted the Stare but went on to say probably because GR was holding back. Lobo's regen feats though are freaking ridiculous to the point that DC has Carnage, wolfie and Deadpool beat, but the way he's portrayed the fight should of been tossed. Lobo does a lot of Wallbreaking. Enough so that this fight shouldn't have came up. And worse, he scales closer to Big Blue than I thought, what with the hyper intelligence.

[Lemmy]

As far as I'm aware. He isnt immune to it, so the whole heart of gold thing never came up. They DID mentioned that Punisher resisted the Stare but went on to say probably because GR was holding back. Lobo's regen feats though are freaking ridiculous to the point that DC has Carnage, wolfie and Deadpool beat, but the way he's portrayed the fight should of been tossed. Lobo does a lot of Wallbreaking. Enough so that this fight shouldn't have came up. And worse, he scales closer to Big Blue than I thought, what with the hyper intelligence.

Well... Lobo is basically a cartoon parody of hyper-machismo... So he often pulls off impossible feats simply because they are funny, just like Tom & Jerry can jump to the moon when stung by a bee or regenerate from a world-breaking explosion.

IIRC, at one point, it's stated that Lobo can regenerate from a single cell.

[Delicious Taffy]

And

Spoiler: Next time

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Dragonzord vs Mecha Godzilla. I'm throwing money on Mecha. DZ doesnt get the bs that the tigerzord got, as far as I know, and Mecha actually beat Godzilla straight up several times, some of which was so one sided it wasn't funny. Plus, with db logic of combining sources to make a super entity, I'm sure that Kiryu and its line of feats will be explored as well.

Spoiler: Next time

Show

Okay, I love Dragonzord. It's the coolest thing from its home series. If I could build one in real life, I would build three.

There is absolutely no chance of Dragonzord beating MechaGodzilla solo. It just can't happen. Maybe if it's allowed to combine with Tor and the Megazord, we could have something that looks fair? But that would mean MG would have to be allowed to combine with something. Has it done that before?

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: Next time

Show

Okay, I love Dragonzord. It's the coolest thing from its home series. If I could build one in real life, I would build three.

There is absolutely no chance of Dragonzord beating MechaGodzilla solo. It just can't happen. Maybe if it's allowed to combine with Tor and the Megazord, we could have something that looks fair? But that would mean MG would have to be allowed to combine with something. Has it done that before?

In a word, yes.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Next time

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Okay, I love Dragonzord. It's the coolest thing from its home series. If I could build one in real life, I would build three.

There is absolutely no chance of Dragonzord beating MechaGodzilla solo. It just can't happen. Maybe if it's allowed to combine with Tor and the Megazord, we could have something that looks fair? But that would mean MG would have to be allowed to combine with something. Has it done that before?

Spoiler

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1: Titanus.

2: Mecha Godzilla II can combine with the Garuda to become Super Mecha Godzilla.

[Devonix]

Well... Lobo is basically a cartoon parody of hyper-machismo... So he often pulls off impossible feats simply because they are funny, just like Tom & Jerry can jump to the moon when stung by a bee or regenerate from a world-breaking explosion.

IIRC, at one point, it's stated that Lobo can regenerate from a single cell.

Lobo's also barred from the Afterlife in DC comics. If he dies, he just comes back because none of the people responsible for the dead in DC actually want him around.

[Lemmy]

Lobo's also barred from the Afterlife in DC comics. If he dies, he just comes back because none of the people responsible for the dead in DC actually want him around.

Heh... I remember reading that story in my brother's old comics back when I was a teenager...

But even so, Lobo still dies (he just comes back), so he could still technically lose, since DB is a fight to DEATH. I'm not even sure that fact is still canon, as Lobo does stay dead for quite a while, sometimes.

Although, now that I think about it... Does being banned from the Afterlife even matter at all? This is comic book-verse... EVERYONE comes back! Well... Except Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy (and the latter was replaced by multiverse doppelgangers, anyway).

[Rater202]

Actually, Gwen Stacy was revived in Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy.

Jackal somehow created a method of cloning different from his normal method that produces a clone so perfect that cloning a dead person with a DNA sample taken after they die functions as a resurrection--it's been confirmed by Death herself that Ben Reilly is the original Ben's soul in a new body and Doctor Strange confirms the same about Billy Connors.

Of course, Gwen didn't survive that storyline--she a bunch of other Spider-Man characters who were revived chose to sacrifice themselves to stop the bad guy rather than suffer clone degeneration.

And there was a missed opportunity because the Web-Warriors were in that storyline but Gwen and Spider-Gwen didn't have any significant interaction.

[Lemmy]

Actually, Gwen Stacy was revived in Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy.

Jackal somehow created a method of cloning different from his normal method that produces a clone so perfect that cloning a dead person with a DNA sample taken after they die functions as a resurrection--it's been confirmed by Death herself that Ben Reilly is the original Ben's soul in a new body and Doctor Strange confirms the same about Billy Connors.

Of course, Gwen didn't survive that storyline--she a bunch of other Spider-Man characters who were revived chose to sacrifice themselves to stop the bad guy rather than suffer clone degeneration.

And there was a missed opportunity because the Web-Warriors were in that storyline but Gwen and Spider-Gwen didn't have any significant interaction.

Dunno what you're talking about... Clone Saga? There's no such thing. Never happened. Nu-uh! What other nonsense are you going to tell me? That Gwen Stacy had children with Norman Osborn?

Bah! Say no more...

