Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Rater202]

I would rather not have Carnage again on the account that Absolute Garbage was a horrible book written by someone who screwed over other titles to boost up its sales and couldn't even care enough to work with other writers and then had the nerve whining he is being pirated.

Check your facts: Absolute Carnage was originally intended to be contained entirely in Cates' run of Venom. Making it a huge event was corporate's call, and every tie-in for the storyline were self-contained one-shots or minis that were published separately from the ongoing titles of the characters in question that did not in any way impact the characters who starred in them or interrupt the flow of their current ongoing series. Several of those characters did not, in fact, even have ongoing titles at the time.

The exception is Spider-Man's tie-in, which was informaerated into Nick Spenser's Amazing Spider-Man run by furthering the plot with the Kindred and giving more hints as to who the Kindred is.

In other words, what you're complaining about Cates doing is something that never actually happened.

[HolyDraconus]

So could he fly in space at that point the death battle came out? Did he survive the heat of a star at that point? The gravitational force of a black hole at that point? If any of those answers is no, he would lose. Even though we ignoring the fact that Lucy molecularly resurrected someone at that point, so screwing with them is in her repertoire, she STILL has him beat in speed and range. Which is enough

[Man on Fire]

Check your facts: Absolute Carnage was originally intended to be contained entirely in Cates' run of Venom. Making it a huge event was corporate's call, and every tie-in for the storyline were self-contained one-shots or minis that were published separately from the ongoing titles of the characters in question that did not in any way impact the characters who starred in them or interrupt the flow of their current ongoing series. Several of those characters did not, in fact, even have ongoing titles at the time.

Except of course for Absolute Garbage: Miles Morales and Absolute Garbage: The immortal Hulk, which did screw up Miles and Hulk's books over. Making a tie-in, even as a one-shot, forced Al Ewing to break his promise to fans of having no crossovers and when you read it you can TELL he didn't want to do that issue. Launching a miniseries precisely about Miles forced his fans to choose whenever to buy it or Miles' own series, as many of them could not afford both books, a dilemma Hulk fans also had, but it was worse for Miles' whose series has weaker sales.

And when you read them you realize they're incomprehensible without reading main ABsolute Garbage miniseries, forcing you to go and buy that book, meaning that the two titles were messed with for no reason than to bloat the sales figures for an event book. And then Cates basically had disregarded all work put into those forced tie-ins out of his own ego, which feels insulting - not only he tricked people into buying a tie-in to his story, he then told them you need to buy his story to get it and then used that to mock how people who wrote them portray these characters.

[Rater202]

Miles' Mini has no impact on the story of Miles ongoing.

Hulk's one-shot has no impact on the story of Hulk's ongoing.

Both stories were published separately from the main title, which continued unimpeded.

Hell, Miles Absolute Carnage mini doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with the rest of the mini. The events of its first issue were contradicted by other issues published in the same week, there was literally no reason for Carnage to send Miles to attack Jameson since Jameson had never worn a symbiote, and the ending of the mini was contradicted by Miles next appearance in the actual event.

Both can be safely ignored without losing anything o value if one so desires., and I don't understand why someone who wasn't reading Absolute carnage would read a tie-in mini or Oneshot for Absolute Carnage.

"This one comic that's part of a huge event doesn't make sense if I didn't read the rest of the huge event" is a really silly argument to make, becuase the only reason to buy them is if you're reading the main event.

As for Ewing being forced to break his word about crossovers, blame that on Corporate, making absolute Carnage a big event wasn't Cates call. It's not fair to blame Cates for things that werren't his call.

[Lemmy]

Meh... Marvel comics have been mostly garbage for more than a few years now.

[Man on Fire]

Miles' Mini has no impact on the story of Miles ongoing.

Hulk's one-shot has no impact on the story of Hulk's ongoing.

Both stories were published separately from the main title, which continued unimpeded.

Hell, Miles Absolute Carnage mini doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with the rest of the mini. The events of its first issue were contradicted by other issues published in the same week, there was literally no reason for Carnage to send Miles to attack Jameson since Jameson had never worn a symbiote, and the ending of the mini was contradicted by Miles next appearance in the actual event.

