Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Lord Raziere]

"Why can't Superman beat magic-powered Knock Off Superman that DC won in a lawsuit" seems like a silly question to be asking.

It's like asking "Why can't Batman beat a Batman that's exactly the same except he's willing to use lethal force."

Or "Why can't Goku beat a Goku thats exactly the same except he doesn't draw out fights and is completely pragmatic about winning as soon as possible."

Or "Why can't The Doctor beat the Doctor except he regularly uses guns."

Or "Why can't Majin Buu beat a Majin Buu that actually trained himself and helped out?"

Or "Why can't Rock Lee beat a Rock Lee that can't actually use Ninjutsu and Genjutsu?"

and so on...

[HolyDraconus]

I mean, it really depends on which version of Dracula you use; there's been hundreds, maybe thousands of different versions over the years. He's probably one of the most used characters around, and some versions are completely ridiculous. Like take Vampire Hunter D, where Dracula is basically a god. Ganondorf might be powerful, but he is definitely not a god. Now I imagine they're going to stick to the Castlevania games and not go into the massive publication history of Dracula, but we'll see.

I think they will stick to the games as well. Due entirely to ease of research.

[Reddish Mage]

Or "Why can't Goku beat a Goku thats exactly the same except he doesn't draw out fights and is completely pragmatic about winning as soon as possible."

Or "Why can't The Doctor beat the Doctor except he regularly uses guns."

Or "Why can't Majin Buu beat a Majin Buu that actually trained himself and helped out?"

Or "Why can't Rock Lee beat a Rock Lee that can't actually use Ninjutsu and Genjutsu?"

and so on...

1. Goku beats Goku who doesn’t draw out fights because the real Goku gained so many abilities and power ups precisely from drawing out fights.

2. The Doctor has beat more lethal versions of the Doctor, see the Valeyard.

3. Main Buu apparently trained himself so much he went back to sleep. If he wakes up he’d beat the heck out of the version that didn’t. However, this one is weak, I’m not sure where I got that explanation of Majin Buu’s sleep.

4. Rock Lee’s taijitsu is so powerful precisely because he can only do that one thing...there’s a whole thing about it.


Basically, all these examples have either been explained in the story as reasons for the character’s strength, or the character straight up fights a version of himself that has the better thing cited and won (The Doctor, Batman).

Superman also beats several “superior” versions of himself, including the one that doesn’t hold back and eliminates his opponents.

[Lord Raziere]

1. Goku beats Goku who doesn’t draw out fights because the real Goku gained so many abilities and power ups precisely from drawing out fights.

2. The Doctor has beat more lethal versions of the Doctor, see the Valeyard.

3. Main Buu apparently trained himself so much he went back to sleep. If he wakes up he’d beat the heck out of the version that didn’t. However, this one is weak, I’m not sure where I got that explanation of Majin Buu’s sleep.

4. Rock Lee’s taijitsu is so powerful precisely because he can only do that one thing...there’s a whole thing about it.


Basically, all these examples have either been explained in the story as reasons for the character’s strength, or the character straight up fights a version of himself that has the better thing cited and won (The Doctor, Batman).

Superman also beats several “superior” versions of himself, including the one that doesn’t hold back and eliminates his opponents.

1. Nope. Pragmatic Goku teleports behind before he powers up, already in his super form and blows a hole in Goku's chest before he gets going.

2. Nope. if the Doctor beat them, they're not a version The Doctor that is superior because they less limitations

4. and if if there was a version of him that could, they work hard enough to have BOTH, the great Taijutsu and other things

5. then those examples are plot armor, not real demonstrations of how somehow isn't holding back does better than someone who doesn't. violation of logic, doesn't count.

[HolyDraconus]

1. Nope. Pragmatic Goku teleports behind before he powers up, already in his super form and blows a hole in Goku's chest before he gets going.

2. Nope. if the Doctor beat them, they're not a version The Doctor that is superior because they less limitations

4. and if if there was a version of him that could, they work hard enough to have BOTH, the great Taijutsu and other things

5. then those examples are plot armor, not real demonstrations of how somehow isn't holding back does better than someone who doesn't. violation of logic, doesn't count.

