Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: Next Time

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I am mispelling his name. It's Hiei from YuYu Hakusho. For what it's worth I think he is immune to fire at least, considering he is a fire demon. He has his own eye techniques too, which might make him somewhat resistant to illusions. So on paper, I kinda get why he was chosen as Sauke's opponent. But it's like Quicksilver vs Flash. They might have similar abilities, but one is on an entirely different level.

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Hiei's basically Vegeta with a fire theme? Personality wise, at least - he's the guy who's always second-best to the series protagonist and broods about it. Considering Naruto reached a higher power level than YYH and Sasuke was the Rival to Naruto instead of the second banana so he needs to be able to match up to an end-stage shounen combat lead character.. this isn't gonna go well for Hiei. He'll probably get a chance to show off his own fire traits/fire style - his trademark thing is the 'Dragon of Darkness Flame' which is.. basically Amaterasu - and then Sasuke will end up destroying him with genjutsu or lightning.

[Lemmy]

Spoiler: Next Time

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The only advantages I can see in Hiei's favor is that he's (arguably) immune to fire and really difficult to kill by virtue of being an youkai (he can also devour his own technique to make himself stronger).

He also has that weird ugly-ass transformation he only ever used once, which might work as a multiplier or sorts, I guess.

Otherwise, both him and Sasuke have similar themes and abilities (eye-relates powers, black fire techniques, focus on speed, wield katanas), but are on too different a scale. Yu Yu Hakusho never reaches the power levels of late Naruto chapters. And AFAIK, Hiei also doesn't get the same favoritism that Sasuke does (who's the author's favorite character).

BTW, why do we bother spoilerizing "Next Time" discussions? They contain no spoilers, just speculation.

I mean... If a movie, game, book, series or whatever else is announced, should every discussion about what to expect from it to be spoilerized?

[TeChameleon]

Gotta admit, this next one seems like kind of a foregone conclusion. I actually prefer Yu Yu Hakusho to Naruto, but barring Hiei having some crazy endgame feat I'm forgetting about (or maybe they're going to have him eat Amaterasu..?), this doesn't seem like much of a matchup.

[Rynjin]

The issue with this matchup isn't that Hiei is necessarily outmatched, it's that it's hard to prove that he isn't. Most of the series' power scaling is relative to the person they're fighting being stated to be immensely strong, but YYH never went in super hard for terrain destruction and similar, so their best "feats" pretty much come from the end of the Dark Tournament...two arcs before the end of the series, but they're STATED to be exponentially more powerful by the end.

S rank demons get enormous statboosts (to the point that it becomes dangerous for the planet for them to merely exist on Earth), but as a side effect of that...everything involving post-S rank Yu Yu Hakusho takes place in the Demon World, and all the fights involve similarly powered/even more powerful demons.

The only math based feat I can think of that DB may pull for a surprise victory is how the Dragon of the Darkness Flame INSTANTLY ANNIHILATES a guy who's supposed to be fire resistant/immune, leaving just a "flame shadow" like a nuke went off on the guy, and that's from pretty early on. Likewise he's on par with Yusuke through most of the series, and Yusuke is explicitly a mountain buster.

[HolyDraconus]

Sassy wins this, but endgame hiei hits early dbz levels. YYH started off extremely grounded, powerwise. But the last arc just kills that careful pacing. Blowing away mountains casually and reality warping was pretty much bread and butter at the end. Last I seen of Sassy in Boruto, he's still pretty damn powerful. The only way I can see H taking this is if he's still immune to illusions. Power output wise, Sassy's best non illusion move is firebase, which can burn fire. Yet H has proven multiple times that hes straight up immune to most fire, and highly resistant to others. Add to it that he caught up to yusuke in the manga chapters after the final arc, when yusuke himself was casually blowing away mountains.... it's closer than it appears cause Sassy is still growing in Boruto, but if YYH was given similar treatment I'm certain that they would exceed even end of Z from dbz. The powerup was just that extreme.