Both can be safely ignored without losing anything o value if one so desires., and I don't understand why someone who wasn't reading Absolute carnage would read a tie-in mini or Oneshot for Absolute Carnage.

"This one comic that's part of a huge event doesn't make sense if I didn't read the rest of the huge event" is a really silly argument to make, becuase the only reason to buy them is if you're reading the main event.

As for Ewing being forced to break his word about crossovers, blame that on Corporate, making absolute Carnage a big event wasn't Cates call. It's not fair to blame Cates for things that werren't his call.

Miles mini and hulk one-shot were still posing the readers with a dilemma about what to buy - them or the main series, meaning it hurt sales of those books anyway. And you know why people would want to buy these tie-ins without buying the main story? Because it's starring characters whose stories they follow, by writers who write these stories. People bought them hoping for more of what their books are and got "buy this garbage mini you didn't want to understand what is ging on".

And Cates contradicting Miles' book is exactly why I'm so pissed at him. Not only has he forced Ahmed to make that stupid tie-in, but then he basically pissed on his writing with his horrible macho posturing. Ahmed writes Miles his fans want, a kid who gets over his head but keeps fighting. Cates writes Miles as goddam testosterone overdosing macho throwing one-liners and him being disrespectful to work of a writer he forced to take part in his stupid event only shows what kind of ego he has. Not to mention Cates contradicted what Ahmed wrote to replace it with something worse to the point of being nonsensical and stupid. Him then contradicting the ending of Miles' miniseries looks like another ego-driven move, as if he was mad anyone of the heroes he dragged into this was allowed to do anything and didn't need Eddie to save them.

"Both can be safely ignored without losing anything o value if one so desires" wouldn't be a problem if those weren't the ONLY GOOD PARTS OF THIS EVENT!

[Rater202]

1: For the third time, Cates did not force people to write for his event. It wasn't even supposed to be an event. Corporate took his proposed storyline and expanded it out. If anyone forced Amed to write a mini for Absolute carnage, it was corporate, not cates.

2: Look at the facts: Absolute Carnage #1 and absolute Carnage; Miles Morales #1 were published in the same week and depicted the same events... With radically different dialog and positioning. Despite it having been well established that this wasn't a random murder spree, after using a piece of Grendal to possess Miles, he sent him to murder J. Jonah. Jameson. Even though Jameson wasn't a target of the rampage, as he had never worn a symbiote and thus killing him offers Carnage no benefit to his overall goal of absorbing enough symbiote codices to become a God and free Knull so they can go on an intergalactic murder spree. It'd previously been established that the only way to resist being controlled by Knull is to not be part of the symbiote hivemind or to have yur connection to it burned out, so the ending where Miles takes control of the piece of Grendal he's been bonded with to track the rest of Carnage's activities through the hivemind was doomed to failure from the start.

It is far, far more likely that there was some breakdown in communication when explaining to Ahmed what was being done and he just wrote whatever without concern for how it interfaced with the main story.

3: "Nothing of value" was referring to the ongoing runs of the characters involved, not the event. You can not read Absolute Carnage: Immortal Hulk and you aren't missing anything from the Immortal Hulk title. Same with Miles.

4: Again, there is no good reason to spend money on a tie-in one-shot over the main book if you're not reading the rest of the event. If you're not prepared to read the whole event, there's no reason to buy the tie-in. It's not like the tie-ins were published as part of the main ongoing, all of the tie-ins are completely separate from their ongoings and are auxiliary to them.

It's not on Cates if people who can only afford to buy one comic a month bought a one-shot they have no context for instead of the next issue of the ongoing they've been following. It's on those people, maybe on Marvel for blowing what was supposed to be five issues of Venom volume 4 into three issues of Venom, two of Spider-Man, a five-issue mini, four three-issue side-minis, and 12 one-shots.

I'm sorry that the event wasn' to your taste, but it's not Cates fault that corporate expanded his storyline into a major event and then didn't let him keep the promises they let him make about it.