Doesn't it stop being a violation when it becomes a norm? Superman has beaten literal dozens of people that are better than him and/or superior to him. Dozens. Gambit beat his power unlocked self from an alternate reality that was stronger than him. Sonic has not one but THREE clones running around that are supposed to be stronger than him that he regularly beats. In fact, the only time that the "hero" doesn't win in those instances is when they are need to lose to come back (the plot armor?) or the opponent is, in effect, a parody.

[Lord Raziere]

Doesn't it stop being a violation when it becomes a norm? Superman has beaten literal dozens of people that are better than him and/or superior to him. Dozens. Gambit beat his power unlocked self from an alternate reality that was stronger than him. Sonic has not one but THREE clones running around that are supposed to be stronger than him that he regularly beats. In fact, the only time that the "hero" doesn't win in those instances is when they are need to lose to come back (the plot armor?) or the opponent is, in effect, a parody.

No. it doesn't.

A common violation of logic is just a common violation of logic. I reject your appeal to popularity.

If someone beats someone superior to themselves, there is a only a couple possibilities why:
1. they're not actually superior, so the other version being superior is a straight up lie
2. they are superior but because they're main character they win, which is not a power
3. they use some exploit/smarts method to punch above their weight class to win, that the other version could've done as well if they are the same, so the only reason the superior version lost is stupidity for not seeing it, therefore if they can't see it, that means they aren't superior, because a superior version would see it to and counter it.

[Forum Explorer]

No. it doesn't.

A common violation of logic is just a common violation of logic. I reject your appeal to popularity.

If someone beats someone superior to themselves, there is a only a couple possibilities why:
1. they're not actually superior, so the other version being superior is a straight up lie
2. they are superior but because they're main character they win, which is not a power
3. they use some exploit/smarts method to punch above their weight class to win, that the other version could've done as well if they are the same, so the only reason the superior version lost is stupidity for not seeing it, therefore if they can't see it, that means they aren't superior, because a superior version would see it to and counter it.

3. is a valid strategy. Just because I pull off my plan first doesn't make them inferior or dumb. For that matter there is a 4th possibility, straight up luck.

[Lord Raziere]

3. is a valid strategy. Just because I pull off my plan first doesn't make them inferior or dumb. For that matter there is a 4th possibility, straight up luck.

3. if they are different this logic would hold, but this is a being that is supposed to an improved copy, so they should be able to think up anything you should be able to think up and counter it

4. thats plot armor unfortunately. in fiction there is no difference between luck and narrative intervention, because the author can't be truly random.

[Forum Explorer]

3. if they are different this logic would hold, but this is a being that is supposed to an improved copy, so they should be able to think up anything you should be able to think up and counter it

4. thats plot armor unfortunately. in fiction there is no difference between luck and narrative intervention, because the author can't be truly random.

3. Not necessarily. Like lets say their improvement is that they are twice as strong as me. Sure, fair enough. I know that, and he knows that. So I go and get a gun. He does the same. At this point, his improvement doesn't matter anymore because neither of us are bullet proof, and being twice as strong doesn't make a difference if you get shot in the head. He isn't a better shot then me, so I'm just as likely to shoot him first as he is to me.

Now say that we start off with me closer to the gun then he is. Now I'm more likely to win, even though he is an improved copy of me. He might think of the plan at the same time, but circumstance still gives me the advantage on him. And that can apply to all sorts of things. Even a game like chess, the player who goes first actually has a minor advantage IIRC.

4. True enough. Though the author of Worm once famously rolled dice to see who would survive a monster attack, even for the main characters.

[Lord Raziere]

3. Not necessarily. Like lets say their improvement is that they are twice as strong as me. Sure, fair enough. I know that, and he knows that. So I go and get a gun. He does the same. At this point, his improvement doesn't matter anymore because neither of us are bullet proof, and being twice as strong doesn't make a difference if you get shot in the head. He isn't a better shot then me, so I'm just as likely to shoot him first as he is to me.

Now say that we start off with me closer to the gun then he is. Now I'm more likely to win, even though he is an improved copy of me. He might think of the plan at the same time, but circumstance still gives me the advantage on him. And that can apply to all sorts of things. Even a game like chess, the player who goes first actually has a minor advantage IIRC.

4. True enough. Though the author of Worm once famously rolled dice to see who would survive a monster attack, even for the main characters.