[Iamyourking]

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Was I the only one who had to laugh when they said experience doesn't always trump raw power? I'm pretty sure the only time the weaker but more skilled combatant has ever won a Death Battle was Batman vs. Captain America.

[Reddish Mage]

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Was I the only one who had to laugh when they said experience doesn't always trump raw power? I'm pretty sure the only time the weaker but more skilled combatant has ever won a Death Battle was Batman vs. Captain America.

Experience difference has been referenced in a number of battles and cited as being big factor for a number. The problem is usually experience comes with a number of other bonuses like specific skills, precision, speed, and ability to predict the opponent and find weaknesses. I can't recall where it was clearly the one decisive factor. For example, experience was a big factor for the winner in Black Widow vs. Widowmaker (but also cites Black Widow's superior speed and precision).

Batman vs. Captain America wasn't really "experience." They cite a multitude of specific Batman skills and overall abilities. That includes stealth, gadgets, knowledge of pressure points and fighting styles, and so on. Its not simply a matter that Batman has fought a lot more.

There are a number of times where the most skilled opponent wins but that tends to be a battle of skills vs. skill (Solid Snake vs. Sam Fisher, Nightwing vs. Daredevil).

Still, it's not an awful lot of times that A SKILL beats RAW POWER in Deathbattle. There are times that whimsy beats raw power (Kirby vs. Buu),there are a lot more cases where some sort of ability or gimmick beats raw power (Hulk vs. Doomsday; Dante vs. Bayonetta), but I can't think of where it was really a matter of skill, not something superhuman, supernatural or otherwise reality breaking, winning.

[Lemmy]

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Was I the only one who had to laugh when they said experience doesn't always trump raw power? I'm pretty sure the only time the weaker but more skilled combatant has ever won a Death Battle was Batman vs. Captain America.

I think the issue here is that most of the time, the disparity in raw power is absurdly wide.

Sure... Experience and technique could maybe allow you to beat a guy who's 2 or 3x stronger than you... But it won't count for much when the other guy is hundreds of time faster, stronger and more durable than you.

[Reddish Mage]

Sure... Experience and technique could maybe allow you to beat a guy who's 2 or 3x stronger than you... But it won't count for much when the other guy is hundreds of time faster, stronger and more durable than you.

Don't even try to give numbers like that. In real life, experience and technique don't even stretch that far in official fighting matches (at least not when opponents are both at the highest levels). In the end the faster, stronger, more robust fighter usually wins over the weaker experienced one. However, in real real life experience and technique can be far more decisive because you can bring in factors such as surprise, or environment, and weapons that can remove any form of physical superiority.

However, we are talking about many different fantasy worlds full of superheroes, freaks, and assorted bag of cartoon misfits. Technique and experience can do a lot of things, whatever the author wants it to really. For Batman, his skillset lets him steal Green Lantern's ring, ambush the Flash, and take down Superman. Deathstroke's superpowers aren't anywhere near the heights of most individual superheroes, but he takes on seven of the JLA in one go. Captain Boomerang has no superpowers but can still hit The Flash, yes The Flash, with a boomerang.

Of course, in all of the above cases, the character has prior knowledge of his opponent and perhaps prep time. Those things that are against DB rules.

[Forum Explorer]

Still, it's not an awful lot of times that A SKILL beats RAW POWER in Deathbattle. There are times that whimsy beats raw power (Kirby vs. Buu),there are a lot more cases where some sort of ability or gimmick beats raw power (Hulk vs. Doomsday; Dante vs. Bayonetta), but I can't think of where it was really a matter of skill, not something superhuman, supernatural or otherwise reality breaking, winning.

I think that's partially because Death Battle chooses their opponents based on theme. So they might have two similarly powered characters or two similarly skilled characters, but rarely do they have a case where one character is super skilled and the other is super strong. The closest I can think of is Link vs Cloud, where Link is called as winning because he is more experienced.

[Reddish Mage]

I think that's partially because Death Battle chooses their opponents based on theme. So they might have two similarly powered characters or two similarly skilled characters, but rarely do they have a case where one character is super skilled and the other is super strong. The closest I can think of is Link vs Cloud, where Link is called as winning because he is more experienced.