[Man on Fire]

1: For the third time, Cates did not force people to write for his event. It wasn't even supposed to be an event. Corporate took his proposed storyline and expanded it out. If anyone forced Amed to write a mini for Absolute carnage, it was corporate, not cates.

2: Look at the facts: Absolute Carnage #1 and absolute Carnage; Miles Morales #1 were published in the same week and depicted the same events... With radically different dialog and positioning. Despite it having been well established that this wasn't a random murder spree, after using a piece of Grendal to possess Miles, he sent him to murder J. Jonah. Jameson. Even though Jameson wasn't a target of the rampage, as he had never worn a symbiote and thus killing him offers Carnage no benefit to his overall goal of absorbing enough symbiote codices to become a God and free Knull so they can go on an intergalactic murder spree. It'd previously been established that the only way to resist being controlled by Knull is to not be part of the symbiote hivemind or to have yur connection to it burned out, so the ending where Miles takes control of the piece of Grendal he's been bonded with to track the rest of Carnage's activities through the hivemind was doomed to failure from the start.

It is far, far more likely that there was some breakdown in communication when explaining to Ahmed what was being done and he just wrote whatever without concern for how it interfaced with the main story.

3: "Nothing of value" was referring to the ongoing runs of the characters involved, not the event. You can not read Absolute Carnage: Immortal Hulk and you aren't missing anything from the Immortal Hulk title. Same with Miles.

4: Again, there is no good reason to spend money on a tie-in one-shot over the main book if you're not reading the rest of the event. If you're not prepared to read the whole event, there's no reason to buy the tie-in. It's not like the tie-ins were published as part of the main ongoing, all of the tie-ins are completely separate from their ongoings and are auxiliary to them.

It's not on Cates if people who can only afford to buy one comic a month bought a one-shot they have no context for instead of the next issue of the ongoing they've been following. It's on those people, maybe on Marvel for blowing what was supposed to be five issues of Venom volume 4 into three issues of Venom, two of Spider-Man, a five-issue mini, four three-issue side-minis, and 12 one-shots.

I'm sorry that the event wasn' to your taste, but it's not Cates fault that corporate expanded his storyline into a major event and then didn't let him keep the promises they let him make about it.

Listen, if Cates forced other writers into this mess, he should have ensured to respect the work they put into trying to make his sorry excuse of an event bearable. He didn't/ That speaks to me more of his ego and lack of respect than anything else. ESPECIALLY when what Ahmed wrote was much better. And you don't just put out issues with same writers and titles as Miles and Hulk's current books and expect people to NOT think these are important. Which makes the whole thing feels extra manipulative to get people's money. People were tricked to buy tie-ins that make no sense without Donny Cate's awful book to trick them to buy that to bloat sales. It's manipulative and shameless. And I don't care who you wanna push the blame on to defend your precious edgelord who didn't write almost anything of value for Marvel so far (I mean, Cosmic Ghost Rider is likely the worst character of the decade). I don't want Death Battle to go sing praises to a story built on screwing other creators over just because you are upset a bad, boring villain lost to an anime character.

And as for editorial, this isn't the first time screwing other writers over is attached to Donny Cates' name either. His Thanos book was ripped off from Jim Starlin pitch and he and editor Tom Brevoort would go behind Starlin's back to make it, while gaslighting him about his own book.

[Rater202]

Listen, if Cates forced other writers into this mess

Again, that wasn't his call. He wanted to do a self-contained storyline in his on ongoing. Corporate made the call to blow it up into a huge event. If anyone forced anyone, it was corporate, and by default I'd say that it's the responsibility of the people writing the tie-ins to make sure that what they're writing respects and fits in with the main work, not the author of the main work to change his entire storyline to accommodate someone writing something only tangentially related to the script.

[Man on Fire]

Again, that wasn't his call. He wanted to do a self-contained storyline in his on ongoing. Corporate made the call to blow it up into a huge event. If anyone forced anyone, it was corporate, and by default I'd say that it's the responsibility of the people writing the tie-ins to make sure that what they're writing respects and fits in with the main work, not the author of the main work to change his entire storyline to accommodate someone writing something only tangentially related to the script.