3. Or you spend time trying to awkwardly turn off the safety while they rush you and wrestle the gun out of your hand with their greater strength, or just break your hands. there is also no guarantee that the random gun is loaded, and good chances that its not loaded, because its left lying around.

4. which doesn't matter. whats in the story is in the story and it is set once it is. unless the author included a different version where they rolled differently, and plays that out, there is only version of the story and therefore one thing happened with no chance for anything different.

[Rynjin]

1. Nope. Pragmatic Goku teleports behind before he powers up, already in his super form and blows a hole in Goku's chest before he gets going.

How does "pragmatic Goku" get into his super forms without powering up?

[Kitten Champion]

I think they will stick to the games as well. Due entirely to ease of research.

Personally, I'm just curious if the Netflix series is applicable. Apparently Castlevania does have a concept of a canon - like the N64 games are non-canon according to the wiki and I presume Castlevania Judgement isn't either - so there are versions of Dracula that could be argued to not apply.

[Lord Raziere]

How does "pragmatic Goku" get into his super forms without powering up?

Easily. for something like Super Saiyan its not even a problem to turn it on like light nowadays.

[Forum Explorer]

3. Or you spend time trying to awkwardly turn off the safety while they rush you and wrestle the gun out of your hand with their greater strength, or just break your hands. there is also no guarantee that the random gun is loaded, and good chances that its not loaded, because its left lying around.

4. which doesn't matter. whats in the story is in the story and it is set once it is. unless the author included a different version where they rolled differently, and plays that out, there is only version of the story and therefore one thing happened with no chance for anything different.

3. That is possible sure. Though the gun might not be random, nor lying around. So it's equally possible that it's fully loaded, ready to go, and I shoot him easily. The point is that a correct strategy can overcome the superiority of the copy by rendering its superiority irrelevant, and that victory, therefore, is entirely possible.

4. I don't understand what you are saying here. Is it that the author always determines who wins in a fight so the whole conversation about hypothetical better versions of characters fighting themselves is entirely pointless?

[Lord Raziere]

3. That is possible sure. Though the gun might not be random, nor lying around. So it's equally possible that it's fully loaded, ready to go, and I shoot him easily. The point is that a correct strategy can overcome the superiority of the copy by rendering its superiority irrelevant, and that victory, therefore, is entirely possible.

4. I don't understand what you are saying here. Is it that the author always determines who wins in a fight so the whole conversation about hypothetical better versions of characters fighting themselves is entirely pointless?

3. you might also be in a country where guns aren't allowed to citizens, or the gun is a toy spray-painted look like a real one, or its filled with blanks, on top of the possibility of it not being loaded or not having the safety off, there are at least five possible scenarios where you lose compared to this one possibility where you win. your "correct" strategy is improbable and therefore not correct at all, given that there are more ways this can go wrong for you than right, and thats not counting the fact that your finger slips and you accidentally shoot yourself, so six ways, really.

4. Yes. because if they are superior, the versions by definition win and if they don't then its the author arbitrarily deciding the "inferior" version wins anyways. either way its stupid because your either stating the obvious in the former or being illogical and using the words "superior" and "inferior" wrong.

[Forum Explorer]

3. you might also be in a country where guns aren't allowed to citizens, or the gun is a toy spray-painted look like a real one, or its filled with blanks, on top of the possibility of it not being loaded or not having the safety off, there are at least five possible scenarios where you lose compared to this one possibility where you win. your "correct" strategy is improbable and therefore not correct at all, given that there are more ways this can go wrong for you than right, and thats not counting the fact that your finger slips and you accidentally shoot yourself, so six ways, really.

4. Yes. because if they are superior, the versions by definition win and if they don't then its the author arbitrarily deciding the "inferior" version wins anyways. either way its stupid because your either stating the obvious in the former or being illogical and using the words "superior" and "inferior" wrong.

3. It's an example. To prove a point. That it's possible for the inferior version to defeat the superior version. These are stories, not vs matches where things are set up to be fair. So long as the environment and tools are a factor, then the superior version isn't actually all that difficult to overcome. To use another example, he might be a superior version of me, but he doesn't have my friends. So we team up and beat the everloving crap out of him, because being twice as strong doesn't matter much when it is 5v1.