You had Batman vs. Spider-Man but there they treat Spider-Man as having nearly as much experience over his own continuity and as having mastery of his own "spider-fu" that is superior to Batman's knowledge of every single martial art. Spider-Man is not just stronger, but much faster and his spider-sense, taken at its best, is pretty much a form of future-sight that tells Spidey exactly what's coming. Oh and Spidey is pretty damn smart too.

The analysis allows that Batman could defeat much more powerful opponents (like he does), just not a character that is almost as skilled and experienced as him and also super and also has a mystical-like ability to know what you are about to do.

I recall they allow Link experience, but that's on top of his impressive arsenal by taking (some of) the best from multiple games, where they give Cloud only his "iconic" gear and abilities. They said in the video it was the "closest battle in Deathbattle history." We've discussed the reasoning behind giving Link generations of gear and abilities while Cloud gets the meager portion he got. As we've rehashed that battle to death, the less said of Link vs. Cloud the better.

I note DBX (the no rules spin-off of Deathbattle) had Chun-Li beat Tifa. Seriously, I know its no rules, but Chun-Li!!! Note her analysis here.

[Forum Explorer]

You had Batman vs. Spider-Man but there they treat Spider-Man as having nearly as much experience over his own continuity and as having mastery of his own "spider-fu" that is superior to Batman's knowledge of every single martial art. Spider-Man is not just stronger, but much faster and his spider-sense, taken at its best, is pretty much a form of future-sight that tells Spidey exactly what's coming. Oh and Spidey is pretty damn smart too.

The analysis allows that Batman could defeat much more powerful opponents (like he does), just not a character that is almost as skilled and experienced as him and also super and also has a mystical-like ability to know what you are about to do.

I recall they allow Link experience, but that's on top of his impressive arsenal by taking (some of) the best from multiple games, where they give Cloud only his "iconic" gear and abilities. They said in the video it was the "closest battle in Deathbattle history." We've discussed the reasoning behind giving Link generations of gear and abilities while Cloud gets the meager portion he got. As we've rehashed that battle to death, the less said of Link vs. Cloud the better.

I note DBX (the no rules spin-off of Deathbattle) had Chun-Li beat Tifa. Seriously, I know its no rules, but Chun-Li!!! Note her analysis here.

Spiderman vs Batman is certainly a case of power(s) trumping skill. Batman won in skill and experience, but Spiderman was stronger, faster, has the BS Spider Sense, and isn't exactly lacking in skill or experience.


I'd actually disagree about them taking any of the best stuff for Link. But sure, we can not talk about it. Though I'd rather rehash Link vs Cloud again then talk about Goku vs Superman.

So moving to a different old episode, I'm still really annoyed by Zelda vs Peach. And for more then just the BS calculation they used for Peach's kick. They basically ignore Zelda's fighting feats while giving Peach full credit for things like Mario Party.

[Rater202]

I think that Spider-Man has Batman trumped in skill, if not experience.

People forget his one a lot, but Peter Parker is canonically one of the smartest people inthe marvel universe. He simply lacks the time and money to get multiple PHDs or invent a thousand gadgets.

Remember: He defeated the Vulture the first time by inventing a handheld device that gives absolute control of Electromagnatism within a specific area and that device has been referenced as recently as 2014 so it's still canon.

He did this out of scrap parts he just happened to have around.

So in terms of "gadget building," Spidey has Batman beat.

[Reddish Mage]

So moving to a different old episode, I'm still really annoyed by Zelda vs Peach. And for more then just the BS calculation they used for Peach's kick. They basically ignore Zelda's fighting feats while giving Peach full credit for things like Mario Party.

I mean if that's what you find annoying, feel free. However, that one has perfectly reasonable explanation as Zelda is much more grounded in realism regarding what she can do. Peach, in contrast, has a lot of ridiculous cartoonish superpowers.

We see that Deathbattle takes absurd showings of cartoonish power seriously. Peach's vibe powers and heart powers are just absurd in the way they work.