Go back and re-read that part were I say that a) this sure happens a lot with Cates, other writers being screwed by editorial for his benefit and b)doesn't matter anyway, the way the story and he himself treated other writers was appaling, the book was horrible and I refuse to see it being praised on a show I like just because you're mad a lame edgelord didn't win a stupid fight.

[HolyDraconus]

.... so YouTube comments are saying that All Might is getting smoked. Thoughts? The blurp been up.

[Forum Explorer]

.... so YouTube comments are saying that All Might is getting smoked. Thoughts? The blurp been up.

I think I agree. I'm pretty sure at one point Guy shatters a mountain. Mind you, he's in a full kamikaze mode when he does that, but he does still do it.

All Might might be able to shatter a mountain, but he never would, because he's a hero. And I mean that as more then just a protagonist. He takes great care in avoiding collateral damage as much as possible, and thus, he doesn't actually do stuff like destroying mountains.

But I don't think it's as clear cut as people say. There was that scene in the movie where All Might had to fight this metal generating monster, and that might equalize stuff a bit. Plus there's a graph that shows how much weaker he is from his prime at that moment. They might be able to extrapolate both of those to something truly insane.

Also MHA doesn't really have people charge up as much, and if I remember correctly, Guy's ultimate state actually does take some charge up time, so All Might might be able to prevent him from getting to that state, and All Might is certainly stronger than Guy's base form.

[Rynjin]

As far as I know the Gates don't have a "charge up time" as they are a Taijutsu technique, not a Ninjutsu one. They are instantly activated with a bit of a flex to show off their new might (optional but heavily encouraged). A quick wiki check shows that it is fast enough that Lee was able to open 3 Gates DURING the same combo (opening Gate 3 on initiating Reverse Lotus, Gate 4 during, and Gate 5 just before the finishing blow), so it must be incredibly fast.

The only real "charge up" equivalent is that you have to activate the Gates in order IIRC; you can't just jump from 0 to 8. Not that you'd want to.

Still, Guy's base form is already hella strong. Probably not anywhere near as strong as All Might but not weak enough to be instantly splattered either.

[Traab]

8 gates Gai is capable of kicking so hard it warps space. He is a sentient black hole of butt kicking power. I am calling it like this. All Might starts off absolutely stomping Gai. Gai opens gates 1-3, no change, all might is just overwhelmingly more powerful. Gates 4-7 things start to close up a bit, Gai is able to use his superior skill to offset all mights stat advantages and land hits, its still not enough to accomplish much. (I give the skill edge to gai because while all might IS a highly trained professional, taijutsu is basically the only thing gai ever does. Its his sole focus, his love, his purpose in life, so of course he will be better at it. ) 8th gate is when the whole game changes. At this point he is bare minimum all for one in their last fight levels of power with that air punch skill he has, and, as I said, he can kick hard enough to warp space. I foresee them going united states of smash versus night gai and night gai overwhelms all might, leaving gai the winner, just before he turns to ash. They will also possibly play with the timer both are working with. Gai can only have the gates open for so long before he collapses or dies, all might can only stay flexed for so long before he loses it all.

[HolyDraconus]

From what I'm reading up on, All Might may have the edge in durability and raw power. But Gai seems to have him beat in speed and technique. All Might has, on screen, K.O.'d an opponent that specifically was designed to best him, lifted a building and casually set it back down (think Fist of the North Star, except it doesn't break), created rain with his FISTS, created tornados with his FISTS. Suplexes someone so hard that an explosion was created, punches a tornado out of existence, has been crushed then skewered by metal... things, can jump high enough to catch a helicopter, leap far enough to clear a city and run faster than a speeding car.

In his youth, I really think that All Might would have this beyond in the bag, just with what was shown. Current tho? He should lose without any problem.

[Rynjin]

I definitely think this is, on paper, one of the most even matchups they've ever come up with, with both fighters having distinct edges. All Might probably has the edge in raw physical ability...but technically so did Madara and he got his ass whooped while being functionally immortal. If the 8 Gates didn't have a time limit before death sets in, he would have stood no chance, invincibility/intangibility or no.