4. I'll agree that having the inferior version beat the superior version for no reason is bad writing (Looking at you Fate/Stay Night!). But I will say that the inferior can beat the superior when circumstances favor them. Like they have a better weapon (If a gun is really busting your balls, then lets say I found a spear. Whatever.), or they happen to be in a better location. Or they have preestablished resources the other does not.

Of course, you could argue that they aren't a true 'copy' then, but I'd say it's rare that the author actually describes them as a literal copy. They might be an evil clone or something, but that's not exactly a copy either is it?

[Lord Raziere]

3. It's an example. To prove a point. That it's possible for the inferior version to defeat the superior version. These are stories, not vs matches where things are set up to be fair. So long as the environment and tools are a factor, then the superior version isn't actually all that difficult to overcome. To use another example, he might be a superior version of me, but he doesn't have my friends. So we team up and beat the everloving crap out of him, because being twice as strong doesn't matter much when it is 5v1.

4. I'll agree that having the inferior version beat the superior version for no reason is bad writing (Looking at you Fate/Stay Night!). But I will say that the inferior can beat the superior when circumstances favor them. Like they have a better weapon (If a gun is really busting your balls, then lets say I found a spear. Whatever.), or they happen to be in a better location. Or they have preestablished resources the other does not.

Of course, you could argue that they aren't a true 'copy' then, but I'd say it's rare that the author actually describes them as a literal copy. They might be an evil clone or something, but that's not exactly a copy either is it?

3. then the example only proves that the terms "inferior" and "superior" are inapplicable to said situation, as long as there is a scenario where the "superior" version isn't actually superior.

4. well of course they aren't a true copy, they're supposed to be an improved version of whatever you are! and if you have a bunch of circumstantial things that make you able to win, thats objectively being superior in that scenario, therefore the copy isn't superior and your misusing the terms.

[Forum Explorer]

3. then the example only proves that the terms "inferior" and "superior" are inapplicable to said situation, as long as there is a scenario where the "superior" version isn't actually superior.

4. well of course they aren't a true copy, they're supposed to be an improved version of whatever you are! and if you have a bunch of circumstantial things that make you able to win, thats objectively being superior in that scenario, therefore the copy isn't superior and your misusing the terms.

Sure. And again when we come to actual writing and stories we don't typically have 'superior Gandalf' vs Gandalf. The characters are present as people, not as battle contestants in a fair contest. Come to think of it, how did we even end up on this conversation. Oh well.

Anyways, if you want to define Superior as being better in every way at all times, then that's on you. This is a really pointless conversation, even for here.

[Lord Raziere]

Sure. And again when we come to actual writing and stories we don't typically have 'superior Gandalf' vs Gandalf. The characters are present as people, not as battle contestants in a fair contest. Come to think of it, how did we even end up on this conversation. Oh well.

Anyways, if you want to define Superior as being better in every way at all times, then that's on you. This is a really pointless conversation, even for here.

well yeah, thats my point. no one is superior at all times. everyone is people and if a "someone but superior" ever existed the first someone wouldn't win against them ever and to win against them is to prove that superiority doesn't actually exist which is a good thing.

[Forum Explorer]

well yeah, thats my point. no one is superior at all times. everyone is people and if a "someone but superior" ever existed the first someone wouldn't win against them ever and to win against them is to prove that superiority doesn't actually exist which is a good thing.

Cool........whelp, who would make a good Death Battle opponent for Esdeath?

[Rynjin]

Easily. for something like Super Saiyan its not even a problem to turn it on like light nowadays.

But regular SSJ isn't really worth much of a damn these days.

[Kitten Champion]

Cool........whelp, who would make a good Death Battle opponent for Esdeath?

Todoroki from BnHA and Rukia from Bleach would be workable choices.

If you want to move outside anime -- Elsa from Frozen would be fun. Also works in synergy with Frozen's sequel coming soon, if that matters.

[Forum Explorer]

Todoroki from BnHA and Rukia from Bleach would be workable choices.

If you want to move outside anime -- Elsa from Frozen would be fun. Also works in synergy with Frozen's sequel coming soon, if that matters.

Esdeath would destroy Todoroki. Rukia, maybe. What level does she reach in the end arc?

Elsa would be funny, but it's another easy win for Esdeath.

I was thinking Grey from Fairy Tail, because I know that reached some pretty silly levels eventually. But I'm not sure if he's at that point yet.

[Rynjin]

Todoroki from BnHA and Rukia from Bleach would be workable choices.