I would have liked to see more of Zelda's powers. I agree the calculations are silly here (and in other places), and moreover, we don't see a demonstration of what sort of things Zelda can take (when possessed by Ganon that includes quite the onslaught of her own magic). There is comics and other material they could have used in addition to what they had. However, I don't think it would change the outcome.

They also omitted a lot of Peach's games from the analysis, particularly the RPGs. Peach can carry items like Mario can and use them as well as he does. In fact, she would end up scaling to be close or equal to a lot of Mario's abilities (the Super Star works for her as well) and recall the recent Mario/Sonic battle.

I think that Spider-Man has Batman trumped in skill, if not experience.

People forget his one a lot, but Peter Parker is canonically one of the smartest people inthe marvel universe. He simply lacks the time and money to get multiple PHDs or invent a thousand gadgets.

Remember: He defeated the Vulture the first time by inventing a handheld device that gives absolute control of Electromagnatism within a specific area and that device has been referenced as recently as 2014 so it's still canon.

He did this out of scrap parts he just happened to have around.

So in terms of "gadget building," Spidey has Batman beat.

You explain that Peter Parker can invent impressive gadgets on the spot with scrap, which is pretty impressive. However, Batman is the world's greatest detective, he makes and customizes his own gear in many comics, which includes an awful lot of future oriented and super tech, and is basically is a scientific and technological genius in every relevant subject.

Peter Parker is up there in terms of smarts, but his universe has a surfeit of scientific geniuses that regularly produce super-tech greater than anything Peter has made. Batman designed and put together the Hellbat Armor, armor that he used to defeat Darkseid (using the JLA member's superpowers to get the components).

So no, Spider-Man does not beat Batman in the gadget department.

[Rater202]

1: Reed Richards has no idea how Spider-Man's Web-Fluid works and would like to learn it's secrets

2: Peter almost casually hacks into Stark Tech. During his time with the New Avengers, Peter was the designated "Science Guy" despite Stark being on the team.

3: Hank Pym is pissed off when he realizes that Peter's Spider-Tracers, which are keyed into his spider-sense, work on the same principle as Pym's own ant controlling helmet and that Peter's are better. That helmet was his life's work and a high school student on a shoestring budget did it better without even trying and doesn't even think it's that impressive.

So no, Spider-Man is not outclassed by others in his own universe int he gadget department.

Beyond that... Electromagnetism is one of the Four Fundamental Forces.

IT's one of four things that everything in the Universe runs on.

Peter Parker, while in high school, using only scraps, built a device that gives him absolute control over 1/4th of reality.

Does Batman have a comparable feat? Personally building such a device? And if so, how much did he spend to make it? Was it portable?

Because I don't recall him ever doing so.

[Forum Explorer]

I mean if that's what you find annoying, feel free. However, that one has perfectly reasonable explanation as Zelda is much more grounded in realism regarding what she can do. Peach, in contrast, has a lot of ridiculous cartoonish superpowers.

We see that Deathbattle takes absurd showings of cartoonish power seriously. Peach's vibe powers and heart powers are just absurd in the way they work.


I would have liked to see more of Zelda's powers. I agree the calculations are silly here (and in other places), and moreover, we don't see a demonstration of what sort of things Zelda can take (when possessed by Ganon that includes quite the onslaught of her own magic). There is comics and other material they could have used in addition to what they had. However, I don't think it would change the outcome.

They also omitted a lot of Peach's games from the analysis, particularly the RPGs. Peach can carry items like Mario can and use them as well as he does. In fact, she would end up scaling to be close or equal to a lot of Mario's abilities (the Super Star works for her as well) and recall the recent Mario/Sonic battle.

If that had been the argument, I could have accepted that. But they really half-assed it on that video. I mean, they looked at barely any of Zelda's feats to begin with and chose the most ridiculous of Peach's. Though if it came to straight power, yeah, I can see Zelda losing for the reasons you mentioned. But she can teleport, has been trained by ninja, and is a master archer. She could also wear Peach down and take her own with a barrage after barrage of arrows. And Peach doesn't have nearly as many feats in the games. Also Hyrule Warriors gave Zelda some pretty solid fighting feats, so I would like a rematch on that one.