An interesting wildcard option I don't know if they'll mention: Gai is a proficient ninja in ALL ninja techniques, being a very high ranked Jounin. While he doesn't display them often, he's not at all crippled in the same way his pupil Lee is; Gai is not only capable of performing Ninjutsu, but quite good at it, including advanced techniques like the Summoning Jutsu.

Apparently he has both Fire and Lightning Release but I think that comes purely from one of the databooks because it is never displayed in series IIRC, so may be disqualified as info.

[HolyDraconus]

I definitely think this is, on paper, one of the most even matchups they've ever come up with, with both fighters having distinct edges. All Might probably has the edge in raw physical ability...but technically so did Madara and he got his ass whooped while being functionally immortal. If the 8 Gates didn't have a time limit before death sets in, he would have stood no chance, invincibility/intangibility or no.

An interesting wildcard option I don't know if they'll mention: Gai is a proficient ninja in ALL ninja techniques, being a very high ranked Jounin. While he doesn't display them often, he's not at all crippled in the same way his pupil Lee is; Gai is not only capable of performing Ninjutsu, but quite good at it, including advanced techniques like the Summoning Jutsu.

Apparently he has both Fire and Lightning Release but I think that comes purely from one of the databooks because it is never displayed in series IIRC, so may be disqualified as info.

Its close, sure, but I honestly would give the match to either depending on a rainy day. Gai is still kicking in old age, and All Might is NOT.

[Lord Raziere]

they will make All-Might win on faulty logic that All-Might is MHA's Superman and therefore limitless in power because he has got all this stored power from previous heroes and therefore is like, eight times the full potential that Guy has who has only one full potential, while Gai is clearly an underdog who didn't even win against Madara who nearly died from doing that-he only survived because Naruto helped- while All-Might's OFA quirk causes less damage to the body given that he uses multiple times without any danger of dying, just injury, and of course All-Might's fights go faster while Gai takes time to actually get around to using his Eight Gates at all, they will discount Gai's numerous other ninja abilities as Rynjin says while giving All-Might the quirks Deku unlocked just because, and such.

[Rater202]

Only if they want to open themselves up to criticism by breaking their own rules again.

But I can't think that the only similarity between these two is that they have the name "Might" in their name.

Beyond that, they're just "hit things hard" types and those are a dime a dozen.

[Rynjin]

Only if they want to open themselves up to criticism by breaking their own rules again.

But I can't think that the only similarity between these two is that they have the name "Might" in their name.

Beyond that, they're just "hit things hard" types and those are a dime a dozen.

They are also two martially oriented mentor figures with at least partially misleading "eternal optimist" personas who started off as underdogs (one Quirk-less, one the son of a powerless disgrace) and through hard work and perseverance rose to the top echelons of their society, who have pupils who live in their shadow and (up to the current point in the MHA anime anyway) never surpass the full potential of themselves in their prime.

[Rater202]

They are also two martially oriented mentor figures with at least partially misleading "eternal optimist" personas who started off as underdogs (one Quirk-less, one the son of a powerless disgrace) and through hard work and perseverance rose to the top echelons of their society, who have pupils who live in their shadow and (up to the current point in the MHA anime anyway) never surpass the full potential of themselves in their prime.

Deku has tapped abilities of OFA that All Might didn't even know existed and uh... The story explicitly opens with Deku saying that we're reading the story of how he became the World's Greatest Hero. He's already surpassed All Might in one way and we have explicit confirmation that he will in others.

The only thing he has in common with Rock Lee is an association with the color green and a bad case of hero-worship.

[Lord Raziere]

The only thing he has in common with Rock Lee is an association with the color green and a bad case of hero-worship.

And not having quirk/ability to use genjutsu/ninjutsu. they were both disadvantaged and got an edge through the help of a mentor.

[Rynjin]

Deku has tapped abilities of OFA that All Might didn't even know existed and uh... The story explicitly opens with Deku saying that we're reading the story of how he became the World's Greatest Hero. He's already surpassed All Might in one way and we have explicit confirmation that he will in others.

That's part of the framing device, not the story itself. It's like saying that Kenichi isn't a wimp at the start of the series just because retroactively th series is framed as being his memoirs of his childhood after he becomes a true master.