SERIOUSLY! SAY NO MORE!

- - -

On a different note... I think the real reason Lobo doesn't stay dead is because he doesn't want to get his ass kicked in the afterlife.

Spoiler: Lobo has no chance!

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[Rater202]

1: clone conspiracy was better than Clone Saga.

2: You can't ignore the clone saga. Yeah, I get it, it was bad. But too much Spider-Man Lore is dependant on it.

[Lemmy]

1: clone conspiracy was better than Clone Saga.

That's not a very high bar...

2: You can't ignore the clone saga.

You underestimate my power!

[Anteros]

1: clone conspiracy was better than Clone Saga.

2: You can't ignore the clone saga. Yeah, I get it, it was bad. But too much Spider-Man Lore is dependant on it.

Spider-Man lore is a garbage heap anyway. You pretty much have to ignore most of it to enjoy the character. There's what? 60 spider people now?

[Rater202]

Spider-Man lore is a garbage heap anyway. You pretty much have to ignore most of it to enjoy the character. There's what? 60 spider people now?

Discounting Alternate Universe duplicates, the main universe has been the home of Four Spider-Men, Two Scarlet Spiders, one Madam Web, one Spider-Girl, one Silk, two Spider-Women, and Ghost-Spider is going to college there.

There are like five other Spider-Women, one of whom became the second Maddam Web, but only the two had any connection to Spider-Man or his lore.

And the Lore is a vital part of Spider-Man's character. Remove his history and he's a bitter jackass whose a couple of really bad days from deciding them to SHOW THEM ALL!

[Lord Raziere]

Spider-Man lore is a garbage heap anyway. You pretty much have to ignore most of it to enjoy the character. There's what? 60 spider people now?

I feel as if thats every comic book character though. there is 60 of every popular superhero, Superman, Batman, Iron Man, Green Lantern, The Flash.

and that one just....enjoys the character because there is a core, a soul that defies the letter of what a character is and that core character is what you see and it may be just some composite of various incarnations or whatever, but somehow its truer than true and it carries over between incarnations. certainly I would not say any fan depictions of them are any particular incarnation but rather an attempt to convey who they really are across most of them.

[Man on Fire]

So spoiler

Spoiler: duh

Show

Lobo loses. He trumps GR but has no way of killing him, while GR can apparently eat
souls. Soo there's that.

Spoiler: Okay...

Show

This kinda confirms my worry that they picked this match-up over Etrigan vs Ghost Rider to end DC's winning streak as Etrigan was far more likely to have a way to both kill Ghost Rider and resist eating souls or Penance Stare because, well, he is a demon and that **** is his bread and butter.

As far as I'm aware. He isnt immune to it, so the whole heart of gold thing never came up. They DID mentioned that Punisher resisted the Stare but went on to say probably because GR was holding back. Lobo's regen feats though are freaking ridiculous to the point that DC has Carnage, wolfie and Deadpool beat, but the way he's portrayed the fight should of been tossed. Lobo does a lot of Wallbreaking. Enough so that this fight shouldn't have came up. And worse, he scales closer to Big Blue than I thought, what with the hyper intelligence.

People who usually resist Penance Stare, like Punisher or Deacon from Jason Aaron's run are so deluded their crimes have been done for a good, their fanaticism is so big they force themselves to walk through all this pain for their cause. Lobo never claimed he is a good guy, he knows he does horrible things and he clearly LOVES them, so he wouldn't qualify anyway.

And yeah, Lobo is close to Superman level, he moonlights as his villain after all.

Spider-Man lore is a garbage heap anyway. You pretty much have to ignore most of it to enjoy the character. There's what? 60 spider people now?

Why is that so bad? We get good stories with characters who are different and make their own spin on Peter, be it Miles, Kaine, Gwen, Mayday, Anya, Ben or even Otto, nothing wrong with that.

I feel as if thats every comic book character though. there is 60 of every popular superhero, Superman, Batman, Iron Man, Green Lantern, The Flash.

and that one just....enjoys the character because there is a core, a soul that defies the letter of what a character is and that core character is what you see and it may be just some composite of various incarnations or whatever, but somehow its truer than true and it carries over between incarnations. certainly I would not say any fan depictions of them are any particular incarnation but rather an attempt to convey who they really are across most of them.

I always feel that building the family or legacy line helps to elevate the character, make them more than just mask of a specific person but a symbol that inspires people, it's an acknowledgment of what the hero has accomplished and how important they have become for people in and out of the Universe.

[Traab]

I will be honest,

Spoiler

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My instant thought even before the fight started was soul burning wins. But I started to get nervous when they started listing absurd lobo feats that were trillions of times greater than anything ghost rider has done. Zarathos unbound was about the only reason that lobo lost but still, im ok with it as this wasnt some minor little bit of fluff to a character from a one shot, but a defining trait of what ghost rider is capable of doing. I always hated those victories where some obscure ability that comes up once or twice over 60 years of comics is a deciding factor. Or even the crazy one off feats like eating a city in one bite.

As for next time

Spoiler

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No chance, dragonzord, I love ya buddy, but you lack the special effects budget to win this. Unless there is some sort of dragonzord fluff that isnt represented on the show itself that implies it is stupidly stronger than it looks, he is going to get smashed. I havent even watched any mecha godzillas and I can tell. Im calling it here, they will abuse 50 flavors of transitive property here, pull the best feats of regular godzilla from its own death battle, then point out that mecha beat godzilla at some point therefore he is stronger than THAT and its over.