[Reddish Mage]

If that had been the argument, I could have accepted that. But they really half-assed it on that video. I mean, they looked at barely any of Zelda's feats to begin with and chose the most ridiculous of Peach's. Though if it came to straight power, yeah, I can see Zelda losing for the reasons you mentioned. But she can teleport, has been trained by ninja, and is a master archer. She could also wear Peach down and take her own with a barrage after barrage of arrows. And Peach doesn't have nearly as many feats in the games. Also Hyrule Warriors gave Zelda some pretty solid fighting feats, so I would like a rematch on that one.

I don't disagree. This was not one of their better efforts.

Note: Hyrule Warriors came out 2014, AFTER this battle which was one of their first in 2012. It is also a licensed game, equivalent of using Mario's powers from Mario + Rabbids. The argument would be its "official[ly licensed] material" and anything noncontradictory can be used, but really everyone's abilities in that games is scaled up several notches so they can take on an entire armies in a way you cannot do in the mainline games.

[HolyDraconus]

I have to disagree Red. The main problem with Hyrule Warriors is that its supposedly referenced in future Zelda games in some shape or form. Wouldn't a footnote be enough to say "its canon" in this instance?

[Forum Explorer]

I don't disagree. This was not one of their better efforts.

Note: Hyrule Warriors came out 2014, AFTER this battle which was one of their first in 2012. It is also a licensed game, equivalent of using Mario's powers from Mario + Rabbids. The argument would be its "official[ly licensed] material" and anything noncontradictory can be used, but really everyone's abilities in that games is scaled up several notches so they can take on an entire armies in a way you cannot do in the mainline games.

Sure, which is why I would want it used in a rematch.

Yes, everyone is scaled up in it, but that's fair play for Death Battle considering it uses one off cut scenes to give durability feats in the killaton range when the character can also be instantly killed by a spike pit.

[Celestia]

I have to disagree Red. The main problem with Hyrule Warriors is that its supposedly referenced in future Zelda games in some shape or form. Wouldn't a footnote be enough to say "its canon" in this instance?

Hyrule Warriors is explicitly non-canon, which is a mistake in my opinion. Not only is it more than good enough to be canon, in my opinion, but it would also fix their timeline mishap with Breath of the Wild. Currently, the timeline is completely broken and doesn't make sense because of that game. Hyrule Warriors, though, would patch it all up nicely.

[Reddish Mage]

Yes, everyone is scaled up in it, but that's fair play for Death Battle considering it uses one off cut scenes to give durability feats in the killaton range when the character can also be instantly killed by a spike pit.

We’ve been over that. If you literally interpret every game mechanic both Superman and Goku are easily killable by street mooks based on what could happen to their level one avatar in some licensed game.

The argument can be made the cut scenes are the definitive depiction, and are certainly the instances where they are “at their best” (now DB rule #3) and is definitely canon.

I say go ahead and use Hyrule Warriors ...because it won’t make a difference.

[Lord Raziere]

We’ve been over that. If you literally interpret every game mechanic both Superman and Goku are easily killable by street mooks based on what could happen to their level one avatar in some licensed game.

Honestly Goku and Superman or Superman shouldn't have such leveling mechanics attached to them, because I like the idea of those guys having a game where they start at max power and having to regulate their level to fit the threat they face, or they destroy the world around them. make it clear they are as powerful as they ever need to be, but that their real challenge is figuring how MUCH power they need during this specific moment to solve a problem and putting in too much energy is just as bad as too little.

with open world potential for like someone to just ignore the responsibilities and just do whatever with your powers, abusing it as much as you like so you can explore what happens if Superman or Goku ISN'T responsible with their power. that would be great.

as for Zelda timeline stuff, why can't you just call Breath of the Wild a canonical parallel universe if it doesn't fit?

[Forum Explorer]

We’ve been over that. If you literally interpret every game mechanic both Superman and Goku are easily killable by street mooks based on what could happen to their level one avatar in some licensed game.