The only thing he has in common with Rock Lee is an association with the color green and a bad case of hero-worship.

Plus a focus on hard work/training and becoming the best, a Lightning Bruiser battle style...and a really unfortunate fashion sense.

[HolyDraconus]

At one point after the injury all might comments that the crap he did to nomu wasn't anywhere near his best, stating that it was " 60 times weaker". Considering there's no on screen way to prove his best, and no way to (dis)prove his statement, how would that change things if they started taking people at their word? Like when Superman said hes lifting infinity?

[Forum Explorer]

At one point after the injury all might comments that the crap he did to nomu wasn't anywhere near his best, stating that it was " 60 times weaker". Considering there's no on screen way to prove his best, and no way to (dis)prove his statement, how would that change things if they started taking people at their word? Like when Superman said hes lifting infinity?

It's impossible to prove exactly how much weaker he is, but there is plenty of proof that he is weaker than his prime.

[Traab]

Both are the most ludicrously physically powerful fighters in their setting, both use a bright smile as one of their defining features and their personal philosophy on life, both are working under time limits, though in gais case its only when HE needs to go plus ultra Both are beloved father figure/mentors for kids who were terribly disadvantaged but determined to succeed in their field. Both had truly epic awe inspiring final battles that left them crippled to an extent. There are plenty of similarities to work with.

[Lemmy]

The only issue I have with Guy vs All Might is that it's basically taking a character at his peak and matching him against an opponent who's at his weakest.

All Might has never really shown his full potential in BnHA... In part because he's severely crippled and in part because he tries to avoid collateral damage.

IMO, this would be a better match once BnHA is near its end and/or we have seen more of pre-wound All Might.

[Lord Raziere]

The only issue I have with Guy vs All Might is that it's basically taking a character at his peak and matching him against an opponent who's at his weakest.

All Might has never really shown his full potential in BnHA... In part because he's severely crippled and in part because he tries to avoid collateral damage.

IMO, this would be a better match once BnHA is near its end and/or we have seen more of pre-wound All Might.

Which kind of says a lot about All Might, given that people are saying its so close that it could go either way (when they aren't just outright giving it to Gai). cause, Gai won't just be facing the MHA equivalent of himself....he will also be facing the MHA equivalent of "Even in my twilight years I took on two zombie kages and my crazy sannin student and pulled out some form of victory" Hiruzen Sarutobi, y'know the Third Hokage? because thats what All-Might is to everyone else in MHA. All-Might is basically what happens when you combine those two inspiring figures into one, then add in Captain America and Superman imagery on top of that. if this was an inspiring mentor/leader figure contest, Gai would lose instantly.

that said I doubt All-Might could beat Hiruzen. Hiruzen is simply far more flexible in his abilities and decades of experience over All-Might in his twilight years and was the God of Shinobi of his day in his prime, and if this was against the Third Hokage, Ol' Sarutobi would probably just win. the question is, could Might Guy beat Hiruzen? because if Might Guy can, then Might Guy can probably also beat All-Might. though I would be interested in an All-Might Vs. Hiruzen Sarutobi fight both in their twilight years because that would at least be fair about the fact these characters aren't at their peak.

[HolyDraconus]

Another thing I thought about is that, All Might is a hero. In that world, heroes don't lie. So they may very well take his statement about being so many times weaker at face value and multiply his on screen stats.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler of spoiler. Just saiyan.

Spoiler: The Winner is..

Show

Might Guy. Even taking All Might at his word, he can't beat Might Guy...... when he's scaled to Naruto.The fact that they had to resort to such makes the entire endeavor feel cheapened. Sure, All Might was scaled to what he said, but I felt that Guy had enough on screen feats to NOT need additional scaling in that manner. Especially since it goes back to the fact that the moon feat needs an * since it was hollow, and the light fang attack is suspect as well. To add to it, Guy technically DIED, with people in the comments section pointing out that it should of been a double K.O. going just off the visuals.

There is no next time, since the new season of it starts January 26, with the frequency going up to every two weeks..