If you want to move outside anime -- Elsa from Frozen would be fun. Also works in synergy with Frozen's sequel coming soon, if that matters.

The "superhero training montage" in the original trailer amused me, so maybe the sequel will be action-y enough for us to get some kind of Elsa Death Battle.

What other battle princesses with superpowers are there?

She-Ra, maybe?

[Lord Raziere]

Cool........whelp, who would make a good Death Battle opponent for Esdeath?

*looks up who that is on a wiki page*

huh, stopping time, summon ice army, freeze entire continent to death....

I admit its a little hard. time stoppers are always kind of binary, the other two high feats can probably be matched or fought interestingly enough by any shonen character that trains or global but cosmic superheroes, its the time stopping that makes it tricky, because any entity that doesn't care about her time stopping she probably can't hurt in the first place, and any person that does care probably doesn't have a counter to it. I'll need to look at it more...

*looks at Demon's Extract wiki page*

lets see....okay so the time stop ability can only be used once a day, the user can only move for a short period of time, and its very taxing, and someone else has been shown to be able to adapt and move freely while its active, so that implies that its an effect that can be resisted and shaken off by someone. who is Incursio?

*looks at his page*

oh its another akame ga kill power. and.....apparently these Teigu are magical relics made by some empire, which makes these artificial tech or enchanted stuff to a degree. hm.

but yeah, if something can adapt to the time-stopping so they can move in it, I don't see why not other things can't as well if they're good enough. so if I were take a wild stab at it.....Naruto? he'd probably work, since he seems determined enough to adapt through the time stop, has regeneration powers just in case he can't, can counter ice army with clone army, and while he probably can't do anything about big ice storm, he is probably at the level of power where he could kill her in time for that storm to not last long unless that continent ice storm is super deadly and fast for some reason.

[Reddish Mage]

5. then those examples are plot armor, not real demonstrations of how somehow isn't holding back does better than someone who doesn't. violation of logic, doesn't count.

well yeah, thats my point. no one is superior at all times. everyone is people and if a "someone but superior" ever existed the first someone wouldn't win against them ever and to win against them is to prove that superiority doesn't actually exist which is a good thing.

These are contradictory statements. Also, it is not a violation of logic when the weaker beats the stronger...and it happens in comics and in drama all the time.

How you measure a character who regularly punches above their weight class is another matter entirely.

Personally, I'm just curious if the Netflix series is applicable. Apparently Castlevania does have a concept of a canon - like the N64 games are non-canon according to the wiki and I presume Castlevania Judgement isn't either - so there are versions of Dracula that could be argued to not apply.

Non-Canon does not mean disqualified from Death Battle. Why does this keep getting said?

“All Official Material is considered” is the official rule. Everything is fair game, Canon disqualifies non-canon material only when the latter contradicts canon. So Castlevania can bring in all sorts of non-canon feats but will settle final determinations like, I don’t know, the effect of holy water or crosses, based on the canon appearances.

[Lord Raziere]

Also, it is not a violation of logic when the weaker beats the stronger...and it happens in comics and in drama all the time.

How you measure a character who regularly punches above their weight class is another matter entirely.

1. Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean its logical. normal doesn't equal sensible. if people punched themselves in the face every day, that doesn't mean its logical.

2. You measure them by either acknowledging that they are NOT punching above their weight class at all, or all those cases where they do are nonsense. its pretty simple.

[Lemmy]

1. Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean its logical. normal doesn't equal sensible. if people punched themselves in the face every day, that doesn't mean its logical.

2. You measure them by either acknowledging that they are NOT punching above their weight class at all, or all those cases where they do are nonsense. its pretty simple.

Someone beating an stronger opponent isn't illogical or nonsensical... Just improbable. Sometimes they get lucky, or have a really good idea at the spur of the moment, or the opponent makes a mistake, etc.

[Lord Raziere]

Someone beating an stronger opponent isn't illogical or nonsensical... Just improbable. Sometimes they get lucky, or have a really good idea at the spur of the moment, or the opponent makes a mistake, etc.

Well yeah, just because they're stronger doesn't mean they're superior.

[Lemmy]

Well yeah, just because they're stronger doesn't mean they're superior.

It's also not illogical or nonsensical to defeat a superior opponent... Just improbable.