The argument can be made the cut scenes are the definitive depiction, and are certainly the instances where they are “at their best” (now DB rule #3) and is definitely canon.

I say go ahead and use Hyrule Warriors ...because it won’t make a difference.

That becomes trickier with Video Game characters who 90% of the time are operating under those rules, and then only very occasionally manage to survive much deadlier blows.

[Delicious Taffy]

Currently, the timeline is completely broken and doesn't make sense because of that game.

The timeline doesn't matter. All of the Links and Zeldas are explicitly the same person.

[Rynjin]

The timeline doesn't matter. All of the Links and Zeldas are explicitly the same person.

That's incorrect. Ganon is the only one that is the same guy in every game. Link and Zelda reincarnate as new people.

[Delicious Taffy]

That's incorrect. Ganon is the only one that is the same guy in every game. Link and Zelda reincarnate as new people.

Yeah, they all reincarnate after death. That's what I meant by them being the same person.

[Reddish Mage]

Sure, which is why I would want it used in a rematch.

Yes, everyone is scaled up in it, but that's fair play for Death Battle considering it uses one off cut scenes to give durability feats in the killaton range when the character can also be instantly killed by a spike pit.

That becomes trickier with Video Game characters who 90% of the time are operating under those rules, and then only very occasionally manage to survive much deadlier blows.

Why? The rule is “at their best.” It’s straightforward to apply.

The game mechanic, often times, is the problem. It’s hard just to think about how to apply it in a semi-realistic 3D fighting environment. What do you do with characters that have hearts, ANY BLOW, no matter how strong, will take away one heart, then they get a period of invincibility? Oh but the spike pit is the exception that results in instant death.

You make it sounds like you ignore the cut scene and everything else just to focus on the spike pit....

Yeah, they all reincarnate after death. That's what I meant by them being the same person.

Philosophically dicey but ok. People want to put all the games on a single timeline or set of them, since it was done in a book labeled official.

The official timeline wasn’t the most straightforward way to do it, and it really is unnecessary as it has not been relevant to the individual games. However, it’s no less noble an activity than figuring out which video game character wins in a deathbattle.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, they all reincarnate after death. That's what I meant by them being the same person.

That gets weird though, because they don't necessarily have all the memories of past incarnations. I mean, Zelda at least has dramatically different personalities in some games.

Why? The rule is “at their best.” It’s straightforward to apply.

The game mechanic, often times, is the problem. It’s hard just to think about how to apply it in a semi-realistic 3D fighting environment. What do you do with characters that have hearts, ANY BLOW, no matter how strong, will take away one heart, then they get a period of invincibility? Oh but the spike pit is the exception that results in instant death.

You make it sounds like you ignore the cut scene and everything else just to focus on the spike pit....

I never liked the 'at their best' rule because of some really dumb outliers. Like Donkey Kong throwing the moon, or Mario surviving a stadium shattering explosion.

That being said, I don't like taking the weakest point either. I feel it's better to look at things as 'what is a threat to these characters?' Using Mario for example, sure he can survive falling from a mountain top, but at the same time, a goomba hitting him still hurts. He can't just ignore those hits, and he can be worn down. I mean, these characters already blatantly ignore physics, why not have them operate under different rules of durability?

[Rynjin]

Yeah, they all reincarnate after death. That's what I meant by them being the same person.

Ganon doesn't reincarnate. He is canonically 100% the literal same guy every time, since he never actually dies (until he does) he just gets sealed and kicked down the road a few thousand years until the next time he's sealed.

Link and Zelda reincarnate, but they're not the same people. They have completely different personalities and experiences in each of their incarnations.

[Seppl]

I never liked the 'at their best' rule because of some really dumb outliers. Like Donkey Kong throwing the moon, or Mario surviving a stadium shattering explosion.

While it leads to weirdness, this is the one rule you can make that can be applied objectively. For all other rules you would have to say where you draw the line and why.

Also, for me at least, this is half the fun of Death Battle. I want to know about these weird things the characters did that I did not yet know about, and see how they play out if taken seriously.